Group of 12 teens seek rail advice

Slow it down. 2 nights in London is barely enough to get over the jetlag from CA. Night trains don't always net you much sleep even if you pay for a sleeper (pricey.) Drop Munich, Venice and Rome and you won't need railpasses or reservations - just one train ticket for Paris-A'dam and one flight to Barcelona (you had to get one flight anyway.) Then you'll have about $300-$400 extra in your pockets for these expensive cities and enough time to see them. Cheap flights: Ryanair is one, find others here: http://www.whichbudget.com

Drew,, to cut costs( but you will still have a great time) cut destinations.. every time you move you cost money. Seems like you have about 3 weeks. First do not count first day or last day, those are flight days. So, with 20 days you should move 3, max 4 times. And point to point tickets, if bought well in advance are cheaper then passes. Three nights in Venice, mistake, its expensive , and will not be that exciting for your age group.. see it fine, but one or two nights max. ( you can't afford nice meals out, and doubt that you are into glass blowing tours) I personally would do London,Paris,Amsterdam ,Munich and Rome. I in fact did a three month trip with a friend when I was 23(note three months, not three weeks) and did all those places( obviously plus more) and if I had to edit a few places it would have been Venice and Munich( based on your limited time) . Munich was not as wonderful as i had hoped,, it was too modern for me, and I don't really care for beer, lol

Remember that a group of 12 will move at the speed of the slowest person. If one is slow in the shower and late to breakfast (what breakfast - its a group of teens!) everybody will be slow moving off... When one gets sick, hung over, loses their ticket or passport, etc., it will affect the whole group. The best solution is fewer changes of city. And somebody needs to be in charge...

You're moving around a lot, but when I was in my 20's I had itineraries that were even more fast-paced than yours. However, I traveled solo, and it's much easier to coordinate an ambitious itinerary when there are only 1 or 2 people. If you keep your present itinerary, I would take a day from Venice and add it to London. London has tons of things to do, plus coming from California some of you will need that extra day to adjust to jet lag. Also, I think the distances are shorter if you do London, Amsterdam, Paris, Munich in that order, but perhaps London, Paris, Amsterdam, Munich works out better in terms of price and train schedules? I have been to all your destinations, and if you decide to cut back on the number of cities, I would skip Munich, and either Barcelona or Venice. If you want to consider other options, I would go to London, Amsterdam, Berlin, Paris, Prague, and Rome. Whicever itinerary you choose, I would definitely keep London, Paris, and Amsterdam. I suggest that the group agree beforehand on some ground rules. For example, if people are not at the designated meeting spot at the agreed-upon time, then the group leaves without them and they will have to make their way to the next destination on their own. Sounds harsh, but if you don't do that, the stragglers and latecomers will dictate the pace of the group and potentially derail the whole trip. For hostels in London, I recommend Generator (1st choice), or Clink 78. Also take a look at St. Christopher's Inns; they have hostels in several cities. I also recommend that you check the Thorntree Forum on Lonely Planet. Lots of good info for backpackers. Good luck!

One of the biggest problems with a group that large is inevitably some people may drop out of the trip at the last minute. This often leaves the others stuck paying extra for their lodging since they may be basing the cost on staying in a dorm room for 4 or for 6. It's also a burden on you if you find yourself suddenly stuck with being the group leader/organizer/planner. It can really suck trying to round people up for getting to the train station or airport on time and there is just no way to make 11 other people agree as to what to see or do or how long to stay. Do yourself a favor and take a look at one of the Hop-On/Hop-Off Backpacker bus networks like Busabout.com. Instead of buying rail passes and organizing everything on your own, you can purchase a pass from Busabout. They sell many different types of passes, including a flexipass, that can be used at any stops in their network. You can also take advantage of using Busabout to book all your hostels for you along the way. You'll have flexibility to stay longer in places you decide you like, or pack up and be on the next bus out if you decide a particular city isn't all that you hoped it would be. And the drivers in these networks also serve as informal "guides" and will generally make a number of stops along the route between cities to take you to sightseeing opportunities you would not be able to get to on your own unless you had a car. Busabout does not cover England. It does cover the other places you want to go.

This will be fun for your group but you need to cut some cities. You are moving around too much and spending too much money on travel from place to place, then not giving yourselves enough time at the place you spent so much to reach. You should spend at least 3nights in London, for a lot of reasons. You need to go there well before the Olympics complicate things. Train to Paris and Amsterdam for 3 nights each. Then I agree with skipping Munich. Instead, fly directly to Italy. Rome and Florence might be better choices than Venice. Most college kids I know who have gone loved Florence in particular. And if you decide to keep Munich in the mix there is a night train from there to Florence. Each place you go is worth a minimum of three nights. If the cost is over budget, drop Barcelona which is another long distance move. And that $86 Ryanair price will end up more by the time you add the extras. With this plan you will not need a rail pass at all. It might be a good idea for everyone to join the youth hostel organization, I think it is Hosteling International.

Right now, according to the German Rail website, for Amsterdam to Munich, a couchette (4 or 6) or a seat is about €32 ($42), more if you buy a Savings fare ticket, which includes the rail portion as well as the accommodation surcharge vs just the accommodation surcharge with a rail pass. I expect you will find something similar for Munich to Venice. You say the rail pass would cost you $370 for 4 trips, $92.50/trip. You'd better look very closely at Venice to Rome and Paris to Amsterdam. A rail pass will likely cost more than point-point tickets.

Ceidlah has an excellent idea with using a bus company that is geared towards student and youth travel. There's Busabout as she suggested, you can also look at Eurolines which has 15 and a 30 day pass. My daughter used Eurolines last summer; she took several overnight bus rides and said it was easier to sleep on the bus than the train.

Wow, everyone has been so helpful and has great advice. I really appreciate all your insights and suggestions. I think we will add a night in London. You're probably right about the jet lag. And although the itinerary says 3 nights in Venice, it's really just 2 since we're taking a night train there. If we flew, then we would be able to save time and take a night off of our stay in Venice. It's looking like it might be cheaper to try and find good airfares to cover the long hauls instead of the trains. It's funny, but the travel agent I asked to help us was trying to sell us the rail passes but every time I put the itinerary in on the raileurope site I came up saving money buying point to point tickets. The bus idea is interesting but I'm afraid we'd spend too much time on buses unless we took the night bus. Do you know if they have reclining seats? Our thought was to get 2 6-bed couchettes on the overnight trains, but maybe it's really hard to sleep on the trains? Well, we clearly have some more research to do and thanks to you all I've got some new sites to check out and things to think about.

Drew ,, travel agents have to make a living. Since we do not pay them fees( normally, although here there is a 50 dollar booking fee for airline tickets) then they have to get money somewhere else. Commissions. They promote hotels and transport passes so they get a cut. Blunt but true, and not underhanded really, as I said, they have to be paid too. But, for someone on a budget you forgo the luxury of having them do the research and bookings for you and do it yourself. Most small cheap hotels do not pay commissions , so most TAs will not suggest them. Same with train tickets, either you pay them a fee , or they purchase the passes at a higher cost then what you could do yourself and take a cut. As i said, its not sneaky, its how they have to do it to make money. Most of us here to our own sleuthing and keep the extra cash for ourselves!

For advice on trains, please take a look at The Man in Seat 61: http://www.seat61.com/Europe-train-travel.htm Lots of info about train travel in Europe. Re couchettes, I have only used them occasionally. I find them uncomfortable, particularly if you are a light sleeper. They are not equivalent to sleeping in an actual room. In fact, I keep my clothes on (IME most people do), and just take off my shoes and tie my hair back. By the time I get to my destination I have a serious case of "train lag." (Okay, that's not an actual term, but you know what I mean). not a big deal--I just push through it. Anyway, good luck. I think you are off to a great start on your research.

I say skip London, Italy and Barcelona. Add Prague, Krakow and Berlin. We were in Krakow a few Junes ago and have pictures of teenage backpackers lounging in the square at night, listening to music. Krakow is magical and. Heap as is Prague. Also, add Ghent, Belgium in there. A nice stop between Paris and Amsterdam and again, a cool young beautiful city.

"The bus idea is interesting but I'm afraid we'd spend too much time on buses" You're exactly right, Drew. I've used Eurolines a few times for single journeys here and there - had all sorts of problems with them. I'd never build an itinerary around them. About cutting down your itinerary and your choice of cities... You're doing this trip to hang out together and get a short intro to Europe, right? Any group of 12 would come up with the cities you listed - they're all great places that encapsulate Europe. But your vacation is becoming a race. You feel like you're missing out on something vital if you drop one or two. But you are clearly missing out on sights, experiences, and fun times within each place by traveling too much and keeping your stays too short in each one. Look... if you're getting to Europe at your age, you'll be back again for sure to see whatever you drop this time. "...every time I put the itinerary in on the raileurope site I came up saving money buying point to point tickets." p2p tickets from Raileurope are almost ALWAYS overpriced and cheaper elsewhere. "...maybe it's really hard to sleep on the trains?" Often the case, and that couchette $ is wasted. You can cut down on travel time and $ in a dozen different ways. Just an example or two...

(cont.) A'dam to Munich is 8-9 hrs. Why Munich, if only for 2 nights? There's no time for outings to the Alps, Salzburg, etc. You can get to Cologne, which you can see in a day and where most sights are around the station, in just 2.5 hours from A'dam for 29€ with adv. purchase tix at www.bahn.de Group travel in Germany is super cheap w/ daypasses. Maybe spend a week in/near Munich where you can travel all day within Bavaria to places like Nuremberg, Salzburg, Garmisch, and Rothenburg on a "Bavaria Ticket" daypass for 6€ each: http://www.munich-touristinfo.de/Bavaria-Ticket.htm On Sat or Sun, 5 can share a 40€ pass good for all of Germany: http://www.bahn.com/i/view/DEU/en/prices/germany/happy_weekend_ticket.shtml Want to see some castles? Stay in smaller towns where you can find some and where hostels are cheaper. The St. Goar hostel (lower left below Rheinfels Castle in photo at the following page) is only 15.50/night w/breakfast. http://www.jugendherberge.de/en/hostels/search/portrait/jh.jsp?IDJH=424

Others have given you good advice. I really second the recommendation to consider London, Paris, then the east - Berlin, Krakow, Prague, Budapest, some combination of these. They're all significantly cheaper than Italy or Spain. I think kids your age would enjoy Munich, but I'd only include it if you decide to visit some more eastern cities instead and it will be more convenient for you. If you decide to stay in the west, it makes sense to cut it out. Something you (and the posters!) should keep in mind is that you're young and the majority of the posters here are not. At 17-18 sleeping in a few couchette cars (where at least you're entirely with friends and not sharing such a tight space with strangers) is going to be less tiring and uncomfortable for you than it would be for us older folks and you guys can get away with a lot less sleep, too. I'd stay keep night trains in the plan, it saves you money and time, although don't discount flying between any point to point more than 6-7 hours away by train.

Your point about them being teenagers as opposed to most of us on this site is a very good one. That's one of the reasons I don't think their fast-paced itinerary is necessarily a bad thing. I think the advice to slow it down a bit is good, but I also know that the way you travel to Europe as a first-time visitor in your teens is usually different from the way an experienced middle-aged traveler would do it. I also agree that they should keep the night trains. It looks like there are only 2 of them, not a big deal IMO. But he did ask how easy it is to sleep on them, and I don't think it's that's easy. That was true even when I was college age. But then, I've always been a light sleeper. I think of a couchette as a bit like a hostel on wheels. Here are 2 threads that talk about couchettes: http://goo.gl/aMgVv http://www.reidsguides.com/t_tr/t_tr_overnight.html

About the age thing and sleeping on a train... remember that this is 12 (!!) teenagers on their first trip to Europe. I remember myself at that age. That will be 2 full x6 couchette compartments, hopefully together. So 12 folk, possibly visiting each other, hopefully - for the other guests in the car - not all night, possibly one or two tinnies of beer?, and it is likely that one or more of the group may want to talk, sing, or play jokes. Or is this a really disciplined group? That all go to sleep when the train starts moving and don't wake until breakfast? Don't forget that if somebody needs the bathroom in the middle of the night at least the 2 sleepers above and below that person are likely to be woken, and when they step into the corridor (toilets at the end of the train car) the light may wake the other 3. If you want to spend more money for more space (a little) you could consider 3x4 couchettes.

Drew, be prepared for your group of 12 to dwindle down to a group of........you. Prepare for your trip and get ready for a great adventure!

Yeah I have to say, I'm really glad I'm not organizing a trip for that many people. I used to organize groups of friends to go to a cabin on the coast for a weekend and that was always really difficult, with people wanting in/out at the last minute. It's easy to get saddled with the bill yourself when you're dealing with large groups of people, and they're all gonna have opinions. A combination of patience and firm boundaries will come in handy. But I'm also jealous - it sounds like a lot of fun. I wish I was young enough to attempt this kind of trip, but I gave me last shot at the backpacker/hostel type thing last summer with my younger brother and concluded my 32 year-old self is just too old. I'm always impressed/amazed when I see people my age or older happy to stay in hostel dorm rooms. One of the worst nights of sleep in my life was staying at "The Tent" in Munich, which is too bad because if I'd been younger I think I would have loved it. If you're gonna attempt a trip like this, now is the time to do it!

I also think large groups are a problem to organize.Id decide where to start and end and then buy the plane tickets.Each person has to come up with the money for their ticket. Then they wont back out at the last minute.

I really appreciate all your advice and suggestions. I agreed with some of you that we weren't staying in London long enough we'll add a night there. But I think the consensus among our group is that we will be okay if we have ground rules, stick to an agreed itinerary, have train and hostel/hotel reservations, travel on night trains to save time and hostel money, and split up the cities beforehand and do research so that several of us become knowledgeable about a city and its metro system, highlights, etc. We're young and used to getting by on little sleep. We do it by choice all the time at home! We look at this trip as an opportunity that we (as a group of close friends since elementary school) will never have again. I know it must seem foolish to some of you to have so many cities on our itinerary but we really aren't expecting to be able to see everything... we just want to experience Europe together as friends and it makes sense to us to head to the places we've always read about and learned about in school. I've got some experience moving around Europe fairly quickly my family took a 14-day trip to London, Paris, Venice, Florence, Rome and Sicily one spring and another trip to Vienna, Salzburg, Prague and Berlin last winter 14 days again. My mom planned everything, we did a ton of stuff and it really didn't feel rushed to me. Some of you might find it hard to believe, but I feel like I got a good introduction to these cities. So I hope you wish us well I'm sure I'll be asking more questions on the forum as we get deeper into the planning process. Thanks again for all your input.

Having spent numerous nights in 6- person couchettes with friends, many years ago, I am sure you and your friends will be just fine. We actually did get some sleep, and the other people in the car did too. I hope you and your friends have as good an experience as we did. That was 45 years ago, and we still get together for reunions.

Drew, you are a remarkable 17 yo, with a level of maturity that many of us are still seeking. Best wishes to a memorable trip with your friends!

Drew,, in Paris,, look up the Catacombs ,, my sons loved seeing them, they were only 14 yrs old at the time, but considered it a weird but neat highlight.Look up a bit of history on them too, its not just a sightseeing stop for the macbre lovers,, they were used during WWll as well, and by the French and the Germans!

Drew, I agree with other posters that you've picked some expensive cities but...save some money. And if you move less it's less expensive. Your choice. However, i will say do not make any reservations for anyone without money in hand, that way if they cancel, and trust me, someone will, you won't be stuck holding the bag. There was a long helpline Q/A on this subject a while back... Also, Ryanair has a very strict luggage policy, carry on is 10 kg (22 lbs) with measurement limits, and they will make you shove your bags in the measuring thing to make sure they aren't too big. If you don't carry on the wt limit is 15 kg/bag but then you pay extra money. They're pretty strict about this. ALso, you need to print off your boarding passes within 14 days of travel or they'll charge you for those at the airport. It sounds like a great trip, have fun whatever you decide to do!! Keep us updated please

This board has been HEAVILY moderated. I must remind you all to STAY ON TOPIC and do not respond to others when they make guideline violations as that only fuels off-topic debate which can (and did) become very snarky and rude. I expect no further debate concerning what was removed here. Thank you to those who have been so helpful to Drew.

Ok well that got a little weird. All I'm going to say about what just happened is: my name is Drew and I am an 18 year old senior in high school and editor of my school newspaper. I enjoy writing and am thinking of majoring in communications or computer science at (hopefully) Harvard, Columbia or Stanford this fall. And let's leave it at that. Thanks again for all your suggestions and encouragement. I will keep you in mind when planning the rest of this trip. Right now the 11 of us are deciding what city we'd like to become an "expert" of and then we will be dividing up into groups to figure out hostels, sights, food, trains, etc. Since this is the transportation board, if we have any questions about buying train tickets I'll see if you all can help. But if any of you know of good hostels in the cities I mentioned before (or interesting sights like the catacombs) I'd really like to hear from you. Thanks.

Drew...sounds like a trip of a lifetime and while I can't help with hostel recommendations I do want to remind you (like a friend, or mother or grandmother) to be sure to keep daily track of all your adventures... it is such intense living filled with so many experiences that if you do not write them down you will forget! I made up a travel log of sorts for my grandkids when I took them to Europe. Daily events such as where we stayed, the travel route we took, memorable meals, sights we saw and a place for sketching and journal thoughts, and I insisted they spend a few minutes each day filling it out. If we ever forgot a day it was amazing how we could hardly remember what we did the previous day. It will be a treasure for you in years to come. Have a great trip!

Good luck with your college apps. If you get into Stanford, you may want to include Paris and Florence in your plans( I see Paris is already there), as you will have an opportunity study abroad at their campuses there. There is one at Berlin too, but that is a bit out of your path. If Harvard, I believe they have an affiliation with the university in Barcelona, but you must be pretty fluent in Spanish for that one. In any case, it is nice to have some experience with these places when trying to decide. Our daughter is trying to choose between Paris, Florence and Berlin right now, and very glad she has been to two of those cities.

Drew, First of all, my compliments to you in organising this group travel. You asked about hostel recommendations for the cities listed above: I can recommend some based on very recent personal experience, either having stayed there myself or checked the place out personally (for future trips). London: the YHA hostel on Euston near St Pancras, since you're arriving in London. When you take the Euro-Star to Paris, that station is across the street. Paris: the Vintage hostel ca. 15 mins from Gare du Nord (the Euro-Star station in Paris), the located between the 10th and 9th arrond. Munich: Wombats Hostel on Senefelderstrasse. Basically a few mins from Munich Hbf. Two other hostels are on the same block as Wombats. The Munich train station area has several Pensionen right in the neighborhood. It's the area I stay in Munich...good Pensionen there. The dorm rooms at Wombats include lockers and the WC and shower....found it very satisfactory. Keep in mind the everyone in the group has to keep to schedules esp. at breakfast and when taking a morning train prior to 09:00....to avoid stragglers. That means getting the sleep needed, be it on a night rain, hostel, etc. As far as cost goes, Berlin is by far cheaper than London, Paris, and Munich. You may want to reconsider going to Rome and head for Berlin instead. There's a Munich-Berlin CNL night train, gives you an extra day in Munich. Lots of kids book hostels as they go along on their trips; you'll see this yourself in the hostel lobby/lounge.

Hmm, I missed out on the fight. But anway... "We look at this trip as an opportunity that we (as a group of close friends since elementary school) will never have again." You are correct that as a group, you will almost certainly never have this chance again. Go for it and enjoy... ...however, one caveat. When planning a first European trip (I know you have been here before, but I'm guessing the majority of your group has not, so this comment is more directed towards the other members of your party), avoid the temptation to think "I have to see FILL IN THE BLANK now, because I don't think I'll ever get a chance to come back." Most of the people on this forum probably thought the exact same thing on our first trip. And yet if you read these forums long enough, you will see many, many posters who have returned again and again, most of whom do not claim to be wealthy. Personally, I waited most of my childhood (yeah, I was weird kid) to visit Europe. When I finally landed in London for the first time as a young adult, it felt like the fullfillment of a lifetime goal, but I was also concerned that I would never get another chance to return and I wouldn't see everything I wanted to. Lo and behold, I then found myself returning virtually every year, then several times a year, and now I live here. I've still barely begun to scratch the surface. OK, most visitors won't end up settling in Europe, but the moral of the story- more than a few members of your group may not end up seeing everything on their wish list. That's OK. If they really want to come back, then it will happen.

Drew, One hostel you might want to consider in Munich is "The Tent". It's a really fun place for people in your age group (and was sort of hell on earth for an oldie like me!) It's also very, very cheap. But a really fun atmosphere, nice cafe/"bar" on site, decent bathrooms/shower facilities, campfire in the evenings, helpful english-speaking staff. The only real downside is that the sleeping is in a very large tent with a wooden floor and it's pretty noisy at night, even though the staff does their best to enforce quiet hours. The location is also a bit out of the way. But if you're looking to save money and have fun, consider it. You can reserve beds/floor space directly on their website, just google "The tent Munich". I stayed at a hostel in Paris which was fine but not great, it's location was also pretty far away (just outside the "ring" a 15 minute walk to the nearest Metro stop). I don't really think I'd recommend it, you'll probably want a more centralized location.