Greetings, we are Americans living in the Netherlands who frequent the route from Amsterdam to Zurich, Switzerland with German stops on the route including Dusseldorf, Koln, Bonn, Frankfurt, Mannheim and Freiburg and several other cities. In our opinion, DB has lost touch with (A) security issues, (B) timeliness, and (C) cleanliness on this specific route. Our recent experiences with Deutsche Bahn (DB) did not meet our standards nor would it meet yours. (A) security issues. On this route organized theft appears to be intentionally underreported. On our last trip we nearly caught thieves red-handed in the theft of our small bag from the rack above our heads while the train was making a quick stop in Offenburg between Baden-Baden and Freiburg. Two men got up just as the train was rolling to the stop at the Offenburg station. They made a little scene when they 'lost' an ear bud on the floor and asked quickly for passengers in the area to look. By creating cooperation among passengers in their sketch, two other men quickly grabbed bags from behind this set of passengers. After the 2 stepped off the train, I immediately noticed that my bag was stolen and went directly to the conductors and told them I could identify these thieves. I claimed it was organized theft. The two conductors sitting in a darkened cab didn't get out of their seats or put down their coffee. They told me that it was accidental that my luggage was taken. They told me to file a lost and found claim online if a German city wasn't my final destination. We are experienced EU train travelers. The criminals and the conductors knew this German DB train car that was going to Basel, Switzerland. The criminals boarded in Mannheim and jumped off in Offenburg, three stops later. Our bags were directly above our heads. The 'lost ear bud chaos' was planned, organized with enough distraction for a coordinated criminal act. When we reported our loss to the police in Zurich (our final destination), I told the intake officer that the theft appeared to be a coordinated operation because the DB conductors never checked new passengers after the Frankfurt Main stop and they intentionally wanted me to report my bag was mistakenly taken by another passenger and instructed me to report it as a lost bag. . We travel light and never pack anything of value. My loss was minor and replaceable at our destination. Know EU Regulation 1371/2007 | Rail Passenger Rights As a train passenger in Europe, you are protected by special legislation. 1). You are entitled to accurate, timely and accessible information from the rail company including accurate directions to report theft. 2) You are entitled to compensation for stolen property and have consumer and rail passenger rights on EU trains. We took photos of our seats, the location of the stolen bag, the location of where the thieves sat, and the location of rail stop. I always inventory our travel bags before each trip and take a photo. I took the time to file a police report, have travel insurance, and personal property insurance. At some point in time, my loss will be financially addressed. (B) Timeliness not happening. The travel in Germany on this route has not been on time for more than 10 months/10 trips. Members of our family and visiting friends travel this roundtrip route approximately once a month. In the past year, all travelers have experienced very late to totally disrupted travel. The shortest delay was under and hour and the longest was 4 hours. You can commonly experience late/cancelled/reroutes on the DB route. The delayed train can quickly turn into a very late train because the off-timed train slows down and makes way to keep other trains on time. A late train snowballs quickly. (C) Cleanliness not happening. The DB train toilets on this route are filthy and oftentimes unusable. DB trains on this route feel like third world travel after the pleasant, tidy, and cleanliness travel on Dutch and Swiss trains.
Posted by
L'Occitanie, France
10621 posts
Important message and observations.
I'm booting this back to the top for others to read.
You might want to put this in the Germany forum, too.
Posted by
Wengen
2493 posts
I am sorry this happened to you. But I would like to point out a few things...
-Crime on German trains is rare. It is shocking when it happens to you, but the security situation in German trains is certainly not "out of control". I travel the same route you travel quite regularly, and also travel other routes all over Europe. Luggage theft is actually rare. The best thing to do is indeed watch your belonging. I usually have my suitcase in the luggage racks at the end of the train, and do not worry much about it being stolen as there is nothing of value in there. But my backpack with my laptop always stays with me. I have been travelling all over Europe since I was 14 and have never witnessed petty theft. I know it happens, but it is rare. And it may be hard to believe it is rare when it happens to you, but yes, it is rare.
- There is not much the conductors could have done. What did you expect them to do? Would you rather DB limited itself to running one slow train per day just like Amtrak does? Because if you really want conductors to keep tabs on everyone that boards and alights that is what you will end up with.
- And you are mistaken regarding your rights as a passenger. In your case you have a claim on your insurance, but not on the railways.
And while it is true that DB currently has an issue with punctuality, at least they run a lot of trains. Not like in France where I have had the one daily train being cancelled on me, and the French Railways not doing anything. And don't get me started on Amtrak...
Posted by
Chicago
2042 posts
Unfortunately, crime is on the rise everywhere after two years of Covid. More people out means more people traveling. I am sorry that they took your luggage but accusing DB conductors of coordinating with thieves is pretty dicey. More likely the conductors didn't want to do any paperwork and are lazy. i am glad your insurance will take care of your loss.
I think most people know by now that DB trains aren't punctual and haven't been for some years if my German friends are correct. As for toilets, I will just mention an international United flight where the economy toilets were filthy half-way through the flight. FA's solution was to just use the remaining ones that were clean. Sadly, it seems people can't clean up after themselves in bathrooms(at least wipe the seat).
Posted by
OP
Amsterdam
6 posts
All,
I presented very specific information/facts about our recent DB travel experience because the Zurich police told us they were aware of increasing organized theft activity on German trains with routes into Switzerland. I travel smart. I travel insured. This was the first time I experienced theft and saw organized criminal activity in action with my own eyes on a train. I am reporting it as my experience and what we were told by Zurich police.
Commenting that you are a 'better' and 'smarter' traveler and 'criminal activity is rare on German trains' and the 'conductors/DB train personnel are not police' are emotional and smug reactions to belittle a real and reported crime.
The EU Regulation 1371/2007 Rail Passenger Rights state we are entitled to safe travel. We are entitled to accurate, timely and accessible information from the rail company including accurate directions to report theft.
Do you think DB train personnel contribute to the ease of criminal activity on their trains if they ignore their role in checking the passes and reservations of new passengers? I do.
Do you think the DB personnel are complicate when they misdirect affected passengers to report stolen luggage on a lost and found form online? I do.
If theft is increasing on this German train route and it is known to Zurich police, why isn't DB valiant themselves and additionally asking passengers to assist them with detailed reports to understand the vulnerable areas/times/locations? Is DB underreporting theft on their trains? I believe so.
See something. Say something. Share facts not emotions. If you are a victim of a crime at home or abroad, report it as quickly and accurately as possible. Criminals thrive when people feel ashamed of their experience and when well-intended people think they are 'smarter' and 'make better choices' than the victim.
Posted by
1045 posts
I am sorry your belongings were stolen. In all my world travels I accept that in transit I am liable for my stuff. I keep a close eye. My nice camera was stolen in Rome on the subway from my backpack.
I did not contact any officials for a complaint. Once that stuff is gone, it is gone. Prevention is easy to say, but it is truly the only way.
Once in a Lima hotel lobby I was with a group and someone walked in and left with some luggage that was piled nearby for our bus driver. The owner of the lost bag which contained his camera was advised to make a police report. That took 2-3 hours of his time. And, as I said, the stuff was gone. Never to be seen again.
If someone had taken the time to listen to you and had you fill out forms and it took a couple hours would you have been happier? Would you have taken that amount of time to file a report?
Now you are a more experienced traveler. You will watch your bags, or secure them with a string or strap so that it cannot be quickly taken.
It is fairly well known that getting on or off a train is the time you are most liable for theft as the thieves can escape. Heed that in the future.
As for clean or not restrooms, this has little to do with your theft. That and the not on time train is only a spillover from the theft part of your day.
The people who do these thefts are very hard to catch. If not caught in the act, then catching them is almost impossible. So if you do catch one in that act, take severe punitive measures immediately to vent for yourself and all of us who have ever encountered such misfortune.
Posted by
San Francisco
14976 posts
I never rode the trains in that area, ie Basel, Offenburg, Mannheim , Freiburg, Baden-Baden, but a zilllion times else where in the country . All these negative aspects of riding DB, re: tardiness, the state of the WC, even on the ICE....nothing new.... I have experienced pre-pandemic., the absolute worst being in the summer of 2015. If my train wasn't negatively affected , then it was certainly happening to others as you listened to the inter-com announcements.
Those passengers asked by the bad guys for their cooperation should not have been so obliging, don't co-operate. That's what is called a Ablenkungsmanöver.
Posted by
Wengen
2493 posts
That crime on German trains is rare is not an emotional reaction. Stating that security on German trains is "out of control" however is. I can understand the emotional reaction, but I would suggest not to let that overwhelm you. Crime is rare. The Zurich police only sees those few passengers that complain, and not the million other passengers that pass through ZRH Hb every day and encounter no issues whatsoever.
Train travel is safe. Safety on German trains is not "out of control". You had a bad experience, and I feel sorry for you, but there is no need to paint a picture that is fare removed from reality. Train travel is safe. It is disappointing when DB turns out to be only 10 times as good as US trains, in stead of the expected 20 times as good. But such are the things currently..
Regarding the conductors not checking "new passengers": They do check tickets. They will pass through the several times, but yes, it happens all the time that a passenger does not get checked immediately after boarding. That happens pretty much on every single train in Europe.
Posted by
Uppsala, Sweden
6970 posts
I'm sorry to hear that your bag was stolen. But it's not DB's responsibility. Since you like you refer to the 1371/2007 regulation, lets have a look at what it actually says in article 15:
It shall be the passenger’s responsibility to supervise the hand
luggage and animals that he takes with him.
And in article 33:
In other respects, the carrier shall not be liable for the total or
partial loss of, or damage to, articles, hand luggage or animals the
supervision of which is the responsibility of the passenger in
accordance with Article 15, unless this loss or dam- age is caused by
the fault of the carrier.
Posted by
Phoenix🌵
3070 posts
Kim, thank you for reporting your experience. Not all of us are experienced travelers so don't know about some of the issues. I plan to take DB in June from Munich to Berlin. I will certainly keep a closer watch of my luggage than I did this year on SNCF and Trenitalia (no problems except delayed because of a dead person the tracks in Genoa).
Posted by
New York, NY
4071 posts
I traveled on the Deuche Bahn from October 4 through October 12.
I took 3 ICE trains:
- Frankfurt Flughafen to Berlin
- Berlin to Hagen (The train was going to Köln)
- Hagen to Frankfurt Flughafen (Hamburg to München train)
I also took 2 RE trains & 2 RB trains in the state of Nordrhein-Westfalen.
Not once did I see anything you described above. The trains were clean, safe, and had clean toilets. Nothing about my experience was Third World. They were reliable.
How awful your experience must’ve been. My biggest fear was when saboteurs intentionally cut the fiber optic cables on Saturday Oct 8 outside of Berlin and somewhere in NRW cutting off service. Service was restored three hours later but sporadically.
One of my RE trains was canceled because somebody tragically committed suicide outside of Münster. One certainly cannot blame DB service for that cancellation.
Posted by
OP
Amsterdam
6 posts
Badger, you are correct that train travelers carry the responsibility for their belongings. And EU transportation companies carry responsibility to provide safe travel environments.
The Dutch NS system makes a public commitment for their role in safe travel. "Every day, NS works together with the government, ProRail and the police to make public transport even safer. NS is always open to suggestions for new measures to make travellers feel even safer." NS asks passengers to report unsafe situations while aboard the train, by sending a WhatsApp message to their safety line or to call 112 for emergencies. In the first year, Dutch NS personnel took immediate action and intervention in about half of the WhatsApp cases including vandalism, harassment, and theft. Safety instructions are located on the windows of the train cars.
Posted by
Wengen
2493 posts
You have to be aware what is meant with "ensuring passenger safety" in the context of regulations.
This is about ensuring that passengers do not suffer injury or death. It is about not crashing trains. It is about making sure that passengers do not fall out of moving trains. It is about making sure that you do not trip over on stairs, slip on platforms or get hurt by an escalator. That is what this is about.
This is not, and never was, about protecting passengers against petty theft. That is, and always has been, mostly the passengers' own responsibility.
Posted by
TX, USA
4811 posts
Thanks for sharing this. You presented a calm report of your experience, focused on helping other travelers be better prepared. We would all love to think all travel is rosy and happy - but stuff happens. It is good to be reminded it could be us next and not be complacent.
Posted by
Duluth 🛶
7980 posts
I'm sorry that you lost your bags and hope that you had travel insurance. However, I find it very hard to believe that the theft of personal property entitles a passenger to compensation for that stolen luggage. I looked through EU Regs 13712007 and did not see anything about reimbursement for the theft of a passenger's luggage.
Perhaps you could post the specific regulation that address this? I'm a retired attorney and didn't see it but it's certainly possible I missed it. However, since you brought it up, I think it would be helpful if you could point to it directly.
But a situation like this is certainly worth keeping in mind when you travel by any means and in any country. That said, I traveled by train throughout Germany for a month this year and had no problems with anything like this. There were a few delays but overall the train system worked admirably (and certainly much better than the our trains in the US). 😊
Posted by
San Francisco
14976 posts
Riding German trains day or night, I never ever considered safety in regards to other passengers, passenger theft, etc as an issue, never fell for some scam or fairy tale by the bad guys to take off with my stuff. The exception was when my cell phone was lifted in 1st class on the ICE, since I had fallen asleep. No big deal, only a nuisance, as I had no important data at all stored in the phone, PIN numbers, account numbers, etc. That incident I see as a fluke.
Only once in France taking the Caen-Paris TER train in 2001 was I (solo) seriously anxious about my personal safety when several punk wannabes got on and began bothering, pestering the passengers, myself included. What they said, I couldn't understand linguistically anyway, and made no effort to understand. I watched , however, which passengers they left alone....revealing. The SNCF train attendant was mostly absent. Obviously, I couldn't wait for the train to arrive in Paris.
Posted by
Munich
559 posts
I'm very sorry about your loss.
Beginning of this year I was going by train solo and therefore I was checking how to avoid this kind of situation. I found as well the info that DB is not reliable for stolen items. German State Police (Bundespolizei) mentioned somewhere that the passanger must take care of his baggage/personal belongings. They even proposed to somehow tie your luggage with sort of a bike lock when you are a solo traveler. Well I did not do so but maybe will when I'm going solo from Munich to Venice. Long ride and for sure I must stand up several times and leave my luggage alone. Of course it is mandatory to always keep your handbag/purse with you.