Trains and frugality

Joe: Reservations are not open-ended. You reserve for a specific train at a specific time. If a given train requires a reservation, you can hop off, but to get on another train, you'll need a new res. if it's required, which means another fee. With 30 days, there's lots of room for spontaneity. Since you may need to reserve here and there anyway, you might consider pre-booking specific routes and then playing it by ear in between, which may also save you a lot of money. Let's say you travel from A'dam to Berlin on your global pass, and after Berlin you're on a train to Munich. Your train stops in Nuremberg, you look out the window, and N-berg looks fascinating, so you hop off. On a railpass, it costs you nothing more to hop off and back that day or later to get to Munich whenever. But what have you paid for all this once you reach Munich? If you spent 3 nights in A'dam and 3 in Berlin, then you're a week into your trip - 25% of your trip is over, and you've probably used 25% of your global railpass, or about $300. If you'd gotten advance-purchase tickets at www.bahn.de , you could have done A-dam to Berlin for 39 Euros, Berlin to Munich for 29. You forfeited a little of that ticket by jumping off in N'berg, and you need another ticket to continue, but that ticket will cost you only 21 Euros on a Bayern ticket single. The net cost of your spontaneous leap off the train is negligible when you compare your 1-week travel cost of 89 Euros to $300 for a railpass for 1 week. This is just one scenario, but it's not atypical. And there is no conductor guarding 1st class compartments all night. They just check tickets. And the fact that a railpass lets you on a night train doesn't mean you'll actually SLEEP on one. To save money, chuck the railpass idea. You'll likely arrive exhausted at your destination.

I agree with Russ. Second-class tickets bought ahead will likely be cheaper than a first-class pass. Further east you don't even need to buy ahead to beat a pass. Lots of info on types of trains here: http://seat61.com/ Your chance of actually sleeping if you don't get a couchette or sleeper are low. I use couchettes.

First, most ICE trains in Germany do not require reservations. Only a few ICE Sprinter trains do. Second, when I lived in western North Dakota I thought nothing of traveling for 26 hours in a reclining seat on Amtrak trains to Seattle or Portland. However, when I arrived, I could relax in a family member's home and didn't have to worry about having enough energy to enjoy sightseeing. When I took a night train in Europe, I appreciated being able to stretch out on a couchette bunk. And I recommend you go for 4-person couchettes. Much less crowded than the 6-person ones. Third, if being able to hop on and off several trains in one day and having a flexible travel schedule are truly important to you, then a pass is probably your best option. (And this comes from a person who nearly always recommends booking discount fare tickets in advance.) Fourth, popular night trains often sell out weeks in advance. If you wait until you're in Europe to book sleeping accommodations on them, you may be out of luck. For one $50 fee you can book reservations on all the trains you want at in-Europe prices at euraide.com. I would do that for at least your night trains. You can wait until you're in Europe to buy simple seat reservations on the fly, but don't forget that some trains (like Thalys trains between Amsterdam and Paris) charge a special fare for passholders that is more than just a seat reservation.

Answering your questions and commenting in your plan: - if you have a 1st class pass, you can't reserve a 2nd class. It is part of the financial caveat of the pass program: you are obliged to pay 1st class accommodation. - You always have to pay reservation for night trains, even if travelling on seats, I don't know of any night train in Western Europe where you can just jump and go (not that they don't exist somewhere). Those reservation fees can cost € 40 for a seat as in the case of Elypsos night trains in/out of Spain, for instance. Some seats sell out pretty quickly, with weeks in advance. Night trains are a niche market, they carry a very tiny fraction of odd travelers compared to low-cost airlines, so they fill out quickly. - in some countries, namely Spain and Italy, all but the regional trains require some sort of reservation. The "I'm travelling without a hurry" might mean taking 8h to travel Venice-Rome instead of 3h20. I don't know about Renfe, but I can assure you Trenitalia has been timing its regional services to make it a nightmare for people to avoid more expensive trains, e.g., timing the departure of a Bologna-Firenze slow train 4 minutes early than the arrival of a Padova-Bologna regional train, and routing some regional cars through some minor town, where you can't get connections if not waiting for 2 hours. - even if reservations are not that expensive (€ 10 in Italy, for instance), if you get off in the middle of the road, you lose your reservation, and need to pay it again to take another train. There is no such thing anymore as an "open choice" reservation where you only pay the supplement but take any train you want. You can check all the fees charged for night, day, domestic, international trains at this page.

"if you have a 1st class pass, you can't reserve a 2nd class" -Would you care to provide documentation for this claim? -I've checked the Eurail site fairly extensively, and nowhere do they explicitely say this. However they do explicitely say, "If you buy a 1st class pass, you can also travel in 2nd class. Would it make sense to allow you to travel in 2nd class, but not allow you to purchase reservation in 2nd class? What about the person who has a 1st class Global Eurail pass (1st class by default), and wants to reserve seats to sit with someone on a 2nd class youth pass. -Is this only true in certain countries? I do not think it is true for Germany. If you indicate that you have a 2nd class rail pass for Germany, RailEurope will only sell you a 2nd class reservation. But if you indicate your rail pass is 1st class, RailEurope will sell you a reservation for either 1st or 2nd class. (But, they are both for the same price. There would be no incentive for them to make you buy a reservation for 1st class.) -On the other hand, if you have a 1st class pass for France, RailEurope limits your reservations on their website to 1st class seats. But does a limit to what RailEurope will sell you apply to what you can't buy and use at the counter in France? -If you buy a reservation-only on the Bahn website, nowhere do they ask (or limit) what class your ticket (or pass) is? -If you buy a 1st class ticket online with the Bahn, and you want a reservation with it, the website sells 1st class reservations, for 3,50 (less than the 5,50 counter price), but that doesn't mean you can't purchase a 2nd class reservation separately, for €4,50 (but why would you?).

A first class pass allows for travel and reservations for any 2nd class seating. It's the opposite that is not possible. If frugality is an issue AND you are taking long trips, seriously consider several options. Discount airlines and even standard inter-European airlines typically offer better fares for long distances and get you there much faster. You miss scenary and the option of hoping off, but the savings can be significant. A pass can work well for long trips, even with reservations and can offer some flexibility, though mandatory reservations are making that harder. Advance purchase of individual tickets over the internet is making a pass harder to justify financially, though you lose flexibility and run a risk of missing a train for various reasons. Sleeping on trains 10 out of 30 days is a recipe for disaster. I didn't do that much even in college. And what little I've done lately has meant being very fatigued the following day. Unless you are a heavy sleeper under extreme conditions, you will not sleep in overnight seating. You'll barely sleep in couchettes. And frankly you miss out on cities at night and dining out. Limit overnight trains and consider flying for trips over 4-5 hours. And yes, all overnight trains require paid reservations. It's just cheaper to have only a seat.

First class passholders can DEFINITELY reserve seats in second class. I was forced to do this in Italy last year when I hadn't pre-reserved and the first class cars were sold out. In fact an entire train was sold out, and I had to wait an hour for the next train with available space ... a whole hour! :)

Lee, I just looked at the Länder-Tickets, those are some pretty good deals!
I might have to re-think the $1200 pass idea! I wonder if there are any deals like that for Switzerland, Italy and Austria.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm just weighing out my options between convenience and getting good value from a $1200 dollar pass. I plan on covering a lot of ground, but I'm not in a real hurry. For the most part, I just want to avoid being nickel and dimed for extras. I don't need speed, luxury, caviar & champagne and some guy to call me sir. I figure I'll just stick to trains that don't require reservations. I guess sleeping on the cheap in trains probably won't do. I was just figuring if within 30 days I wind up spending, say 10 days that I didn't use the rails, I'm losing $400. But If I can save on accommodations by sleeping "free", I can off-set the cost of the lost rail days. I looked at the Global Flex pass, but the cost of a 15 day within 2 months global pass is only about $30 savings. And my trip is only going to be 35 days. Also, I plan on going to more than 5 countries, so the select pass doesn't work for me. I thought about just going point- to- point with tickets. But after adding up the ticket prices. I don't think I'm that further ahead. I'm not really big of reserving advanced tickets, I would just want to walk up to the ticket window and buy a ticket for that train leaving in 15 minutes. Bottom line, I think if I stick with slower local and regional trains, I can avoid reservations, fancy extra luxuries, and I'm assuming expensive overpriced train food.
I might not get there at 300 km/h, but I will probably see a lot of interesting small towns, and I could always stop at a station for lunches and supper.

"I'm assuming expensive overpriced train food. " - you can always avoid that. Just board with your own food and drink.

"I figure I'll just stick to trains that don't require reservations. In Germany, almost all trains, even most ICEs, don't require reservations. If you want a reservation, just to assure having a seat, they are only €5,50 for pass holders, at the station. Some premium trains require a pricey "reservation" but they are not simply seat reservations. They are a supplement for a train not considered completely covered by the rail pass. You get a seat reservation when you pay the supplement because all seats on the train are reserved. You might not want a rail pass for all the days in Germany. If your travel can be by regional trains in a single German state, Länder-Tickets, on/off passes, sell for around €30 for up to five people. Some states sell the passes for €21 for a single person. The last time I bought food on a train was 1987. As long as you are not spending half a day on the same train (and you virtually can't with regional trains) you can grab a pre-made sandwich and a drink at the food kiosk in the station while you change trains.

I thought on one of your posts you indicated there were more than one of you traveling. But then, again, you mention getting a first class pass. If you were with someone, it would be a Saver pass. So, I don't know. Austrian Rail has only one deal I know of for travel within Austria. That's the Einfach-Raus-Ticket, for regional travel, On/Off, all over Austria, for 2-5 people for €28. Unfortunately, they don't let a single person use it. German Rail does have online, advance purchase Europe-Spezial tickets from/to anywhere in Germany to/from anywhere outside Germany, as long as the destination outside Germany is on a single rail connection. For instance, you can go from Füssen to Munich to Vienna, but not Munich to Linz to Vienna. Sometimes, you can make multiple connections in Switzerland, eg, Munich to Zurich to Interlaken. These fares start at €39, 92 days before travel and get more expensive as the cheaper fares sell out. I know there are discounted fares in Italy, but I don't know the details.

Deals in Switzerland are the Supersaver Tickets, and others such as the Zurich to Milan for 25 CHF deal. You can see these on the SBB website. Or if you will be there very long and riding the lifts and mountain trains, a Half-Fare card is good. In Italy the deals are the mini fares on Trenitalia. I think they are between 20 to 33% off. Advance purchase required, and seats are limited. Milan to Rome, for example, on the fast Freccia train, is 91 euro regular price, 73 mini price.