First trip to Europe

We are planning on 3 weeks, I have several of Ricks books I have been reading along with others...We are visiting a cousin who is a semanarian in Rome, want to see Venice, Sound of Music Fan, so Salzburg, Auschwitz, Berlin, Paris and from what I am reading it is best to see the Swiss Alps while in Salzburg? Not sure if we should start in Rome and work our way up or plan a round trip say in/out of London and do a circle? Any help is appreciated Thanks

You're kind of all over the map here. My first suggestion would to prioritize what you want to see, look at a map, and string together a logical progression. As it stands, your wish-list has you bounding all over the place. At a rushed pace, it might take you 3 weeks to see all of that. If budget is a concern, you'll chew up a king's ransom with all that moving around. Also worth mentioning... the Swiss Alps and "small budget" are usually not found in the same sentence without the word "not". And they are also somewhat isolated from the major travel routes throughout the continent. If you desire Alpine fun without breaking the bank, I suggest looking for something between Venice and Salzburg. Still not cheap, but a bargain compared to Switzerland.

"and from what I am reading it is best to see the Swiss Alps while in Salzburg?" The Swiss Alps are a few hundred kilometers west of Salzburg. The Tyolian Alps, however, are much closer.

I know it is alot, but I don't know if I will ever get back to Europe, I would consider chopping Berlin out, but Rome, Venice, Salzburg, Auschwitz and Paris are musts and I would like to squeeze in London. I was told you could see the Alps from the Salzkommergut Lake district near Salzburg....I don't need to climb them, just see them.

Honestly, this doesn't sound realistic to me. Your first trip to Europe. Check. 3 weeks. Check. Small budget. Check. OK, so far, so good. But then you get to.... We want to see Rome, Venice, Salzburg, Auschwitz, Berlin, the Swiss Alps, Paris and possibly London BZZZZZZZZT. Thanks for playing. What doesn't fit here? London certainly doesn't. It's one of the most expensive cities in Europe. And it's also a long way from the bulk of your destinations. I'd also say the same about Paris. Lop off London and Paris, and you can build a very nice "first time to Europe" trip around the other stuff. But I'll join the chorus here who will undoubtedly tell you "too much to do on a budget with that amount of time."

Lori- 6 cities in 21 days is a lot of travel- however in the old days we did 10 countries in 12 days (a lot of snoozing on the bus); if you really want to do it that way, then make sure your travel is part of your sightseeing- so use the trains and ask this board for scenic routes. London and Paris connect by the Euro-Star through the tunnel in a few hours; so they are doable together. Rome and Venice are connected by train. So it seems if you start in London then Paris, you need to get to salzburg and then end up in Italy (or vice versa). Not sure how Auschwitz fits in. Its a lot of travel, and exhausting, but it can be done- although most people on this board will advise against it. As I think of it, there are a number of scenic train journeys between Italy and Switzerland (most mentioned on this Board), but then not sure how you can fit in Salzburg. Name your poison, grit your teeth and do it

First, you need to do a lot of homework 'cause you are bouncing all the place. Second, look at a map and recognizes some of the distances involved. Third, a small budget with seven or eight different locations will be killed by the transportations costs. Fourth, to save some costs, consider an open jaw tickets maybe into Rome and home from Paris or London so that you don't have the transportation costs of returning to your starting point. Personally I would save Paris and London for another trip. A very large ballpark figure for your three weeks and eight locations could be $10,000 excluding air fare. How close is that to your small budget?

Wow.... You say small budget. What do you mean? What's small to me may be big to you, or the other way about... What time of year? It does make a difference. I understand that this is your first trip to Europe. Its tempting to try to do the whole lot at once and let all the pent-up travellness out, but please have a read around this Helpline and see how we encourage most folk to narrow down and enjoy rather than blink and miss. Less is More. London - 5 days (very expensive) Paris - 5 days (pretty expensive) Rome - 5 days (expensive and exhausting but perhaps less so if staying with family) Venice - 3 days (very, very expensive) Salzburg - 3 to 5 days or more depending on sidetrips Swiss Alps - Berner Oberland - 5 days (eye wateringly expensive) Auschwitz Birkenau - way way out of the way - one day Berlin - 4 days (can be quite inexpensive). ====== 33 days if not rushing, or just short of 5 weeks not counting travel. A question, if its not rude - do you need to get to Auschwitz particularly or would a different Concentration Camp be sufficient instead? If so Dachau near Munich might be much more convenient.... Good luck planning. By the way, are all 3 adults?

For budget travelers such as my daughter and I, we stay in hostels have been VERY forturnate. You will only be in your rooms long enough to sleep and wash clothes. My suggestions would be take your time planning the logistics of your trip. Then compare the cost of point-to-point tickets to the different Rail Passes. Most definitely save London for another trip. Rome and Venice is a long way from Switzerland, Austria and Germany. The trains connections between Switzerland, Austia and Germany are excellent. In Germany there are good buys on Lander and Barvarian Train Tickets. Barvarian Tickets can be used between Munich and Salzburg. Dachau is 30 mins by train from Munich. Here are links to Hostels and Hostel Reviews: http://www.bug.co.uk/reviews/hostels/Europe/index.htm http://www.hostelz.com/ Hostels in Germany, Switzerland and Austria are immaculate. Take all reservation confirmations with you and reconfirm a couple of days ahead of your arrival. You can buy food at Delis, street vendors and grocery stores to save money. Enjoy!

BTW, we stayed in private 2 or 1 bed rooms with bathroom and shower.

Yes all 3 of us are adults, it would be myself, husband and 23 yr old daughter, who is a teacher so Auschwitz is a must for her. Salzburg is a must for me. In addition to Italy (Rome and Venice)my husband would like to see the Alps. I am willing to cut out London and Paris I just thought it would be nice to fly into Rome and out of one of those cities. This is turning into a headache to plan when it should be enjoyable.

One of the reasons it is the headache is because you are planning too much at once. You need to set some priorities or rank order to the things you want to see and do. Then get a map and put some pins in it so you understand distances and relationships. Go to your public library for DVDs on the areas you are interested in seeing. And then adopt this phrase -- We can see that next time. On our first trip in 72 that was my wife's constant comment. Took a lot of stress out of the trip. Next trip was in 93. You have to assume you will be back. Otherwise you go nuts trying to see everything (and then you really see so little) and stressing about what did I miss. You cannot see it ALL so make it a point to see it well what you do see.

If it's turned into a headache, set everything aside and take a deep breath. Then consider the possibility that you're trying to bite off more than you can chew in three weeks. It's better to go and enjoy what you are able to do in the allotted time. Less really is more. Even if you never return to Europe. If you think planning is a headache, consider the headache you'll get when your trip turns out to be a blur of cities and interminable arrivals and departures from trains stations and airports.

You could break your trip into three zones. This is just an example, although I think it allows for you to ease into the cultural experience (hmmmm, maybe not Paris, but the rest is in order somewhat of an order in terms of complexity). 1. Fly into London, spend 4 days; train to Paris, spend 3 days. 2. Fly from Paris (Orly) on Air Berlin to Munich. Spend the next 6 days exploring south to Salzburg. Sub Dachau for Auschwitz. You could venture west to Switzerland, but there are some pretty amazing views in this area. 3. Circle back to Munich and fly into Venice on Air Berlin. 3 days in Venice. Train to Rome. 3 days in Rome. Fly home from Rome. Save Berlin for another trip. It is an interesting place but it's location is not ideal for what you are trying to do.

Lori, As the others have mentioned, trying to visit eight geographically distant locations in 21-days only allows about 2.6 days in each one, with no allowances for travel time between them. While it might be feasible, it wouldn't be an enjoyable holiday. Dropping a few of the cities would allow much easier planning. It may be possible to work out a realistic Itinerary that would cover most of the places on your list. However, it will probably be necessary to choose airports more on the basis of how well they work with your goals, rather on which one is "the cheapest". I'd suggest checking flight options for Frankfurt, as it's a major "hub" so there should be lots of flights available. Could you indicate whether your daughter is "firm" on visiting Auschwitz, or whether one of the other Camps would suffice? As the others have mentioned, Dachau fits well with the other areas you want to visit. OTOH, Auschwitz is a considerable distance, which means using precious travel time to get there and that will also add to your travel costs. If you include Berlin, Sachsenhausen is possible and Mathausen is fairly close to Salzburg. As this is your first trip, I'd highly recommend pre-reading Europe Through The Back Door. Is that one of the books that you presently have on hand? For travel between locations, train is usually the easiest and most efficient option. However you'll need to wait until you have the cities and order of travel worked out before you decide on the transportation method. Also, you'll need the cities, etc. worked out before you can start planning "travel, hotels, etc." With some further information, I may be able to suggest a possible Itinerary. Cheers!

Thanks everyone for the responses, Ken, my daughter is firm on Auschwitz, being a teacher it is important to her. I am the Sound of Music fan so I need Salzburg and we are visiting a family member in Rome. While in Italy we wanted to see Venice (a day is fine to see what we want to see) we are not big museum people, and after a Vatican tour we will have our fill of church. My husband wanted to see the Alps and some of Germany. We are looking at leaving the states on June 9 and would like to do Rome first as the family memeber is a semanarian and will have exams and other travel from the 18th on. I would appreciate your suggestions in an itinerary. Thank you.

It appears that Rome and Venice is firm; therefore, after that segment, your daughter could fly to Krakow, Poland and then on to Auschwitz. You and your husband could fly to Switzerland and on to Lauterbrunnen then meet up with your daughter in Germany. Visit Salzburg and fly out of Munich to home. Just a suggestion.

Lori A couple of observations, if you allow. First, full marks to your daughter to want to go to Auschwitz despite its remoteness. Do be aware that while Auschwitz gets the lion's share of the publicity the same atrocious acts were committed, and are memorialized at those Camps mentioned above. You and your daughter will want at least some familiarity with Polish as Poles don't universally speak German, and you will require changing currency into Zlotys because Poland is not scheduled to join the Euro for some time. Many first time tourists start easily by landing in London so the culture shock is not so sharp. At least the language, if nothing else, is reasonably similar. On the other hand starting in Rome, jumping in at the deep end, at least you know somebody who can help. Also, you will avoid the worst of the heat by going south to north. Make sure you leave enough time in the Salzburg area so you can get into the Salzkamergut for lots of Sound of Music goodies. Its a shame you won't want to go into another church after the Vatican. Most of the best architecture and art are in the churches in Rome and Venice. Also, there is a complete dearth of places to sit in Venice. Churches are full of (usually) free seats, and out of the heat. I hear what you're saying about one day in Venice to "see what you want to see". I hope you don't wish after travelling so far that you had one more day there.

Lori, Would something like this work: > Jun. 9 - Flight to Rome > Jun. 10 - Arrive Rome (recover from jet lag) > Jun. 11 - Rome > Jun. 12 - Rome > Jun. 13 - Train to Venice - easy via ES/AV, about 3H:48M. > Jun. 14 - Venice > Jun. 15 - Train to Lucerne (trip is ~6H:51M, with 2 changes. A good way to enjoy the scenery and you'll be there by afternoon). > Jun. 16 - Lucerne - tour the city, take a day trip to the Alps (Mount Pilatus is a possibility) > Jun. 17 - Lucerne - visit the Museum of Transport, "Lion of Lucerne" or take a boat trip > Jun. 18 - Train to Munich (the train I'd use departs at 08:10, arriving 13:28, time 5H:18M, one change in Zurich) > Jun. 19 - Munich (tour the city, visit Neuschwanstein or Dachau - this also allows your husband to see "some of Germany") > Jun. 20 - Munich > Jun. 21 - Train to Salzburg (Easy trip - under 2-hours by direct train) > Jun. 22 - Salzburg (perhaps day trip to Hallstatt or Berchtesgaden (another historic site for your daughter would be the Dokumentation Center and/or Eagle's Nest) > Jun. 23 - Salzburg > Jun. 24 - Train to Vienna - ~2H:43M via direct train > Jun. 25 - Vienna > Jun. 26 - Vienna > Jun. 27 - Train to Krakow - Travel time ~7H:52M with one change or take direct night train on Jun. 26 > Jun. 28 - Krakow / Auschwitz > Jun. 29 - Krakow or flight home continued.....

Lori, Part 2.... There are many ways this Itinerary could be arranged, but this is one method. I used rail travel rather than budget airline as IMHO the travel times don't warrant going by air. Even on short flights, it's necessary to allocate 4-6 hours considering all the usual airport routines - travel, check-in, security, waiting times, etc. not to mention very restrictive baggage rules. Travel by train will also be more relaxing, allow you to see some of the country, visit with other travellers and no worries about baggage size or weight. Be sure to read the "Rail Skills" chapter in Europe Through The Back Door and do some "homework" on rail travel in Europe. You'll have to deal with "changes" and in some cases you'll only have a few minutes. Also, some cities have several stations, so you'll need to be sure you know which ones you'll be using. You may enjoy watching This Short Video. Of course, the train schedules and travel times shown are subject to change. The schedules for next year won't be posted yet. You'll have to verify those closer to your trip. Although this suggested Itinerary doesn't include London, Paris or Berlin, it seems to cover the locations that are most important to all of you. As Rick frequently says "Assume you will return"! Cheers!

Ken, THANK YOU!! I think this may work for us...do you suggest I buy a Eurorail pass before we go or get tickets once we are there? I was finding it difficult to find air for the places we wanted to go, I think that is what was giving me the headache. I really appreciate everyones suggestions and comments (weather I liked them or not) If anyone has suggestions for budget lodging I would love to hear your ideas, I was told that we could stay with nuns in Rome for a reasonable price, my cousin has a suggestion for Venice and Krakow.

Lori, You'll need to do some "number crunching" to determine whether a Railpass will be the best value for this particular Itinerary. Keep in mind that Railpasses do not include reservation fees for trains on which these are compulsory. Railpasses are not the bargain they once were! Many of the routes I suggested have reserved seating, and I felt this was a better option as these are usually the fastest trains. While Regional trains are less expensive, they're also a lot slower in many cases, and with only three weeks to work with that was a concern. Lee or some of the others be able to provide good information on the rail options, especially in Germany and Austria. You'll may find that the most cost effective option is a combination of a Railpass along with P-P tickets for some routes (you may have to buy the tickets a few days in advance to get the best discounts). Click on the "Railpasses" tab at the top and have a look at the information there. You could also download the free PDF Rail Guide from the same page. Somewhere in that section, there's a "Planning Guide" which provides approximate costs for P-P tickets between various cities. That will provide a "rough estimate" of the costs, and allow you to compare that to a Railpass. There's also information there that shows the Reservation fees (if my memory is correct). Another avenue you could look at is the enter the details of your Itinerary into This Site. I've found that it won't answer all the questions, but will give you some idea on the options. Cheers!

"....my daughter is firm on Auschwitz, being a teacher it is important to her." Since the OP has said this twice, I have to ask. What is special about Auschwitz that a teacher must see it versus other comparable sites. Is it because of its infamy?

"What is special about Auschwitz that a teacher must see it versus other comparable sites. Is it because of its infamy?" Infamy, that might be it. Which death camp to visit is a matter of personal preference, some will feel they don't need to go all the way to Poland, but it's certainly understandable why many feel it is. Been trying to avoid quoting Rick but the Master might have nailed it here: "Why visit a notorious concentration camp on your vacation? Auschwitz-Birkenau is one of the most moving sights in Europe, and certainly the most important of all the Holocaust memorials. Auschwitz isn't for everyone. But I've never met anyone who toured Auschwitz and regretted it. For many, it's a life-altering experience - and at the very least it will forever affect the way you think about the Holocaust." (from Best of Eastern Europe)

But Kent, I felt the same way about Mauthausen. It was a life-changing experience. I don't understand why it has to be Auschwitz simply because she's a teacher. You can learn the same lessons from any of the camps.

I don't disagree with Nancy: it doesn't have to be Auschwitz. The question I was trying to address in my post was the one asked by Michael, which is why did the OP feel it had to be Auschwitz? My answer was: that's understandable. If someone wanted to experience a place where unimaginable horrors were inflicted, it would make sense to go to the worst.

"we are not big museum people" Uh-oh, now I have to give my speech...;-) (lots of disclaimers) GENERALLY speaking, for MOST Americans, you haven't been to a museum until you've been to a European museum. And that goes for churches, too. (yes, there are fantastic museums and works of architecture in North America, but just not where most of us can see them). Please, please (yes, I'm begging you!) go to a few of these world-class museums and just browse through their collections for a few hours. And pop into some of those churches - if the door is open, you're welcome to enter. You may discover that you're googoo for sculpture or a huge fan of Giotto...but you've just never been exposed to the 'good stuff'! And please come back in August 2011 and let us know if you're planning your NEXT trip yet...;-)

Thanks for your words, Lori. My cousin's wife's family is from Hungary and much of the family went to Auschwitz and none returned. So I do understand. I understood when she went to Auschwitz with her daughter. We haven't been offering alternates (to which I have gone) in order to make it difficult, rather to try to meet the needs you expressed in your original post. Truly best wishes to you as visit those places which have drawn you, and especially your pilgrimage.

Don't get upset folks, we understand that every concentration camp has meaning and was just as horrible as the next. However for own personal reasons we wish to see Auschwitz. I am not saying we will not visit other camps as well. We had dear family friends who were involved in this and for this reason we wish to go where it all happened for them.

Hi Lori - Traveling is not fun when you are tired, rushing from one city to another. Everything becomes a big blur and can be terribly disorienting. I do understand about wanting to experience Auschwitz as I feel compelled to visit also. Continue researching your trip. It's a great learning experience and you will soon learn what to add and what to eliminate. Relax and don't get discouraged.
I missed a lot of things on my first trip to Europe. I learned a lot about what to do and what not to do. I knew I had to go back to Paris. Subsequent trips proved much more satisfying because I narrowed my trip to one or two cities. The budget is the most important factor and as you research you will become more realistic and begin to prioritize. Best of Luck

Lori, I know just how you feel! When I was planning my husband and I's first European trip two years ago...I honestly felt completely overwhelmed. We only were there for 10 days and we both had some "must sees". We ended up doing a loop from Paris to Switzerland and Germany (with a lunch in Liechenstein), all using a rental car. We did what we wanted, and some places felt too short, but we had the trip of a lifetime, and don't regret any of it. We had some good advice, some criticism of our choices, but all in all, these boards were invaluable. We ended up doing what we wanted, and had a fabulous time. In all honesty, it did take me months to plan it, but it was worth it in the end. We also had a tight budget, and I did manage to find great places to stay, even on a budget. Keep reading, keep posting, and even if you don't use everyone's advice, it is all valuable..... I just finished booking our first family European vacation to England and Scotland for this coming June, and it was much less overwhelming this time.... Hang in there!!!!!
Sandi

A few quick comments. My own comment is that on a first time three-week trip to Europe, two stops that should strongly be considered are London and Paris, but I understand that you need to visit Rome, Salzburg and Auschwitz, which makes logistically difficult including London and Paris. Though my European travel experience is far less than that of many posting on this forum, I thought Ken's itinerary made much sense. I have never been to Berlin, but that might be a good city to fly out of after Auschwitz. I have been to both Vienna and Salzburg. In retrospect, though we liked Vienna, we would not have included Vienna on our trip. But Salzburg was the surprise hit. My first stab at your itinerary would be something like Rome (3 nights), Venice (2 nights), Salzburg (3 nights), Krakow (2 nights), Paris (4 nights), London (4 nights). My second stab would be something like Rome (3 nights), Florence (3 nights), Venice (2 nights), Switzerland (3 nights), Salzburg (3 nights), Krakow (2 nights), Berlin (3 nights).

I suggest Dachau, Germany, just outside Munich and an hour west from Salzburg as an alternative to Auschwitz. Frankly, they are similar. Also suggest flying into Rome, train up to Venice, train to Salzburg (just took the sound of music tour with Panorama Tours a month ago) and then train to Munich as a full itinerary for 3 weeks.

Hi Lori, With 3 weeks to carry out your present itinerary, you can do it but logistically it calls for careful planning, including one discount flight from London Stansted-Berlin Tegel, where you spend at least 3 full days. Then take the train (day or night) Berlin-Krakow, which in the summer is a direct day train, 10hrs. (I did this ride in 2001). Stay in Krakow and do the day trip to Auschwitz. I would suspect that Krakow-Salzburg would involve a number of train changes, which I personally would try to avoid...check on that. Is Paris going to be last stop on the continent before returning to London for the flight to Detroit? If you do include Berlin, the Meininger Hotel (yes, it's a chain) near the Berlin Hauptbahnhof is good, very reasonable, at least it was in the summer, good location. OR, you can save Berlin for last, then fly from there, Berlin Tegel to London Stansted.

Krakow to Salzburg doesn't need to have so many changes. One change in Katowice and another in Vienna. Perhaps one more to get across Vienna. After being in a train for a while stretching the legs feels good to me.... 10 and half to 11 and a half hours for the lot

Thanks for information on going from Krakow-Salzburg. Easier than I thought. No problem transfering in Vienna.