Night Train from Munich to Venice

According to the railpasses section at ricksteves.com, while you can buy a separate ticket for Munich-Venice DAY trains that pass through Austria, you cannot do that for NIGHT trains. Here is a quote:

"Crossing Austria on the Munich-Venice route costs about $30 additional in second class (separate ticket is an option on daytime trains, but you must have Austria on your pass for night trains)....Germany's CityNightLine trains and Germany-Italy night trains via Austria only accept passes that cover the whole route of your trip."

So... you can't take a train from Munich to Venice at night unless you buy a railpass?

That "quote" from the ETBD rail pass section disturbs me because I know it is wrong! I don't understand why ETBD would be spreading incorrect information! I might expect that of Rail Europe, but not ETBD.

A night train ticket consists of two parts, the rail portion, which can be covered by rail passes, tickets, etc, and the supplement or Aufpreis (reservation), which covers the accommodations. Reservations for a night train are not only available as a supplement to rail passes, but also with any valid tickets for that route and class of train.

I know this to be true based on email conversations I had a few years ago with CityNightLine.

Both the CityNightLine and the Bahn websites confirm this. For your own piece of mind, I suggest you call Nachtzugreise, the night train arm of German Rail, for confirmation. Their number in Germany (country code 49) is 1805 14 15 14.

From the CityNightLine website, www.citynightline.ch,

"Der Aufpreis gilt als Reservierung in Kombination mit jeder von den Bahnen anerkannten Fahrkarte, sofern Strecke und Klasse sowie bei Sparpreis-Angeboten die Zugnummer übereinstimmen."

Translation: "The surcharge is valid as reservation in combination with tickets recognize by each of the rail companies, as far as route and class - as well as with SparPreis offers, the train number - agree."

So it sounds like, since I messed up and didn't include Austria on my pass, for this night train, I will need:

• a regular ticket for my wife and I for the Austria portion of the train

• reservations and supplemental tickets for our T2 sleeper if we choose that.

Lee's comments are well taken. Sometimes it's best to go to the source rather than assuming that what you read even on ricksteves.com is accurate. However, before you pay for an international phone call, you might call the people at Budget Europe Travel Service (BETS), 800-441-9413, and see what information they have on the subject. After that, to be safe, calling Germany would be a good idea.

Bill,

One more thing. To answer your last question, you can buy a ticket on the Munich-Venice night train without having a pass. In fact, if you can get a SparNight fare, it's not all that much than the supplement you'd have to pay for accommodations with a pass. For example, the supplement for a T-2 sleeper with a pass is €65. The SparNight fare is €89.

To see this for yourself, go to http://buchung.nachtzugreise.de. Click on the British flag to view the site in English. Compare the price for "Accommodation surcharge only, ticket exits" with the SparNight fare.

Tim has a very good suggestion. Using the rail pass, adding Austria point-point, and paying the supplement for a double cabin would cost an additional €85 per person. If you can get the SparNight fare, it includes the rail and accommodations, and will only cost €89 - €4 more - and you get back the day of the rail pass to use some other time.

Note that the SparNight tickets are limited in quantity and sell out long before train time on this popular route. They should still be available for September, but don't wait too long. The supplemental fare for use with your rail pass is also limited. These often sell out a month or more in advance.

Further, if you move quickly, you might find a €32,50 pP Italien-SparPreis fare on a day train. That would cover the entire route from Munich to Venice for less than a day of your rail pass and the leg through Austria. The direct EC from Munich to Venice only takes 7 hours.

Thanks, Tim! Can you help me clear up a few more questions?

I checked out the website. It looks like I can get the sleeper with tickets for both of us for $178 euros. That's the ticket and the supplement, which means that I don't have to use my SelectPass, correct?

If I had bought the 4 country SelectPass, I would only have to pay $130 euros... BUT the 4th country would have cost us $100 US more. So it actually appears that I have saved money this way, and I also save a travel day on the SelectPass.

Do I have this right? Am I missing something.

Can this website sell me the tickets in the U.S.?

Thanks for all of your help.

It appears the SparNight fair is still available for the day we are traveling, I just have to go home tonight and confirm the day we are traveling, then I can order the tickets - assuming this site is one that I can get the tickets in the U.S.

I have known people who bought their tickets from Nachtzugreise. They printed the ticket on their home computer from a pdf file that was emailed to them. The Nachtzugreise website also allows you to practice printing a sample ticket. Note, to use the ticket you will probably have to have in your possession, as ID, the credit card that was used for the purchase.

Excellent! Thanks!

So, Bill's problem is solved by the SparNight fare, but we still have the question about whether you can use a combination of rail pass and point-point tickets. Has anyone talked to BETS? I have written a couple of emails to night train companies.

It occurred to me that the statements from the night train websites all refer to tickets, not passes. I don't know why a rail pass would be any less acceptable than a straight ticket, but I also know that the national rail companies in Europe don't like rail passes, and go out of their way to make using them difficult, like tightly limiting the number of "passholder fares" available on some trains. I have heard horror stories of pass holders having to wait for days to get out of Brussels because all the passholder fares on Thalys had already been taken for days.

On the other hand, it should also be noted that Rail Europe, the biggest seller of reservations, does not sell point-point tickets across Austria, from Kufstein to Brennero.

My conversation with CityNightLine was regarding whether or not you could travel on just a segment of a night train route using a point-point ticket and a supplement. For instance, Amsterdam to Zurich in an economy double is €139 full fare and €50 for the supplement, a difference of €89. If you were just going from Köln to Karlsruhe, the night train fares would be the same, but Köln to Karlsruhe, point to point, on the same train is €63. So I asked if I could use a point-point ticket and add the Aufpreis, and they said yes.

Bill,

Yes, if you book a regular or SparNight fare for the Munich-Venice night train, you will save a day on your select pass. If you do so at http://buchung.nachtzugreise.de, you can print your own tickets. Nothing further to do except to remember not to leave the tickets at home .

I think I now understand the reason for the confusion. When reserving night train accommodations for, for example, Cologne to Vienna on RAIL EUROPE, the following statement is seen, "A Passholder fare can be purchased in place of the full fare and is valid on the CNL train provided the pass covers the Entire journey." That is what Rail Europe says. Does that mean that RE will only sell you the reservation if you can show (bought from them?) that you have a rail pass for the entire stretch (ie, Germany and Austria)?

Or does it mean that CNL will only accept the reservations with a rail pass if it is for the entire stretch. I wrote to CNL yesterday, and their reply (next post) contradicts that theory.

Yesterday I sent the following email to CNL. "In order to travel with a supplement, for example from Cologne to Vienna, is one required to have a rail pass for the entire stretch (Germany and Austria), or can one use a German Rail pass plus a normal price ticket from Salzburg to Vienna?" That email was in German, but I am not going to bother to translate it here.

Their reply: "Gerne bestätige ich Ihnen, dass Sie lediglich einen Aufpreis benötigen, sofern Sie über eine Rail Pass für die Strecke in Deutschland und eine
Fahrkarte für die Strecke in Österreich benötigen."

I happily confirm to you that you simply need a supplement, provided that you need a rail pass for the stretch in Germany and a ticket for the stretch in Austria."

So there. You can use a stadard ticket, but Rail Europe won't sell you the reservation that way. In their defense, they probably do this to prevent you from showing up without the proper ticketing and blaming them.

Wow. This is so canfusing sometimes....

Anyway, I did get my T2 reservation and tickets last night for our night train to Venice - got the SparNight fair too, so thanks to all of you for the information!

I'm a bit disappointed that no one has continued this discussion, in particular by coming forward to confirm, based on real experience, that a standard ticket can or cannot be used with a supplement to fill in a railpass gap.

I have spent much of the last day digging through extensive German-language documents, including the 71-page “Conditions of Carriage for the use of Night Trains” to find the fine print on night train fares. Although I find the information inconclusive, I have established a few things.

I do know that while, at one time, the information on the ETBD website might have been correct, it no longer is. For CNL travel, you CAN obtain the supplementary fare (reservation) to go along with a railpass AND normal tickets. This fact was confirmed to me by email directly from CNL, at least for the route between Cologne and Vienna. You can also obtain “a” supplementary fare for travel between Munich and Italy with a railpass covering less than the entire route.

If you are interested in reading the original German text for the "Conditions of Carriage for Night Trains", email me directly for the link.

For EuroNight/DB Nachtzug trains between Germany and Italy (specifically Munich to Lugano, Florence, and Venice):
1. There are two Aufpreise (supplemental fares).
2. Aufpreis II is definitely available to someone with a railpass covering the entire route.
3. Aufpreis II is available for someone having only a railpass covering one of the countries.
4. Aufpreis II costs about €40 more than Aufpreis I.
5. Aufpreis II is not sold by Rail Europe. It is also not sold online on the Nachtzugreise website. You probably have to call them.
6. NO Aufpreis is available to someone with only standard tickets. Without a railpass of some kind, you have to pay full price.
7. I found the “conditions” inconclusive about whether someone can obtain Aufpreis I using a railpass and a point-point ticket that together cover the entire route.

Ops. My mis-type. The previous post should say, "Aufpreis I is definitely available to someone with a railpass covering the entire route."