Train question - upcoming Italy and France trip - rail passes and Gotthard Panorama Express

Hi pcon. I can simplify a little. Don't buy a pass that includes Italy. Any pass including Italy would end up costing you way more and be a hassle. I'll let others comment on Switzerland. Enjoy your trip!

Probably a Swiss half price card would be the best option for Switzerland, and as Bob says, just buy normal tickets for Italy.
You need to make a spreadsheet listing all your trips in Switzerland with three columns: Full price, half price (+cost of half price card), and full Swiss Pass (pass cost only).
You can look up prices for each trip on the Swiss Federal Railways website: https://www.sbb.ch/en/
And don't forget to include for example under "Lucerne and local area", the cost of boat or local rail trips.
But most people report a Swiss half price ticket is the best option. Details are here (scroll down for "Swiss half fare card"): https://www.sbb.ch/en/leisure-holidays/travel-in-switzerland/international-guests.html

Are you saying that second class is not preferred? You gain little in first class other than wider seats and fewer people. We use 2nd class all the time. The easiest way to evaluate rail pass is daily cost. If it is five days of travel for $500, that is $100/day so you look at your five days of pass travel and piece it out. If the cost is more than $100 for that day then a pass would save money. But be sure to add in reservation fees.

Yes, prefer first class, at least for longer trips but especially for the scenic trains where it seems there are sometimes more panoramic viewing options. In my experience it's quieter and less crowded as well. Thanks for the replies, will look into the Swiss half price option as well.

The Half Price Card gets you half price on first or second class, for example, Bern to Zürich Flughafen (Zurich airport):

2nd class, full price: CHF 56, with half price card: CHF 28
1st class, full price: CHF 98, with half price card: CHF 49
2nd class is 2+2 seating, 1st class 2+1, with more legroom, so you are paying for ~50% more space.

Personally I don't go 1st class unless somebody else is paying, or I get a special offer, but it is your choice. If you are going first class, then a ½ price card is even more of a bargain, as you are saving more.

I'm a first class fan when it comes to train travel in Italy. Wider seats and fewer people. That also translates to more room for your luggage. The only time there was no room for our bags on an Italian train, the problem was an American family with gigantic cases in first class by mistake.

The premise of your question about the Gotthard Panorama Express is not correct. That link shows that the ride fully covered by a first-class Swiss Travel Pass, not requiring the supplement shown for Eurail brand passes, although you still pay the 24 franc seat reservation fee at www.sbb.ch/en, under the menu choice for Reservations. The train departs Lugano Mon-Fri only at 11:11.

The PDF brochure on the link above has this note: "Enter the place of departure (e.g. Luzern) and destination (e.g. Fluelen) as well as the date of travel and select the connection «EXT» from the list of options. Follow the menu navigation and continue to the booking."

To clarify, I was researching on http://www.raileurope.com The sbb.ch site was giving me such severe technical difficulties that I abandoned it as a resource, but thanks for the tip.

I am glad to see it is still possible to ride the scenic Gotthard Pass route with the spiral tunnels, rather than the deep and long Gotthard tunnel. The brochure looks similar to the one we picked up when we rode the now-defunct Cisalpino train from Zurich to Milan in 2005.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisalpino

I hope I still have that brochure somewhere.

About Passes---a "pure" Swiss Pass of some type works better in Switzerland than a two-country Eurail Pass. Just get Point-to -Point tickets for your Italy travels, and maybe a HalfFare card for Switzerland.

In case it helps anyone else, after doing all of the math to compare a two country "Select Pass" (both consecutive and non-consecutive versions) vs. all point to point tickets vs. The Swiss Travel Pass plus point to point for Italy, I ended up buying point to point tickets in Italy and a Swiss Half Fare Card for Switzerland. Which is pretty much what people recommended here, so thanks for the advice.