Family of 5...Germany and east...car or train???

www.bahn.de will also give you cross-border fares if they are "EuropaSpezial" deals. Munich-Prague is one of the connections for which this is available.

Where are you going in Germany and Austria? If you're going to smaller cities there, you may consider renting a car for just that portion.

You won't want a car for Prague, Krakow, and Budapest. There's no place to park, plus many rental companies won't let you take a car from Germany into these countries. I know trains from Germany to Prague are very cheap.

Lee is a guru on the train system. He'll probably post something soon....

Hi Randy-

If you decide to go the car route I can't recommend Bob at www.gemut.com more highly for arranging your car needs for Germany/Austria. His website is also really good and he sells rail passes, so could probably help you out there, too. My husband and I used him (based on recs. from the Rick Steves graffiti wall) to rent a car for two weeks while we were in Germany. I found driving around Germany, for the most part, incredibly easy, enjoyable (the autobahns are awesome!!!), and much faster and flexible than train travel - it was much easier to make stops along the way and visit harder to reach places. We did not venture into the east, but I know you can usually take your German rental car into Austria with no problem.

Good luck!

As long as you pick a date at least 3 days in advance and not too far in advance (90 days?), the Bahn query page should show you some (Dauer-Spezial, Europa-Special) of the discounted fares for that route. If you input a round trip, it will also show you SparPreis discounted fares.

For these "Bahn specials" you can purchase them now, while at home, and print them out on your home printer.

In addition to the discounted fares of the Bahn, which include at least one leg by express train (ICE/IC/EC), there are also regional offers by each Land for about €30 for five people. You probably can't even put fuel in a car for that. Read about them on my webpage. There is also the €37 Schoenes-Wochenende-Ticket for weekend travel by regional train all across Germany and the Quer-durchs-Land-Ticket for regional train travel after 9 AM on workdays, €34 for first traveler, €5 for each additional traveler.

Before thinking about renting a car in Germany, I have spent 16 weeks traveling there, mostly in small towns, all by public transportation, saving about 2/3 in the process. You absolutely don't need a car in Germany. When looking at rental cars, don't look at the cost of a compact. With five people AND their luggage, you will need a much larger, more expensive car.

In Austria, many small towns have regional rail service. An Einfach-Raus ticket would cover your entire family (up to 5) on regional trains all across Austria for only €28 for a day. In addition to rail service, Austria has an extensive network of Post Buses.

In august, I went from Salzburg to Bad Ischl via Mondsee and St. Gilgen, then from Bad Ischl to Hallstatt-Lahn, all by bus. Total cost, one adult, traveling alone, was about €17.

We will be renting a car for the majority of our time in Germany as the time spent there will be mostly small town-ish. We may use the car in Austria as well. But the real question is what to do about the cities to the east. I don't really WANT a car there for all the obvious reasons. But I can't get any feel for train fares. I know there are deeply discounted fares out there at certain times, but how likely is it that they will be available 3 days ahead of time, which sems to be as early as I can buy them on-site? On top of that is the issue of children, which are sometimes free and sometimes not. So there are some legs of the trip that seem (though it's just an uneducated guess at this point) like they may cost about $100 for our family of 5, or maybe $400. There would be several train trips, so I don't want to explode our budget by $1000 because of this.

Hi Randy

Not an easy decision, and as Maureen suggested, Lee will probably be weighing in soon and he is the master of public (train/bus) transportation where you are going. He will have alot of good info (including costs) and one should consider his thoughts.

That being said, I'm from the other side of the tracks (like the a pun?). I don't dislike the public transportation route, but I like the car.

I have traveled both methods and have driven throughout Germany and Austria along with a brief pass-through in the Czech Republic. While I can't address Prague, Krakow and Budapest, I can tell you that driving is a great way to go. We like to stop along the way and have the flexibility to stop whenever we want to. I'm also known to make frequent stops along the road for photos (not always a smart thing to do in Europe, but I can't help it).

I have also found the roads to be in excellent condition. No issues with the language and/or road signs. Most roads are easier to drive on than many US roads.

Yes parking will be a challenge in many areas and true, there will be many days you probably won't use the car, but it's there if you want it. We tend to keep it parked at the hotel and then use the bus/subway to get around town.

All in all, I think it's worth it.

Best of luck

gary

Lee,

I do need a train guru.

I use the Bahn site all the time, but I'm only aware of fare information for trips that are largely Germany/Austria based. That's where we are most likely to use a car. So, while that site helps, and has great scheduling information. It doesn't help nail down costs for the east - unless there is a screen I'm missing somehow.

For the most part, the Bahn website only shows fares for legs of travel with one end in Germany. For example, you can find the day train fare for Munich to Bologna, including a Europa-Spezial Italien fare, but travel by day train to Rome is Munich to Bologna, change trains, and Bologna to Rome. If you ask for Munich to Rome it will not give you a fare because it won't show the Bologna to Rome leg fare.

BTW, this is because German Rail only shows fares for tickets they sell online. You could buy a ticket from Bologna to Rome at a ticket counter in Germany or by phone, but not online.

Strangely, they do sell tickets from Munich to Interlaken Ost, which has a change of trains in Zurich.

Railfan Europe has links to all of the national railroads in Europe. Some of them will only be in the local language, but some will have an English option. If they give fares, they will be in local currencies (most of these countries are not yet on the Euro), but you can convert them on www.oanda.com.

German Rail is one of the few websites that gives fares beyond the border. For instance, if you want the fare from Prague to Vienna, neither the Czech Rail website nor the Austrian Rail website will give it to you. With most of these website you have to get the fare to the last stop within the country and add it to the fare from the first stop in the next country.

Just be aware that getting a good deal on train fare is not guaranteed. Just see my post below with our experience.

Getting a "Dauerspezial" deal for FIVE on a busy train might be more difficult than expected. You won't know until you try to book which can be done up to 3 months ahead of your travel date but not earlier.

We usually travel by car through Europe but seldom spend much time in large cities. On our upcoming vacation we had planned to take the train as ALL destinations are large cities with no need for a car. But prices are so high if you can't get a deal that we may have to reconsider taking a car.

Another thought to consider: when travelling with kids large cities are often more exhausting. You could choose to spend more time e.g. on the shores of the Balaton rather than in Budapest so your kids enjoy their time a bit more. This could be easier done by car than by train.

Munich-Prague

As far as I know the least expensive way for a family like your to get to Prague from Munich is by buying a €33 Bayern-Boehmen-Ticket in Munich. This will take you all the way from Munich to Plzen. On the train, maybe, before you get to Plzen, you can buy Czech Rail tickets from Plzen to Praha for less than €6 per adult, half that for children. The total would be €33 + 2€6 + 3€3 = €54. If you can't buy them from the conductor, you can always get off in Plzen and buy them there. There are frequent trains from Plzen to Praque. There are also more frequent, less expensive buses from Plzen to Prague.

The fastest rail links from Munich to Prague are three 6-hr connections via Furth im Wald leaving Munich at 8:44, 12:44, and 16:43. These connections are entirely by regional trains, so the €29 pP Europa-Spezial fare is not offered, but the €33 Bayern-Boehmen fare is. Europa-Spezial is offered for the slightly faster ICE to Nuernberg, bus to Prague connection. With the Europa-Spezial fare, adult are as low as €29 each, children are free.

Lee,

Thanks for the detail on Munich/Prague, but that was simply a hypothetical trip mentioned in another post. I doubt we would make that specific trip, though I remember I did look it up once on Bahn and was perplexed by the bus connection. Two major cities, not connected by train?!?

I guess what would be helpful to hear is something like "I bought the 29 euro special Budapest to Krakow three days ahead and it was no problem - the train was almost empty!" ...or... "Don't even bother. I tried to get the special two weeks ahead and they were already sold out. I had to pay 65 euro for the same ticket!"

...was perplexed by the bus connection. Two major cities, not connected by train?!?

Au contraire. The two major cities are connected by train. There are three 6-hr connections per day and a lot of slower ones. That train makes 13 stops on the way. It isn't just a train from Munich to Prague. You could go from Landshut to Plzen or from Regensburg to Beroun.

The bus connection, on the other hand, is faster because the high speed ICE only stop in Ingolstadt on the way to Nuernberg, and the express bus goes non-stop from Nuernberg to Prague.

Euraid has offices in both Berlin Hbf and Munich Hbf, where they have German Rail ticket terminals, just like at the German Rail counters. They can write tickets for all over Europe. They will write a bunch of tickets, charge your credit card in Euro, and send them by mail to the U.S. for a one time charge of $50. They can sell promotional tickets, like the Dauer-Spezial-Tickets, that can be purchased at a counter for a "Personal Service" surcharge, but they cannot sell tickets at a discounted price if that price is only available with online purchase.

On the other hand, you can call German Rail direct (49 1805 99 66 33). They will probably have an English speaking operator to help you. They write the tickets and mail them to you for about $5 (€3,50). Alternatively, you can order the tickets by phone at that number and pick them up at the first DB automat you see in Germany. Here's how.

I don't believe you have mentioned how long you plan to travel in Germany & Austria, but if it will be at least 17 days you might want to consider a lease. I did mine through AutoEurope and it couldn't have been easier. We rented a 7 passenger minivan with an automatic transmission. If you get a manual it will be less expensive. When we were in a city we would keep the car parked and not use it. It was still less expensive for us than renting, returning, renting, returning...well, you get what I mean. All the arrangements are made in advance, so when you arrive at whatever airport they will pick you up and transport you to your car. At that point you just sign a paper, pick up the keys to your new car, and away you go. Driving in Germany is very simple. The cost includes everything, including insurance and roadside assistance. They don't nickel and dime you like most rentals do, and you pay in US dollars, not Euros.

I know that travel can be done by train, as I have used trains myself. It might even save you a few bucks. On the other hand, you will have total freedom with a car, and I think that with children it may be worth spending those extra bucks. You would have to check on the website (www.autoeurope.com) to see if they allow their cars into Eastern Europe.

Back to rail travel to Prague. There are a number of EC (Eurocity) trains a day from Berlin to Prague Holesovice station. The €29 Europa-Spezial Tschechien fare is valid on these trains. These fares can be ordered online and printed out on your home printer.

Lee, et al,

Thanks for the responses. We've pretty much established that we will use a car for all of our time in Germany, plus Salzburg (hopping back across the border to return it, before hopping on the train to Vienna, and then using the train (or the occasional bus) for everything east and for our return to Munich for the flight home.

So the specific train days/trips will be as follows (in order);

1) Salzburg to Vienna with a diversion to Melk for a few hours
2) Vienna to Budapest via Bratislava stopover for a few hours
3) Budapest to Krakow on an overnight train - hoping for a 29euro + couchette saver fare, but willing to swallow a regular fare if necessary, I guess.
4) Krakow to Prague on an overnight train - similar situation to above
5) bus to Cesky Kromlov
6) bus to Linz & catch train to Munich

I am aware, in general terms, of how each of these legs will work in terms of timing and (very rough) cost. But any specific information, personal experience, or general impressions will be welcome.

FWIW, I know that this segment of our trip is very urban and that could be exhausting for everyone, especially the children. But we live in a city and are used to it, the children have spent time in even larger cities (London & Paris), and we are pretty good at finding parks & side trips to "catch some air" when necessary.

Okay, so as far as Salzburg stuff with kids, the fortress is a must. As is Hellbrunn, doing the fountain tour. With a 7 year old, I'm assuming he/she still likes playgrounds, Hellbrunn has an awesome one. And there's one in Salzburg by Mirabelle, around the corner from the gardens, just past the bathrooms.

If you'll be in the Salzkammergut region, get on their website and get some brochures. They'll send you all kinds of information.

If you drive on the Autobahn in Austria be sure to get the vignette sticker at the border. You can get them at a gas station or a convenient type store. I can second the recommendation of gemut.com having used them several times. Autoeurope is also highly recommended by most here.

The public transportation systems are just too good in these countries (even with 3 kids in tow) to take on the liability, the safety concerns, and trouble of renting a car. Roads in Eastern Europe were neglected under the Soviets and are just now being repaired and widened.

I guess what would be helpful to hear is something like "I bought the 29 euro special Budapest to Krakow three days ahead and it was no problem - the train was almost empty!" Randy

The €29 fare we have been talking about is the Dauer-Spezial fare for points within Germany. I can tell you that I bought two of them last year, Cochem to Bad Harzburg via Koeln and Hannover, and Walkenried (near Goettingen) to Karlsruhe. I bought them a couple of months ahead (they are such a good deal they sell out in advance) and printed them out on my home printer. There were no problems. The trains were mostly filled but, even though I had reservations, I didn't need them.

I spent about $90 on the two Dauer-Spezial tickets; full fare would have been $217.

For the four major legs of travel, the best 2-week car rental quote I got, plus fuel for those legs, would have come to $674; I spent a total of $141 for rail tickets for those four legs.

For the rest of the trip, local travel with public transportation came to another $100. Fuel for the car would have been nearly as much.

I know nothing about train travel in eastern Europe. You might want a car. What I do know about is travel in Germany. For that you do not need a car, it will probably cost a lot more, and it might be more of a liability, particularly in and around cities.

Lee, thanks for the valiant effort, but Clark, err, Randy, and the gang seem set on the car trip.

Hey, now you rail nazis...

We will spend two weeks using a car, seeing mostly small towns in Bavaria, then we will spend two weeks city-hopping (with a couple of small towns, too) in the east by rail.

That seems like a reasonable plan to me - and it ought to keep both sides of the debate happy, don't you think?

For the four long legs of that 2008 trip, I used 2 $45 Dauer-Spezial-Tickets and 2 Rheinland-Pfalz-Single tickets (€18, $23 with exch rate for ATM cash). Of course, I was traveling single. With a family of five, I would have had to use a full RL-P ticket for €26 ($34). As far as the two Dauer-Spezial legs, I could have just bought 5 tickets for each leg, $450+$68=$518. However, 2 full fare tickets, @$217 each, would have included free travel for the three kids, $502. However, if it had been me, I would have bought a Dauer-Spezial tickets for the first adult ($90), then a ($217) full fare ticket for the second adult, which would have still allowed the kids to ride free. $217+90+68=$375.

That still saves $300. However, as I was traveling alone, the car quoted to me was a "mini/economy", which would be entirely too small for a family of five and their luggage. A car adequate for five people and their luggage would have probably cost more to rent and certainly fuel would have been more.

I don't know if I can easily figure the other days, but since I used RL-P-tickets and VRM Tageskarten for a lot of the travel, I doubt that it would have cost me twice as much as the $100 I spent.

So, I might have spent $375+200=$575 for public transportation, but the car would have cost more, perhaps significantly more that the $674 I figured for one person.

However, that was not his trip. He's talking about traveling around Bavaria. No day long trips across the entire country, like my 2008 trip. No need for Dauer-Spezial-Tickets. Even at today's exchange rate, a family of five can travel all day long for only $42 (a €28 Bayern-Ticket).

I don't quite understand the purpose of the car in Bavaria unless you're staying in hotels or visiting places that aren't centrally located. As long as you can carry your own stuff ala Rick Steves, as you'll apparently be able to in the east if traveling by train, you'll find rail service cheap (Bayern Ticket) and efficient, the rail network dense.

When you figure costs, remember that gas in Germany is $7/gal now. Car expenses will include parking fees, driving vignettes for Austria, and possible driving/parking violations. There's an enhanced potential for fender benders and the occasional serious accident when driving in unfamiliar territory and signage in a different language. Even in countries like Germany, complaints about unscrupulous rental agents are numerous.

I've done Bavaria in both ways and can't imagine using the car again except in extraordinary circumstances.

Here's a map of the Bavarian rail system; it's unlikely that you'll pick destinations that aren't served:

http://www.bayern-takt.de/call_media.php?web_id=219&unit=4af02b54edf9d&mt=./media/PDF-Files/Netzkarten/Gesamtnetz07.pdf

Ok. I originally started this thread because we were going some places where tickets could not be purcheased ahead of time online. I'm a planner. We have young children. There is enough for us to deal with without adding uncertainty to the mix. We are not travel novices. We have done England, Scandinavia and France before. England was all driving, it worked perfectly, and I don't regret it a bit. Scandinavia was all public transportation and worked well, although it was complicated and wound up costing us about $3,500 in ground/water trasportation. France was mostly by car, and I don't regret that a bit.

Our trip this year will be a 50/50 combination. The car part actually starts on Cologne, dips into Belgium and Lux. then onto the Rhine/Mosel river area before heading south along the Romantic Road to Fussen. We will spend a week there daytripping before heading to Salzburg.

Yes, about 80% of our destinations would be served by train. Some conveniently, others not. But some of our destinations will not be, or would be grossly impractical given our time frame. Add to that the occasional joy of getting into a car in a beautiful area of the country and just meandering on country roads.

I hope you can see that this is not a question of CAN you use public transport, as I know it is available to some extent almost everywhere. But using a car is a different STYLE of travel - one that has it's advantages. Also, and this cannot be stressed enough, travelling with children is enormously different than being a carefree young single person or couple who can just shrug off a sudden change in plans and go find a beer hall instead.

Randy, I can certainly understand. Travelling with kids is different in more than one aspect. The form of transportation is one of them.

If a singe/couple gets stuck at a train/bus station waiting for an hour or so they might just sit down and have a beer or read a book. But young kids will make this hour feel like the longest of your life .... This can easily happen if you travel through rural Bavaria where the service is less frequent. Just have one kid go on a "quick" trip to the bathroom and your schedule might be off.

And if you're travelling within a city taking the occasional cab with FIVE is not that easy or cheap either.

Calculations of costs are different as well. Dauerspezials are great deals for singles/couples but for families they end up costing pretty much the same as regular fare (because kids have to pay their Dauerspezial but are free on regular fare) making the cost of a car more competetive. You can mix it up like Lee suggested to save on the fares but I tell you I'm getting a headache from trying to calculate costs for our famiy's train rides - and I speak German and can read the fine print on the Bahn website that's not available on the Engish version.

That said, there are of course occasions where the train will make more sense for a family as well. But it's not that clear-cut.

Randy, for the reasons you mentioned I think you have a sound plan. Dividing the transportation between car and train for those areas should work fine. Stopping at a grocery store for food supplies and finding scenic spots for picnics during your drive would be nice and the kids would enjoy that plus it allows for some great and memorable photo ops.

Randy, you have a fine plan. Please let us know how things turn out.