More help with rail planning

1) Do these fares seem in line with your experiences in terms of cost?

2)Which site to use to book Brugge to Paris? I tried the Belgian Site, but all I got were Thallys fares. I'd prefer Lille(or would I?)

3) Switzerland-is probably best to do with a Swiss Pass? We will fly into Zurich, go to Lauterbrunnen for 3 days, go to top of both Schilthorn and Jungfrau lifts and use train to leave country. Best options here? I also was having difficulty planning the route back from Lauterbrunnen to Fussen, so help there would be great!

4)What are the Dauer Spezial tickets? Can I buy the Bayern when we're in Fussen for use the next day or order early? Do they have limits on the number sold?

I have a few other questions, but for sake of some brevity, I'll just start here! I'm guessing by the preliminary look of it, that buying separate tickets in advance will be way cheaper than the 10 day Flex Pass for 3 or 4 countries. Travel dates are set and it will be my wife and I ages 35/40..

If you stay in St. Goar rather than Bacharach, you will be inside the boundaries of the Verkehrsverbund (transit district) Rhein-Mosel (www.vrm-info.de, unfortunately all in German), and you can use a €17 Tageskarte (day ticket). That will give you unlimited travel throughout the entire transit district (click on "Liniennetz") for that day.

Thanks for the info Lee! We've already booked our stay in Bacharach(at Pension Lettie)so will probably keep that.

If I understand what you're saying, if we stayed in St. Goar we could use this ticket for our trip between St. Goar and Cochem, correct? I saw on the site they had a minigruppenkarte for 20euro (I found a link on the bottom left of the main page for English which helped)? Since I don't speak German, but could see it referenced 5 Personen I'm guessing that's for groups of 1-5 for a combined one day ticket at that price. If that were the case, could my wife and I just pay for a fare to St. Goar (3 euro each) and buy the minigruppenkarte for 20 euro to cover us both?

I have to say it makes my head want to explode trying to figure out all the options available besides regular tickets! That's why this site is great....so many people know all these other cheap routes and ticket options!

OK. I made the mistake of accepting your prices. Silly me. Bacharach to Cochem is only €16,10 2nd class, so you can do it for less without a VRN Tageskarte. Also note, that with a standard fare DB ticket, you have until the end of the day to finish your journey. Breaks are allowed. You could stop in Koblenz for a few hours on the way to Cochem.

The station at Bacharach is unmanned. There is a DB local train (Nahverkehr) automat, but no ticket counter.

The sale of Bayern-Tickets is unlimit, so you don't have to worry about them running out. The automat makes you select a date that you want to use the ticket, so you can buy it ahead. However, the Dauer-Spezial tickets can and do sell out. After the €29 tickets are gone, the price goes up to €39, then €49, etc. You need to get them well in advance.

Actually, the first stop in the VRN is Oberwesel, a €2 ea fare from Bacharach, so if you don't mind stopping there to use the automat, you can save €1 ea. However, if you are stopping in St. Goar anyway, it's probably not worth having to get off the train in Oberwesel to get the ticket, then waiting an hour for the next train. St. Goar and Rheinfels, BTW, are worth the stop.

Thanks Lee! Yes, shame on you for taking the word of a newbie on ticket prices! :-)

I think then our plan will be when we arrive in Fussen to get the Bayern ticket for the next day. We're actually staying in Hohenschwangau that night so we can get an early start on the castle tours. So I can get a jump on the cheaper fares, I'm probably going to book reminders in my calendar to alert me a day in advance of the 90 day limit so I can buy them.

Question on buying them... Is there a problem with buying online for Germany? I am confused with the talk about buying online for the French rail system. We will be buying tickets for travel in Benelux, France, Germany, and maybe Switzerland unless we get a Swiss pass.

On a related note, I tried to access SNCF in English as outlined in the earlier thread, but all I got was in French. Grrr....

Jed:

I do not understand flying from Paris to Zurich and then taking the train to Lauterbrunnen. The train from Zurich would require going to Interlaken via Luzern, Brunig / Meiringen with 2 changes, or via Bern with possible direct trains, or up to 2 changes. On the other hand, you can take the TGV to Geneva or Basel and then pick up an Inter-City to Bern and Interlaken. Total time about 6 or 7 Hours. Compare that to 1 to the airport, arrive 2 hours before flight, 1 hour flight, 1 hour immigration and customs, 2 to 3 hours train to Interlaken depending on route, and you have 7 or 8 hours, along with an expensive flight. If you have a Swiss Pass, all you need is the ticket from Paris to the Border, the Swiss Pass will cover the rest of the Journey.

As far as Lauterbrunnen to Fussen goes, there are a number of beautiful routes that you could take, making full use of a Swiss Pass to the border with Austria.

Your could take the train down from Lauterbrunnen to Interlaken

Another advantage of buying your Bayern-Ticket in advance is that it is valid for the bus from Füssen to Hohenschwangau (or v-v) so if you buy it on the day before, you can use it to get back to the Füssen Bhf the next day.

Sorry I mislead you about the language on the VRM website. I had never noticed the link. Obviously it doesn't matter to me.

Lee-thanks for the Bayern tip. We'll definitely get it the day before then.

Kevin-We won't be going from Paris straight to Lauterbrunnen, but rather going up to Sweden for a family get-together. I left that part out of the post as it was getting a bit long. We fly from Paris to Stockholm and then Stockholm to Zurich.

When I looked at the Swiss site, it showed that the quickest route to Lauterbrunnen was through Bern. I am having trouble figuring out how to get to Fussen though. Do we backtrack through Bern to Zurich and then up to Fussen? In a previous post Tim had mentioned taking the train to St. Margarthen and then using a Europa-Spezial Osterreich fare of 19€ from there to Fussen. I am unsure how this trip would work, and how the fares would be calculated as I'd cross the border from Switzerland into Germany.

Also, which Swiss pass would be the best option? The Swiss Card or a flexipass? We will use either for discounts on both Schilthorn and Jungfrau lifts.

There is a good explanation of the Dauer-Spezial on Bahn.de, but it's in German and disappears when you go to English. I guess they only want Germans to know about it. It says that the lowest fare is €29 for the first person and €20 for person 2-5.

From Interlaken you can choose between a fast trip by backtracking to Bern, then on to Zurich, St. Gallen, and connect to Euro-City service to Fussen. But, if you want the Swiss Pass sightseeing tour. Take the train from Interlaken to Meiringen, change to the Post Bus over the Grimsel Pass, then change busses in Gletsch to Andermatt via the Furka Pass. Stop at the Rhone Glacier, and experience the source of the Rhone River. In Andermatt, change to the train over the Oberalp to Disentis, where you will change trains again and follow the Rhine River to Chur. Continue to Sargans, Feldkirch, Lindau, and Fussen via Kempten. This is a long journey, about 12 hours, but it goes through a lot of beautiful scenery.

An alternative is to take the route over the Brunig Pass to Luzern, Inter Regio 2217. From Luzern to St. Gallen via Inter-Regio 2421, and St. Gallen to Rorschach via Regio-Express 3823. Then take the boat to Lindau, and the train on to Fussen. Also 12 hours & beautiful.

Thanks Kevin! Unfortunately, I think it would be too much for us that day as we want to get an early start in Fussen to see the castles so we can leave mid-day for Rothenburg. Perhaps on our next trip! :-)

When I look on the Swiss Rail Webpage I see the quickest route is Lauterbrunnen-Interlaken-Thun-Zurich-Buchloe-Fussen which is approximately 7.5 hours. Is that the same as you were talking with St. Gallen and connecting to Euro-City Service?

Now that I understand why you are flying into Zurich, are you only going to Lauterbrunnen and the surrounding area? If you are only going there, and then on to Fussen, a Swiss Transfer ticket will take you from the airport to Lauterbrunnen, and from Lauterbrunnen to the border. Rick sells these on his website for $151 for first class and $99 for second class. They do not offer a reduction on the lifts and railroads to Schilthorn and Jungfrau. But, you can get a Swiss Card, which gives the same two free trips to and from the border, but also gives the 50% discounts on the high mountain routes. This costs $197 first class and $146 second class. There would be no reason to get a Swiss pass for $100+ more if this is all you will do in Switzerland. Be sure to buy them in the states, the transfer ticket is not available in Switzerland, and the price is less in the U.S. then the current exchange makes them in Switzerland. Point to point tickets will cost slightly more.

Jed:

I am finding one that goes Interlaken to Thun, Thun to Zurich, Zurich to St. Margrethen (end of Swiss Card) but train continue to Lindau, then Lindau to Kaufbeuren to Fussen. The date I used was 10 June 2008, and the time was leaving Interlaken at 10:30. It is about a 7.5 hour total trip with the only really layover being in Lindau for 44 minutes.

I will check back on this later for your input in refining the times.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin! I see that one. We will be traveling on a Sunday in July (20th). When I plug in that date it shows it's 8:43 for the train through St. Margrethen (leaving at 9:03)and about 30 minutes quicker for the one through Lindau leaving at 10:33 (doesn't mention St. Margrethen in the itinerary). There is one that leaves at 8:30 through St. Margrethen that is only a bit over 8 hrs.

This is our exact travel date, so besides the extra 30 minutes, is there a big difference in these? I'd lead towards the one at 8:30 so we can get in Fussen a bit before dinner. Thanks for your input on these!!

PS So how would the fare piece work? Would we have to buy a ticket in St. Margrethen for the rest of the journey once the Swiss Card ended? And once we bought the card through Rick Steves do we make reservations then?

If you have a change of trains in Lindau, and have a few minutes layover, stash your bags in a locker at the station and see some of Lindau. It's beautiful. www.lindau.de. The station is on the island, next to the harbor.

If you do get a Swiss pass, you can probably buy an Anschluss (connecting)ticket in Switzerland that will take you from the Swiss border to Lindau. In Lindau buy a Bayern-Ticket to Füssen. It won't take much longer from Lindau to Füssen by regional train, because almost half of the trip is regional anyway, and you will save some money.

Jed:

The 2nd class fare from Zurich Airport to Lauterbrunnen is 74 Swiss Francs. The fare from Lauterbrunnen to St. Margrethen is 94 Swiss Francs. The combination of these two tickets at 168 Swiss Francs is about $150, so when you combine that cost with the 50% reduction on the high mountain routes in the Lauterbrunnen area, the Swiss Card is the best deal for you.

The fare from St. Margrethen to Fussen is 42 Euros, but you can get an advance fare for as little as 19 Euros, but you would have to buy that on the internet 89 days in advance. If you did that you would be covered all the way to Fussen. If not, then any ticket agent in a Swiss station should be able to assist you with getting that part of your ticket.

When you look up the schedules on SBB.ch, be sure to hit the en at the top center to get the site in English, and click the intermediate stops button on each route and St. Margrethen will show up.

Lee in Denver is better versed on the deals in Germany than I am

Thanks Lee and Kevin! So in Lauterbrunnen before leaving we can buy the Anschluss ticket there and that will get us across into Germany. Then buying the Bayern ticket at 29 euro will get us to Fussen cheaper than the 19 euro each advance ticket (and cover our bus trip to Hohenschwangau from Fussen)?

Lee-when you talked about regional trains with the Bayern ticket, are there trains you can't ride on with that? Wondering because you were saying that the route would take a bit longer on just the regional trains.

To recap that part of our journey then..it seems best to buy a Swiss Card and use that from Zurich Airport to Lauterbrunnen, use the 50% reduction on mountain lifts, use the Swiss Card to return through Thun and Zurich to St. Margrethen, then use the Anschluss ticket bought earlier in the trip to cover us from Marrethen to Landau and then Bayern to Hohenschwangau. Phew that's easy!

I don't know how I'd have figured all this out without paying lots of $ for a Eurrail pass!

I think the best info on the Bayern-Ticket is on Bavarian Eisenbahn Gesellschaft's own website at www.bayern-takt.de (and it can be made to display in Englisch). In Germany there are faster express trains called ICE (Intercity Express), (IC) Intercity, and (EC)Eurocity. They go long distances and only stop at the biggest stations. There are also regional trains that don't go as far and make more stops. The regional trains are mostly (RB) Regional Bahn which stop at every little stop and (RE) Regional Express which skip some of the smaller stations. There are also regional trains called IRE (Interregio express), ALX (Allgäu Express), BOB (Bavarian Oberland Bahn), and maybe some others. The Bayern-Ticket is not valid on ICE, IC, or EC trains.

Look like there are ECs on the route from Lindau towards Munich. If you take one of them, it might take a little less time than the RE takes for the same route, but the EC doesn't stop until Buchloe, so you then have to backtrack more getting to Füssen, so some of the time savings is lost.

It kind of depends how the connection times work out, but, for example, at 3:12 on a Sun there is an EC to Buchloe, connecting to an RB to Füssen - total time 2h45m. An hour earlier or an hour later, there is an ALX to Kaufbeuren, connecting to an RE to Füssen - total time 3h. At 2:42, twenty minutes before the EC leaves Lindau, there is an RE leaving Lindau, connecting in Kaufbeuren to the same RB as with the EC. At other times there are regional connections taking 3h15m.

When you use the DB website, the faster express routes will be shown instead of the regional routes, so to see all your options, use "Means of transport". Leave it set on "standard search" to see the express connections, but then repeat it as "local transport only" to see the regional connections. Otherwise express connections at about the same time will take precedence over local connections.

I can't say for sure that Swiss Rail will supplement your railpass with an anschluss ticket from the border to Lindau, but that is what Germany does for people with Länder-Tickets going to Prague. However, in this case you are traveling from Switzerland through a third country, Austria (Bregenz) on you way to Germany, so I don't know. In the worst case you could buy a ticket from St. Margrethen to Lindau for 12 CHF (€7,50) pP.

Check with Swiss Rail. If they are anything like Deutsche Bahn, small stations like Lauterbrunnen are not manned, but there should be a ticket counter at the station in Interlaken.

Lauterbrunnen station is always manned.

Thanks for all the info Lee! I'll fool around with that and see how I can make it work. Maybe the best option would be when we land in Zurich get some help there at the train station. At least for the leg out of Switzerland. All these are very helpful...thank you!

Michael, so the station in Lauterbrunnen is manned. That's good. So many stations in Germany no longer are or have shortened hours. I've observed that (no counter) at St. Goar, Bacharach, Oberammergau, and, I think, Landsberg am Lech. And those are just the ones I noticed, usually because I had to buy tickets.

I meet two Americans on the boat from St. Goar to Bacharach. They had stayed in Bacharach and wanted to go to Frankfurt, but they didn't know how to buy tickets. I had to show them how to use the automat.

Over staffing is one of the great features of the Swiss Rail system. Passenger trains in CH still handle a lot of small cargo, luggage, and mail so even smaller stations need staff to handle it.

Michael and Lee,

So, are there any restrictions on me buying my tickets online for Germany (like the Dauer Spezial)? Can I pay for them and print them off, or do I have to wait until I'm there to access my tickets? How does that part work? For the Bayern, I'll just buy there, but I'm thinking for the Rothenburg/Bacharach leg and especially the Cochem/Berlin leg I'll want the Dauer Spezial. Should I get seat reservations for any or does that come buying the ticket?

One thing I didn't put in my plan above was we will probably take a day trip from Cochem to Trier. Any special tickets for that? Thanks again! I hope all my questions aren't too silly! I guess once I go there and go through this the first time it'll be much simpler for me! Plus, living in a place where we don't use rail really at all, it's such a different concept of traveling. I'm excited to do it though as the limited times I've used public rail I've loved it!

Jed

The Dauer-Spezial ticket can be purchased online with a credit card and self-printed from a pdf file they send you. The restriction is that you have to show them the credit card when they check the ticket. You don't have to get reservations for the Dauer-Spezial, but it might be advisable and it is only €2 extra when you purchase the reservation along with the ticket online. All this is explained when you go through the purchase process.

Trier is outside the borders of the VRM, so you can't use one of their Minigruppe tickets, but the trip is within the state of Rheinland-Pfalz, so you can use a Rheinland-Pfalz-Ticket (like a Bayern-Ticket except €26 for all day regional travel for 2-5 people, after 9 am, weekdays). Since a 2nd class one way ticket is €10,90 you can save a little.

Thanks Lee! I do appreciate all the help on the planning!

You can take cheap regional trains from Brugge to Lille (no advance booking needed) and a TGV from there to Paris. Booked at www.voyages-sncf.com, the cheapest PREM'S fare for Lille-Paris is 17€.

Thalys has just introduced a new single (one-way) fare called Mini (25€) for select routes, including Bruxelles-Paris. To have any chance of getting this fare, book at www.thalys.com as soon as the 90-day window opens. If you succeed, then you could take a regional train from Brugge to Bruxelles.

Thanks for the info Tim. I think we'll probably do what you suggest regarding booking a cheap fare from Brugge to Lille and then a Prem from there to Paris. Looks like it's a bit quicker and I thought there was a previous post somewhere that the ride through the countryside was a bit nicer.

Tim-I am still a bit confused on booking online with www.voyages-sncf.com. If I choose the US so I can read it in English, I can't print my tickets? But if I choose France as my home country I can? Since I don't speak/read French what's the best way to book a PREM fare? Since we'd stop in Lille and start on a different ticket for the TGV, is there an option to pay now and pick up the ticket at the station in Lille? Since I have about 2-3 other train legs in France, would that work for them too, especially since I want to get PREM fares on the Paris-Bayeux and return leg.

Thanks!

Bad news: Since the recent revision of the SNCF site, it no longer is easy to book in English and either pick up standard fare tickets in France or print PREM'S tickets at home. Good news: Norm from Ottawa has discovered a way around this problem.

Here are the steps to follow:

Clear the cookies from your Web browser and then follow this link: http://tinyurl.com/2shmfn. You'll get a page with the heading "Document non trouvé." Click on the British flag icon. It will look like nothing has changed. Wait a few moments and then click on the "consulter le plan du site" link. You'll get a new page. Under the train heading click on the "Réservation billet train" link. You'll get a booking page in English. Leave France as the default country for picking up your tickets. If it is offered, do NOT choose cancellation insurance. If PREM'S are available, you'll be able to print your own ticket.

Tim-It worked this time! I tried to do that the other day and I kept getting the French page. This time I went through and wiped out ALL my cookies instead of just looking for the SNCF and Voyages ones.

Since I've got that cookie now on my browser I should be able to get it in English for a while now...I hope! If not I'll just do this again. The 90 day window for me won't be until mid to late April, but I'll fool around a bit on the site so when the time comes I'll be ready.

A HUGE THANK YOU to everyone who has helped me (and all others) on this site. I know just by posting this one question I'm sure my wife and I will save at least a couple hundred dollars on our train tickets (and even more than buying passes). Should probably post this as a strategy in the "How to save $ with the Euro at $1.48"! This is definitely a lot more work than just buying a pass, but is certainly worth the savings and is enjoyable in planning the trip!

One last question...again....

When I book the prem from Lille to Paris and Paris to Bayeux, that is basically my reservation, so I don't need to do any other reservations for those trains?

Any ticket, discount or standard, for a train that requires a reservation includes that reservation.