ted... I am so scared and overwhelmed!

(I have no idea why that title starts with Ted!! i think it said "getting started" and then cut off the begining. Sorry Ted if you were confused.)

I forgot to mention that we are both under 26 so we can get the youth Eurorail pass, but is that the best way to go?

Hey Lillie

I'm not Ted, but very soon now some VERY knowledgeable people are going to respond to your post.

They have "been there, done that", and they are a fantastic source of travel information.

If you haven't already done so, go to Plan Your Trip and The Graffiti Wall, and read. It will be well worth your while, I promise.

Have a great trip with your Sis!

B~

I'm not Ted either, but the first thing that I notice is you seem to be planning to cover a lot of ground in a relatively short amount of time. "Mid-May to the first week of June" sounds like 2-3 weeks to me. While it's certainly possible to start in Greece and go through Croatia, Italy and France in that time, you won't be spending a whole lot of time in any one place. You might consider either extending the time of your trip, or cutting out some planned stops.

You live the Seattle metro area. Rick's shows are on every day (sometimes more than once per day) on the 2 local PBS stations. My advice is to start watching them all (Tivo/DVR them if you can), and they should help give you a better idea of what interests you along your planned route (also watch for his "travel skills" episodes, very useful and practical info for someone who has never been there).

wow, 12 days in Italy is a lot. Perhaps on your route from Italy to Paris you could transit via Switzerland in the alps (Gimmelwald, Murren) and see scenery like you've never imagined. You know, there is a high speed train from Basel Switzerland to Paris.

Lillie,
You have come to the right place! This site houses a wealth of information for the rookie traveler. Don't be afraid to poke around and explore every corner of it. In preparing for my own European adventures, I've collected some additional sites that may be of use to you:


Flights

Inside Trip - compares flights not just on price but on reliability, comfort, speed, and other factors.

Sidestep: - good flight search engine

TSA Prohibited Items List

How to Survive Long Flights - advice from a guy who flies regularly between Australia and Los Angeles. He saved my last trip.


Helpful Forums

TripAdvisor Europe Forums - Good place for finding reviews, local recommendations

GuideforEurope Message Boards - will review and critique your itinerary at all stages

Student Universe Europe Forum - HQ for traveling young people.


Rail

How Railpasses Work - Railpass 101 from the site's namesake.

Eurail - official site for purchasing Rail Passes. Very thorough explanations included.

Other helpful pages about using trains and purchasing tickets - my favorite train sites.


Packing

Packing List for Women - good place to start.


Hope that helps.

I forgot to mention that we are both under 26 so we can get the youth Eurorail pass, but is that the best way to go?

Maybe. Sometimes point-to-point is cheaper. You will need to hammer out a more precise itinerary to determine which is the more economic choice.

It's great that you want to experience Europe, but it's pretty ambitious to start with somewhere like Croatia, where you most likely don't speak the language and transportation is less easily managed than in other places. Particularly since you say you are scared and overwhelmed, perhaps your first visit should be to locations that are less culturally different. International travel takes a lot of planning, energy, and time. I think you would be better off choosing one or two places to explore, and get used to what it's like to travel, before plunging into areas that are more difficult. The rest of Europe will still be there when you go back.

Start at your local library or bookstore and do plenty of reading and watching travel DVDs on the destinations you are interested in.

Rick Steves' "Europe Through The Back Door" is a good book for beginner travelers (regardless of where you go in the end). His country and city guides are great, but also look over other guidebooks - particularly "Rough Guide", "Lonely Planet" and "Let's Go" series of books (you'll get more recommendations on hostels).

"Globe Trekker" DVD series is terrific for people who want to travel budget and really go off the beaten path. They produce shows on both countries as well as larger foreign cities.

Don't buy any guidebooks until the 2009 versions are published (you can still get a lot of info from them and decide which ones you like best by just spending time at the library).

Create a draft of initial itinerary and try not to be overly ambitious. Unless you are just city hopping, 4 to 5 countries in 2-3 weeks is a little too much. Try to give yourself at least 7 days in 1 country and calculate all your travel times between countries or cities. VERY important to do this as switching locations can eat up the better part of a day leaving you with less time at your destination. Factor in time spent doing laundry, grocery shopping, etc. that can take you away from sightseeing. With lots of country changes, hostel stays and public transit, you want to pack light (1 backpack-forget rolling duffels) and stay mobile.

You may want to sign up for membership in Hostelling International which gives you discounted rates at member hostels and discounts on other goods and services. With 2 of you, also look into alternative lodging besides hostels. You can often find beds available to travelers in university dorms, monasteries/convents. Even B&Bs, guesthouses or short term apartment rentals can sometimes be economical for 2 sharing. Read lodging reviews on TripAdvisor, BUG Europe or Hostelworld.com

Thanks for all of the advice, I think we might leave Croatia for another trip to give us more time everywhere else. Its sad because what I have seen of Croatia is absolutely beautiful and a little different from every where else, but thats ok. It can be my honeymoon destination or something! :-)

So now we've got 3 weeks in 3 countries. would 5 days in Greece, 12 days in italy, and 4 days in France be a little more reasonable?

I have to respectfully disagree with Tim. If you are planning to visit several cities in Italy, 12 days is pretty good and not too long. If you do several of: Venice, Rome, Florence, Cinque Terre, Naples, and/or Milan, 12 days is barely even enough and that doesn't touch on all the smaller, charming towns or Sicily.

I don't know enough about the other areas, other than to say that 5 days in Greece is probably enough if you stick to a small area and don't hop around too many islands.

Maybe also consider the route you will take? I only mention this because at least for my area, it would likely be more expensive to fly to Greece rather than cities in France or Italy. This is not to say it would be the same for you. You may be able though to book stopovers that would allow you to hop through Italy or France on your way to Greece for example since they are more common European gateways for US flights. I am always budget-minded :)

First thing you need to do is get a good map of the area and note the mileage between towns so you can estimate travel time.

Allow 50 miles for an hour by auto or train; you can then tell how much time you will need for travel.

When you deduct that from the total time you plan for your trip you will know how much time you will have for each stop you make.

When you search for hostels, I always do a google search for "Athens hostels". Do the same for other towns.

I found the Victor Hugo Hostel which had the best food I found the week I was in Athens.

Instead of reading books, google "Athens sights" for all the information you need for that location; then do the same search for other places you plan to go.

thankyou so much Carl,
your post is extremely helpful, since I was just trying to figure out how long the travelling around would take! So thankyou, I appriciate it.

Lillie

I have to disagree with the allowing 50 miles per hour for train travel. Most countries have fast trains, some going up to 300 km an hour. Depending of course on which countries you are traveling thru. When considering flying or trains, time wise, figure in the amount of time spent getting to airports, most out of town as opposed to train stations, middle of town and the expense. Also, you can just hop on a train, at the airport you need to get there 2 hours early, and when you get off, take the time to get your luggage. There are the cheap airlines like Ryan Air, but all of their airports are way out of town. The one for Frankfurt is over an hour bus ride. Rome about the same. These of course are also not free. Trains are great unless you are really going long distance. Besides which you get to see the countryside.

My best advice for 'first time trippers':

1) Calm down.
2) Go for it.
3) Take out half your planned destinations.
4) Add 25% to 50% for your expected cost.
5) Read Europe Through the Back Door, and pick a 'pre-baked' itinerary from the list. You'll "plan your own trips" later -- lean on Rick and his staff the first time.

In your case, look at each major area as being only a stop or two. You won't be able to explore that much ground very well in only 3 weeks. For my money I would pick 1 stop in Croatia and bypass Italy on this trip. Look at Greece and France as your 'destinations' and Croatia as our 'vacation from your vacation'.

Lillie,

It's great that you're starting on your planning now, as it allows lots of time to work out the "fine details" (with help from the group here of course).

To begin with, I'd highly recommend that you read Rick's Europe Through The Back Door as it provides a LOT of great information, including Itinerary planning, transport options, lodgings, etc. Also, Rick holds Travel Festivals twice a year in Edmonds (usuallly Feb. / Mar.), and that would be an excellent time to gather information on the destinations you want to visit. It's also a great opportunity to speak with LOTS of experienced travellers - be sure to bring a note book and pen! There are also courses held at Edmonds throughout the year, usually on Saturdays. Check the main page of this site.

Also, could you confirm that your trip is only two-three weeks long (mid May to the first week of June). That will have a definite bearing on how many locations you can reasonably visit. One common trend, especially with "first timers", is an unrealistic expectation of how many cities they can visit in a specific time frame.

Could you confirm where you want to visit in Greece and for how long? If you only plan to visit Athens for a few days, I'd be tempted to drop that given the fact that Greece is a bit "distant" from your other destinations.

Using "open jaw" flights would be a really good idea, but you won't be able to buy tickets just yet. The tickets for May/June '09 probably won't be available until later this year. You'll need a fairly good idea of which cities you'll be visiting before you can work out the transportation options.

Once you have more a more specific Itinerary worked out, it will be much easier to provide more detailed information for you.

Hope this is some help?

Cheers!

I'm surprised no one mentioned getting a copy of "Europe Through The Back Door"....No, seriously, it is one of the few travel books that talks about how to travel, rather than just where. Good idea to drop Croatia for now, the problem would be that to get there from Greece is still difficult (just no good easy direct route) and you would chew up days travelling. A rail pass may not be very economic, Greece is very cheap buses and ferries, with few rail lines; Italy is cheap Rail, so Point to point may be best. For plane tickets; hard to say, hopefully fuel prices stabilize or drop a bit, I suggest strating now to price tickets, mainly to get a sense of costs. Some basic rules: Play with departure days, I find leaving on a Thursday and returning on a Monday give good prices. Second: As you compare prices, make sure all fees and taxes are included. These can add up to $200 or so to the ticket price, some sites include, others add on later in the process. Generally, I have found about 12 weeks ahead to purchase is about right, but if you see a good price (you have been looking and noting prices, right?) grab it! By leaving "mid-may", pay attention to differences in prices due to departure date. There is usually a price jump about that time, leaving a day or maybe a few days earlier might be cheaper (like leaving before the first part of June is cheaper, and mid-june, and July, etc.

Check the train schedules and routes out of Rome, Italy if you are going from there. We were going to go Rome, Florence, Venice, Cinque Terre then to the Tuscany area. When I looked at the train schedule it was going to take almost all day to go from Venice to Cinque Terre with a possible train change. I changed our B&B reservations to go Rome, Venice via Florence train station then back to Florence for a few days then on to Vernazza via LaSpezia train station changing trains there. It can be very overwhelming planning a 3rd or 4th trip to Europe so read as much as you can and don't plan too aggressively. You want to enjoy the towns you visit and not always be waiting for a bus or train. You are getting lots of good info here on the helpline. Enjoy your trip. We went to England/Wales for 3 weeks. WONDERFUL COUNTRIES!! London is great but you need at least 3 full days. If you arrive a town in the afternoon, you need another two or three FULL days, then leave town the next morning. Happy travels!!!