Family of 5. Should we rent a car?

Scott913,

welcome.

Im with you and your wifie about loving the train system in europe.

I cant comment about cost for 5 since i do the solo thing.

But what comes to my mind is:

• is everyone mobile?

• In my research, individual point to point tickets was cheaper than a "rail pass", again, this was solo and i will say that i didnt go from London to Brugge, but london to Paris.

• you may want to say how long you plan on staying in each city and where.

my comment.

1. Is that Paris is closer via train. if paris doesnt float you alls boat, then its okay.

2. I would also look at flights from London to Brugge. If you were to get a car in London, you still have to cross that channel. Then drive across france.

happy trails.

I won't comment about the UK, but I see no advantage of a rental car in Paris, Brugge or the trip between the two. The area of interest to tourists in Brugge is small enough that you can easily manage on foot, and parts of the old city (near the stuff that tourists come to see) are traffic-free. And a car in Paris is an expensive inconvience. Forget railpasses. Preorder your tickets Thalys for the best ticket prices.

Personally see no need to have a car at all. Certainly don't need one in Edinburgh or London. I would just take train from Edinburgh to London and then fly to Brugges. Also you need to think of the size car you would need to hold five people comfortably and can store five pieces of luggage. That is something you also need to think about.

The UK's long-distance coach operator National Express offers advance-purchase "funfares" for Edinburgh - London for as little as 15 British Pounds. Same for London to Brussels. I don't think there's a single railpass that includes the countries you have in mind, but if there were, it would cost thousands more for 5 people.

National Express

Much to see between Edinburgh and London, e.g. Melrose Abbey ruin, Hadrian's Wall, Yorkshire Dales, York, Chatsworth, so if you have time get a full size car in Edinburgh and take a couple of days driving to London. After that the train seems the way to go.

You don't need 5 rail passes. You just need point to point tickets.

For Edinburgh to London, you can buy "Advance" tickets at a discount. You can check prices at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk.

For London to Bruges, you can buy your tickets on http://www.eurostar.com for London to Any Belgian Station. You'll change trains in Brussels. The lowest priced tickets are available 4 months out.

When you take into account parking, gas, the cost to cross the channel, the fee for dropping off the car in another country, etc., I think you will find the train will probably work out cheaper.

If you want to see much between Edinburgh and London (there's plenty to see as Tex notes), you could drive that part, drop the car, and do the rest by train. Auto Europe shows a Ford Galaxy minivan for five days in July between Edinburgh rail station and Stanstead Airport (just north of London) for $930 with basic insurance and $1365 with full coverage. Of course you have lodging, food, and gas too. Less for a shorter rental period, I just picked five days because that's the least time I'd take if I had no other constraints.

The National Rail System won't show fares that far ahead, but for a February trip the one-way fare between Edinburgh and Kings Cross is around $800 for three adults and two kids, for a five-hour nonstop. Probably more in summer. That's a fast and scenic train, you're less likely to hear "Are we there yet?", but you can't get off to explore the country you're speeding through.

So maybe it has more to do with time than cost. If you have time, the flexibility of driving lets you see a lot. If not, the train is fast and cheaper even for five. Consider whether you want to drive on the left, it's harder for me than I thought it would be but many on this board have no trouble. If you drive, get something big enough for your people and luggage (the Galaxy theoretically seats 7, other big cars theoretically seat 5 but without much trunk space).

After London I'd use the Eurostar to Brussels or trains + ferry. You don't want or need a car in any of your three cities, and anyway you wouldn't want to take that British car onto the Continent where they drive on the correct side!

I don't know what you have in mind for Plan B, but Plan A sounds pretty good to me. Have fun!

Dick, where did you get thr $800 total for five people from Edinburgh to Kings Cross? You must be looking at full price tickets.

I just checked a random date in February and I see adult Advance fare tickets for 29.50 GBP. The price for 3 adults and 2 children totals 118GBP. I see even lower prices on other dates when I check http://www.eastcoast.co.uk.

Where did Paris come from? I don't see that in plan A.

You go to Belgium and Brussels for Brugge by train, and Flanders by car, you don't go anywhere near Paris.

It is a simple drive (but very expensive and who is going to want you to drop a right-hand-drive car in Belgium - I can't imagine the drop charge!!) or even simpler train via a super easy change in Brussels.

I hate rental cars and will do my best to never have another rental in Europe. So there's my disclaimer up front. My advice is that if you do decide to rent, verify that you'll be able to get a vehicle big enough for all 5 persons + luggage...and there's the kicker.

I actually have done a rental van in the past with 6 passengers plus luggage. It wasn't a pleasant experience with all of us crammed into the van and luggage in every nook and cranny and under our legs in just absolutely packed like sardines. And that was a full size van...not one of those chopped down versions with no luggage storage.

Just take trains and taxis when needed and make your life a whole lot simpler.

@ Nigel,

I suggested Paris instead of Brugge and Tom went with it.

Scott913 asked about replacing Brugge with some other city so that is how Paris ended up there.

Did not mean to make it more confusing for the OP or anyone.

Happy trails.

Train from Edinburgh to London for 3 adults and 2 children can come out at just under £12 each, using all available discounts (group save, advance tickets, book on East Coast website). Need to jump on the booking as soon as it is available for this kind of fare.

Thank you all! Lot's of great advice and food for thought.

When buying tickets for the journey(s) within the UK (can't speak to those discounts in Europe nor on the Eurostar), be sure to use the exact words Marco used for the discounts. They are technical terms which have a specific meaning, and he has named them exactly. That is the best way to save money.

scott913,

To add to the growing chorus, I'd also suggest that well planned rail journeys will likely be the best and least expensive solution for your group. You might find it helpful to browse the excellent Man in Seat 61 website, as there's an excellent description there on buying tickets on East Coast Rail. As I recall, you'll need to collect your tickets from a Kiosk in Edinburgh, using the same credit card used to book them.

The trip from Edinburgh Waverly to London King's Cross is very pleasant and only takes a few hours. Were you planning to make any intermediate stops (ie: York), or go directly to London? When you arrive in London, you can use the Tube or other local transport to reach the area of your hotel.

For the trip to Bruges, you'll need to travel to London St. Pancras to access the EuroStar to Brussels. Allow LOTS of time as you MUST check-in at least 30 minutes prior to your train, or you won't be riding! You'll also need time to clear Passport control and go through an airport-style security check. Significant savings are possible if the tickets are booked well in advance, but often the tickets are non-refundable so BE SURE of your details when you book! That's also covered extensively on the above website.

As I recall, the EuroStar uses Brussels Midi/Zuid, and you should be able to connect with a train there for the one hour (or so) trip to Bruges. You'll have to walk from the "international" part of the station, to the "regular" part of the station. Be vigilant for pickpockets and scammers while there! On my last trip there, I was accosted with the "you've got something on your pack, let me help you clean it" scam (I told him to p@$$ off).

As the others have mentioned, using a rental vehicle has some "issues", not the least of which is driving on the "correct side of the road". There will also be high fuel costs, parking, CDW, different traffic rules (ie: no left turn on red, roundabouts) etc., so it may not be the cheapest or most pleasant holiday experience. If it's a manual transmission, you'll be shifting with your left hand. I don't find driving there to be overly difficult, but it does require some concentration.

Happy travels!

It depends on what you want from the trip. If you are going to tour Edinburgh and then go see London, take the train. If you want to see places in between that aren't reached by train, rent a car. You'll have no problem finding a car that can handle five people and luggage as long as you're sensible about the bags. Whether you drive into London or not is up to you. If you have a GPS you can drive into London, drop the people and bags at the hotel then turn in the car. London driving isn't the nightmare that people make it out to be particularly with the advent of GPS.

Laura, thanks for looking harder than I did for rail fares. Makes the train a no-brainer unless Scott wants to take time and explore.

If you do drive into central London on Monday to Friday 0700-1800 you must pay the £10 Congestion Charge the same day or risk a very large fine.

The website is http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/congestioncharging/6709.aspx

Regarding the car option in Britain:

The car price seems high, check something besides AE.

London to Edinburgh is an eight hour drive if you push really hard.

Stansted will involve extra costs to get into central London.

It's becoming common in the UK to incur an additional fee to drop a vehicle in a second location.

A few thoughts from personal experience:

Packing light vs. heavy - We traveled with three kids in tow (ages 16, 12 and 8). Each of us had only a carry-on, the youngest only a school daypack. We fit perfectly in a seven passenger vehicle. If we had been larger people or carrying more luggage, we would have been cramped. Make sure you plan space for your bags.

Renting small vs. big car - I've found economy rentals are cheap, especially if you can drive a standard transmission. As the car gets bigger, the rental cost goes up a lot. If you will be there awhile, check out leasing on larger cars - that's when they're the best deal.

Buying multiple train tickets vs. rental car - I think for two people trains are cheaper, for four people cars are cheaper (you have to price it for three people). Normally with five people a rental is going to be the better deal.

Buying rail passes - It's been years since I purchased a pass. Passes cost more than point to point tickets on all but the longest legs. Regardless of whether you train or car, don't get passes.

Any mobility issues (I consider packing heavy a mobility issue)? If yes, a rental car will be a better option.

What is your itinerary? A city heavy itinerary lends itself better to trains, a country/small town itinerary lends itself better to cars. If you don't plan intermediate stops between Edinburgh, London and Brugge, you probably don't need a car - but might want to consider a flight from Edinburgh to London rather than a train (or a pass may be economical) it's a long leg by my standards.

kids of that age are half price in the UK. With that sort of group a "Family and Friends" railcard will very likely pay for itself and put change back in your pocket - these are for train trips.

Be sure the kids and the MIL can handle their own bags, even have them practice before going, including escalators with a bacpack or rolling bag. I've seen too many fathers saddled down with everyone else's junk while the kids skip alongside. For me this would be a consideration when deciding between car or train.

Maybe this was mentioned and I missed it - but with a car rental and 5 people - you can't go too compact, even if everyone just has carry-on, you would still have to get 5 suitcases into the trunk...not gonna happen in a small car...

Train,, rental car for five , cramped and pricey .. gas $$$ and parking $$$.

Brugges for kids.. boring..

Edinburgh , London, Paris,, those are cities with lots for kids to see and do. Brugges bored me and I am middleaged.. ( yes, its "pretty",,but that washes with kids for about an hour or two.. )

I didn't see you mention total length of trip.. but for me and your plan I hope its at least 2 full weeks long.. I have travelled my kids and we both found it more interesting, educational and fun if we had minimum of three full days in one place,, ( but hey, if going to Brugges you can disregard that) Places like London and Paris deserve min, of 4 full days in my opinion.. of course some folks just like to rush through, tick of some "must see " boxes and then go home and say they "have done" a place. lol

lesseeifwecanborethekids:

running up and down a really tall really big tower and seeing bells playing at the top where they can look out over the whole town's roofs and hearing the bells from the bottom too

eating chocolate in funny shapes

watching and or riding carriages pulled by horses

bicycles bumping on cobblestones

boat ride

more chocolate in different funny shapes

old roman ruins right under a modern hotel (hold your noses!!)

funny buildings with steps on the roofs

real windmills to watch, and some to go in

watching the boats

bike ride up to Damme

laughing about the name of Damme

real fries with strange sauces and strange meats - a real adventure

Playing in AstridPark

Riding the train

...

areweboredyet???

No?

how about a fudge factory

gelato

even more chocolate with even weirder shapes

running alongside the canals getting ahead of the boats

riding the kosttram

ribs

skating at the Christmas Market (not so easy in summer - granted)

still bored? No?

Well I am so that short list will have to do ...

I don't have kids but my niece loved the place, big time. Oh, I forgot what kept so happy for a good deal of the time - composing and taking pictures of all sorts of things she didn't have at home. I still have hundreds of them. Thank goodness she was born after digital photography came on the scene....

Nigel.. your list didn't make me see it much differently, different strokes I guess, Eating chocolate is not an activity that would amuse us for more then a few minutes. The boat cruise took what 1/2 an hour.. . and gelato and ribs..I am confused.. those have nothing to do specifically with Brugges .

Ribs ("ribbetjes") are on the menu at just about every non-ethnic restaurant in Belgium... I'm assuming that's what you meant, Nigel?

yes. we're not trying to keep Pat from being bored, we're trying to keep a 10 year old and a 9 year old from being bored. Pat has determined to be bored, so she will be. My point is that there is plenty in Brugge to keep kids going.

Yes, that's the ribs I meant. There are so many that in Gent there are even 2 different restaurants near each other with the name Adam's Ribs. And tasty. And bottomless, with different finishes.

Nigel your list bored me.. sorry if eating chocolates and ribs is an activity for you fine( gelato is Italian) .. I am using my experience having been through Europe as a child myself, and having taken my own kids( did your kids really find it that fun Nigel?) .. that is my perspective n Brugges and no use to argue it.. I have found hundreds of other wonderful places that are not as boring as Brugges.. not should one should exclaim how exciting you THINK kids would find it .. unless you have personal experience with your kids or yourself being a kid.
Not sure why you reacted so strongly to me saying Brugges bored me.. it did.. but you needn't take it personally,, you didn't build Brugges did you ?

What did our kids when about 10 years of age enjoy the most while on vacation in Europe? It wasn't the must see grand sights, but rather experiences, some as simple as riding a bicycle down a country lane lined with stone walls or playing in a park with different equipment than at home. So, Nigel's list is great and includes an essential food....chocolate. Also, about anywhere in Europe will be a solid contrast with living in New Jersey, offering fond memories and laying the groundwork for future trips.

Thanks again to everyone who shared ideas and advice. We decided to go with Plan.... I think we are on Plan D now. Lots of discussion over the holiday weekend. We decided to go visit some places none of us have been yet but want to go. We are now planning a mid June trip to Switzerland (have not picked a specific city or area, looking for best place in alps with 10 & 11 year old and an active 70 year old). Then Munich as a base, then Salzburg as a base. I figure renting a car in one country and dropping in another should not be a huge problem. Thoughts on this trip would be much appreciated.

Plan D now.
It is good to see the plan firming up.

Lots of discussion over the holiday weekend.
That's the best way to go forward. That way everybody feels like they own the decision.

mid June trip to Switzerland (have not picked a specific city or area, looking for best place in alps with 10 & 11 year old and an active 70 year old).

How adventuresome or clingy are the two kiddoes? Would you all enjoy scenic train rides, or bombing down a glacier on a zipline or inner tube? Anybody for zorbing, or is it photography and nature walks? Same for the MIL. Kandersteg, Grindelwald, Muerren, Davos, Samaden all have many things in their favour. What would tickle their and your funnybones, and what have you seen on RS videos or other travelogues that looked interesting?

Then Munich as a base, then Salzburg as a base.
Good choices. Again, same questions as above.

I figure renting a car in one country and dropping in another should not be a huge problem.
It is unlikely to be a problem, but it could become quite expensive. Cross border returns generally come with quite a penalty.

Hang on, we were looking at 9 year old and a 10 year old last week. Now it is 10 and 11? Birthdays? Don't kids get big quick?

Thanks Nigel. The 10 year old turned 11 today. The other birthday is in February.

I understand that crossing borders with a rental car and dropping off in another country can be expensive, but being fans of Rick, I am under the impression that a car in southern Germany is a must. If we can do it all by train, we would prefer that.

Just had a thought....
Scenic train rides in Switzerland sound great. We fly to Switzerland, using public transportation and rail until Munich. Rent a car just to tour Bavaria, then back to rail for the trip to Salzburg.

"I am under the impression that a car in southern Germany is a must."

I'll qualify that with a big "it depends". What do you have planned in Bavaria? A rental car can certainly add to the convience (there's two posters who may strenuously disagree with me on that point), but I wouldn't say it's a "must". Feed us some more information and we can help you weigh the pros and cons.

I would say that having a car in Salzburg will enable you to see the surrounding sights a lot faster and better (salt mines, eagles' nest). And there are SOME activities in Southern Germany that might be easier with a car (luge rides, visiting smaller villages near the alps quickly en route somewhere else...) but in general Southern Germany is very well connected by rail and depending on your interests/itinerary a car is certainly not a must.