Ex-wife willn ot sign passport doc or guardianship form

I'm not a family attorney, but as an attorney I feel that I have to suggest that you do not try to skirt the legalities in place. It could seriously jeopardize your husband's custody situation and worst of all, put an innocent teenager in the middle. He's 16 and old enough to make some of his own decisions. Is there any way he could go to his mother and explain that he really wants to go on this trip? I would hope that a good mother wouldn't deny her son the fantastic learning and cultural opportunity to travel abroad with his family, and if it comes from him, just asking his mom to please sign the documents, she might be more cooperative than coming from her ex-husband or his wife. If this more diplomatic approach proves unsuccessful, I think you really do need to seek an attorney. I understand that the cost is expensive, but it's far far far less than what the cost would be if you try to circumvent it and get caught. Every state law is different and your husband's specific divorce/custody decree is almost surely even more specific. I just don't think it's worth the risk, but you and your husband will have to ultimately make that decision.

Forgive me, but I do not think that this board is the right place for this discussion. I am beginning to feel quite voyeuristic. Surely the advice the OP needs can be had from more reliable & informed sources than a travel forum.

There is a typo in my post. My step-son will be almost 16 years old at the time of the trip. I apologize for the confusion.

Actually, it is only "right to refuse" if there is compelling evidence that by allowing her son to leave the country. The ironic issue in this is that she tried to move out of the country a couple of years ago with my step-son and my husband signed a passport document for her at the advice of the attorney with the attached statement, "signatue provided for passport application only. Signature does not permit X to move out of jurisdiction with son." (or something to that effect. The attorney advised him to sign it since it would be greatly frowned upon in court for not signing it. She is holding these documents "hostage" becuase she is a control freak and is upset about other things that are in the decree. The problem is - this is using the son as a pawn and that is very sad. I'm sure legal action would resolve this since this is JUST a vacation and there is no flight risk - my point to the post ws for advice on how to avoid that additional cost to get this accomplished. Oh, and BTW - she has already stated that she plans to make a trip out of the country at Christmas and will need my husband's cooperation. See, my husband doesn't believe in "pay back" and is the type to sign for her becuase it is his SON who would be missing out and for the general sake of doing what is right. Not necessarily and eye for an eye, if you know what I mean.

I don't think any of us on this board is qualified to provide the kind of legal advice you need, so if you really want to take your stepson out of the country, you may have to bite the bullet and consult an attorney.

At 16, he is still a minor and assuming his mother has at least joint custody, she gets to make the decisions. If the situation were reversed, would you be happy if she could "go around" your husband to take the son out of the country without his permission?

I would tell your stepson that unfortunately his mother won't sign the papers to let him go on this trip, but that once he's 18 and a legal adult, you can plan another trip together and his mother won't have any say in the matter.

Thank you all for your input. Please do not misunderstand my intentions. At no point did I mean to imply I was going to circumvent the system. I would never dream of doing anything illegal. I was just searching for advice from someone who may be experienced in this area. One can only hope that the mother will come around and realize that her control issues are only hurting her son. Thank you all for your advice. Have a nice day.

CJ,, I did not sense or read anything in your post that seemed crooked, I have no idea where some of these other posters are getting that,, perhaps some of their own issues??

I also see nothing wrong with trying to get ideas, I do think boy is more then old enough to approach mother RESPECTFULLY and try and make her understand that her choices are hurting him as much as you. Some exes are very controlling and spiteful,, but hopefully she won't deny her child an experience just to upset you,, but I have met women like her,, and they would.

I think I would go to a lawyer if you cannot reason around this problem.

There is no one dumb enough to believe you are kidnapping a 16 yr old,, its not like a 6 yr old that could be fooled and not know how to get back to one parent if seperated and lied to.. your son is quite old enough to stand up for himself. I believe the mother is just being a brat ,, she does not fear kidnapping I am sure.

Good luck.

Pat, with regard to your second paragraph, I think the post was a misuse of a travel board, and far too personal in content. While I think I understand her dilemma, it is a very personal matter, with one side of the story only, so who are we to advise? Sounds like a job for "super-mediator" to me.

CJ,

I don't believe this is a "misuse of a travel board" as others have suggested. As I read your Post, you were simply asking for information from others who may have encountered the same situation when travelling.

I can't offer any advice on the divorce laws in the U.S., but do have personal experience with the situation in Canada. I believe the laws are very similar.

It's a bit difficult to be specific, as none of us here know the details of the custody arrangement that your husband and his ex-wife have negotiated. I've always felt it was despicable to use children as "pawns" in a divorce situation, so hopefully that situation will improve. What is the "age of majority" in your state? From a psychological point-of-view, I have to wonder what goal the ex-Wife hopes to accomplish in this case, as her actions are primarily punitive towards her Son?

In the same situation, there are two avenues I would consider:

(1.) Have your husband and/or his Son (perhaps together) appeal to the ex-Wife and ask if she will allow the Son to take what will no doubt be an incredible life experience for a 16-year old. Perhaps her sense of fairness will override her need to be a "control freak"?

(2.) The "last resort" will be the legal approach. Speak to your Lawyer to find out what measures may be best under the circumstances. I have a hard time believing that any Judge would deny this application, as they usually primarily consider the "best interests of the minor child". Given that this will be such an incredible trip for your step Son, I'd pay the Lawyer to get this resolved (but of course, we also don't know the details of your financial situation).

I'm not a Lawyer, so can only offer my opinion on the way I would handle this situation.

Good luck!

I don't have the exact same situation- my ex-husband signed/had notarized the passport permission and agreed to do the same with letters I made for him giving permission to take the kids out of the country. However, even though I gave them to him three months in advance (and gave him more copies when he lost those), he dragged his feet so long, that I came very close to cancelling my older two kids' tickets (he got me the letters on Saturday and we left on Tuesday- oh, and he made me pay him the notary fee, too.)

Here are your choices: lawyer or a rational discussion with everyone involved and then let the chips fall where they do and be willing to accept it. I told my ex and the kids that if I didn't have those letters, I would cancel the kids tickets (would have lost a couple hundred each) and leave them with him. I didn't want to do that, but I was prepared to if my back was against the wall.

Thats a tough situation for Everyone involved. As a mom, I know I would have issues with an Ex and his wife taking my child away, no matter who had custodial rights.

As a step-mom I understand your wanting to include him as he is your family now.

If you can't convince her to sign the documents, is there any way you can convince her to come along too?

Its just a suggestion, and I know it may sound crazy, but cruise ships are Huge and you wouldn't necessarily have to see much of her.

I started traveling overseas with my daughter when she was 15 years old. I always had a note from my former husband allowing her to travel outside the country. HOWEVER, I was NEVER asked for this note and never showed it to anyone. I don't think anyone would ask you because clearly a sixteen year old showing his/her own passport, etc. is not being kidnapped. Forget the X and go for it.

Wray, the problem with your suggestion is that in this case the ex did not give permission. You think she wouldn't report them if they tried to go behind her back? And to get a passport you must have the permission of the other parent, anyway. Even if the other parent is deceased you have to provide proof of that when applying for a child's passport.

Sylvia's suggestion of bringing along the the ex-wife/mother of the 16 year old really made me smile, as I try to imagine who will pay for this cruise fare, and how much fun it will be to be always trying to avoid this hostile person at the breakfast buffet and elsewhere on board. It would be less expensive to just pay the darn lawyer the $500. Not to mention a lot more fun.

Nancy, I never had to obtain my X's permission to get my daughter a passport, so it must be a very new rule. Obviously, if there is no passport it would be a no go. Otherwise, it's up to CJ to decide how to proceed, whether the x wife would be silly enough to prevent her son from going on a harmless cruise. It's rather irrelevent as I reread the posts and, frankly, I think the tone of some of the opinions sent CJ away, if I read his last post correctly.

Norma, that made me smile too. I don't think there is a ship in any cruise line that would be big enough!

Wray, yes it is a fairly new rule. I even know someone who was artificially inseminated (and therefore had no other parent to sign) and she had to get some kind of statement to explain the situation before she could get her son's passport. And I think CJ is the stepmother, not a "he".

Though I can't confirm it I believe this law was put into place because of children being born to parents of different national origin. If or when they broke up there were situations where the foriegn born parent would flee the country with the child making it almost impossible to find them much less see them. There have even been cases where a American born parent fled with their child to keep him or her away from their other parent. Sad but true. though in this case I don't see it, I only see a sad case of control issues, using the child as the pawn.

Tell your step-son that he can't go because his mom won't sign the quardianship papers to allow him to go.

Let him work on her.

If he can't get her to sign, then he can't go.

I don't think it's mean to tell him his mother won't let him go, if it's the truth.

Again, thank you all for your words of advice and time in sending a response. I didn't realize that so many people would post a response and have such strong opinions. I have to say, the advice of bringing the mom did not make me smile - it made me almost fall out of my chair laughing. If you didn't gather from my posts - she is a spiteful, hostile woman that makes it her life goal to try and make us miserable. You are right - there is no boat big enough for all of us. One of the most practical posts is this last one to where we put the responsibility where it lies - on the mom. The good news is that her desire to give her son anything and everything he ever wants will probably override her desire to try to continue withholding signature for the passport and guardianship form. It is my opinion that is what we do - let the son work on her and if she still says no - let her have to deal with him on it. I do not feel that we should invest what would probably be in excess of 1000 dollars in legal fees to "force" her to sign these. The cruise is already expensive enough for the five of us and another $1000 would seriously cut into any spending $ we have for the vacation. The only problem with this approach is the mother is so manipulative and has such a strong influence on the step-son that she could probably have him believe that it's his father's fault that she is not signing the form. But anyway, as a beliveer in God and his power, I have to turn this over to him to handle. He is all-knowing and in complete control. If he doesn't get to go we will miss him being there, but it wasn't becuase we didn't try!!! Thank you all again for your advice, encouragement, and a few laughs. God Bless you all and have a GREAT day!!!

Kim in Iowa City: A Baby? At age 16? Did I miss something? Although the "Baby's" mother has the right to restrict the child life, at one point in the not too distant future, he will become an adult and might ask her why she didn't allow him to expand his world with his very own father. I hope she has a good answer for him.

Norma and Barry, some people actually do get along with the X's. Okay, they may be weird, but it does happen. Anyway, think about it, on a cruise, the open water, miles from anywhere ............Woman Overboard !!

I am JUST KIDDING.

Actually, my ex-husband I get get along pretty well for the most part. I sent him the forms to sign for our daughter and he went and had them notarized and brought them to me at my house. He even sits with us at church normally on Sunday's. HOWEVER, I would not want him going on a cruise with me!!!! So, it's not a get along issue or not - going on a cruise with him would far surpass the definition of "getting along."

All I can say is Im happy im married almost 50 years to the same wonderful woman.Lots less problems.

That is fantastic - congratulations! That is surely something to be proud of.

I will probably be jumped on for saying this but we are both in education and have to deal with the results of these altercations and the impact on the children. I think CJ's postings reveal more about CJ wanting to control the situation than solving problems. For CJ to say ......"It is my opinion that is what we do - let the son work on her and if she still says no - let her have to deal with him on it....." is a repugnant statement. It is childish, immaturity, and very hurtful. It is an ADULTS problem to be solved by ADULTS and not by a 16 year old child. If she will not sign the passport application, change the trip to something in the US. How can you possibility put that responsibility on the back of a 16 year old? The child has enough problems dealing with obviously immature parents. Don't join them in the sandbox. Solve the problem yourself. And it probably would be best if you put some distance from your husband and the ex. It is THEIR problems.

Is there any way you can postpone the trip until after his 16th birthday? That way she doesn't have to sign the passport documents.

Kathleen, that doesn't work. He has to be 18.

Seems like the wording on passports for minors 16 & 17 years old that they do not require both parent's consent.

Hello all -Sunday morning and I am continuing to get messages related to my post regarding the ex unwilling to sign the passport document. First, let me clarify the current law - as a 16 year old (which will not be until the Fall) - we would not have to have her signature. That would seem to resolve the issue EXCEPT that there still must be a Guardianship Form signed by the other parent (if they are not deceased) when taking a child under the age of 18 out of the country. So, with him turning 16 it does not resolve the necessisity to have her signature for out of country travel. When my husband called her on the phone to inform her of our plans and what he needed from her she made a statement regarding she was going to wait until x month to get him a passport so they can go out of the country for Christmas. I have assume she stated x month because that is when his 16th birthday is and she wouldn't be required to get my husband's signature. With the guardianship form that is required to be signed by my husband for the trip the passport will do her noo good. I have no doubt that she would keep the trip secret and try to "slip" through without the signed guardianship form. It might even work, but that is not the point. My husband would have not problem signing it and cooperating, but the fact that she is such a controling person she would rather risk getting caught that ask my husband to sign the document. That is how deep her issues are
!See, the issue is not about her being concerned about the travel and anything related to it - she is trying to "bully" my husband into things unrelated to the trip and basically holding the signature "hostage" for lack of a better term. As for the post regarding the couple that is in education, I will not "jump" on you for your comment. In fact, this is classical "textbook" approach to stepfamilies and dealing with ex's. HOWEVER...continued in next post.

After dealing with this for more than 8 years, attending numerous Step-family survial conferences, hundres of hours of reseach, and reading/owning a libarary of approximately 30 books on the topic the fact is that anytime you have one party that is unwililng to cooperate no matter what you have to go into "survival mode." And as far as just leaving it to my husband and his ex to work it out you obviously haven't read all my posts...there is not working it out. At no point did I ever say we were going to put the step son up to badgering her to sign. However, to simply tell a 15 year old that he can't go on a cruise with us becuase he mother is unwilling to sign a document is enough to disappoint a child into discussing this with his mother and asking questions why. the natural sequence of events that are neither planned or provoked will happen DUE TO AVOIDIN ALTERCATION. They've already spoken on the phone and the fact she is holding the signature hostage and there really is nothing else to discuss. The "other" requests she is making are not fair and not in the child's best interest. So, my husband is not going to allow her to "bully" him. And if you think that 8 years of constant turmoil between my husband and my ex is none of my business and what that does to our household is to just be left "alone" then I seriously question your marriage and education credentials. While it is unfortunate that this situation exists - it is what it is. My husband is great man, great husband, and great father. His ex is one that give ex's a BAD NAME and constantly uses her child as a pawn. So, as I said before, the natural sequence of events in light of what God's will is will unfold and the results will be what God wants. If that is CONTROL I can only hope that the ex will "catch" a little bit of that type also. If you are an educator and deal with children on a daily basis, may I reccomend "Joint Custody with a Jerk" - it is the most REALISTIC way to deal with unreasonable ex's.

CJ,

After a period of eight years of dealing with this acrimonious situation, I can appreciate the level of frustration (and probably anger) that you must be feeling. Hopefully there have been some improvements since the initial separation between your husband and the ex-wife?

After making my last post, it occurred to me that one other avenue you might pursue before initiating full-blown legal proceedings is arbitration. Would it be possible to arrange for a mediator (possibly a Lawyer who is not already representing either your husband or the ex) to sit down with your husband and his ex, to hopefully resolve this impasse? At least during the initial session, it might be better for you to "sit on the sidelines"? This would probably be less costly than legal action, but there's no guarantee of success so you may have to eventually use the legal approach as well.

If legal action is eventually necessary, having the persepective of a third party may provide the Judge with a more comprehensive view of the situation, hopefully in your favour. As I mentioned before, the "best interests of the minor child" are usually the primary concern in rulings. Judges are normally quite perceptive in "seeing through" the biased stories of the parties.

Just to reiterate, I'm not a Lawyer but have gone through this process myself (fortunately my situation was quite amicable) and have seen this with several friends and colleagues as well (some who have had problems similar to yours).

Hopefully you can get this resolved soon, so that you can finalize your travel plans. It will be a wonderful holiday for all of you if you can get this sorted!

Good luck!!!

CJ....in light of your last post in reaction to all the suggestions offered (and you did ask)....I think it's probably best you withdraw this from the travel forum and seek legal advice.

Which is what I suggested many posts ago.

In response to legal arbitration - my husband and his ex have been back to court 4 times since the divorce and went through a third party guardian ad lidem for "mediation" twice. Although changes to the parenting plan/decree have come with each legal/arbitration his ex still feels she is not suseptible to the decree/parenting plan - she always wants more and uses her son as a pawn to get it. Yes, it is extremly frustrating after over 25K in legal fees and years and years of conflict that nothing has gotten better. It does cause a strain on your marriage and thank God my husband and I have been able to make it this far. The only difference is that my husband has stopped doing things for the sake of "peace" when that peace never comes and what ultimately only seems to have made things worse. My husband is a compasionate, caring, reasonable man who refuses to fight dirty or play games, but his ex seems to be a master at this. He really is at a disadvantage. Thank for the suggestion, however, we've already checked this one off the list :-). Actually, we've tried just about everything I know and what books say. The post started as advice/information from anyone specifically regarding the guardianship form/passport applicaton and any ideas when the ex is unwilling to sign. This post was never meant to go into great detail the other issues/problems we deal with relating to the topic, but I felt the need to explain why some ideas/suggestions were not practical (ex coming along on cruise and just staying out it and letting my husband deal with this alone). Thank you all for the ideas/suggestions. May you all have a peaceful, joyful day. That is what I intend to do. This is part of survival that I mentioned previously. Someone is going to get hurt through this if the ex doesn't come around and I can only hope and pray she does come around soon for her son's sake. Anyone who is willing to pray for the same - we can use all the extra prayers we can get.

CJ,

I don't recall if you mentioned this previously, but when your trip is supposed to take place? Hopefully you'll have enough time to work this out.

The legal approach will be a big financial burden on the ex-wife as well, so she may want to avoid that?

Good luck!

While I don't think a child should be put in the middle of adult disputes, I think having him discuss this calmly with his mother is the best solution. Not to confront or force her to allow permission, but to discuss it. Isn't this what we would advise if the OP was the teenager, and wanted to go on a trip with grandparents or a friend's family? What concerns does the mother have, and how can we resolve this? She may be a total witch, but what would she do if her son looked her in the eye and rationally discussed the situation?

A teen this age should be encouraged to interact with adults about his schoolwork, driver's training, a new cell phone plan, allowance, etc. Maybe get him a little coaching from a knowlegeable but uninvolved aunt or uncle.

Wow! Sorry I'm getting into this discuss after it is over, but I'm going through almost this exact situation with my ex. My girlfriend and I want to take my 13 year old son on a cruise in June. I will room with him but during the day he will do things with another 13 year old also on the cruise. When I first contacted my ex about this she said it would be "A great opportunity and very educational." So, I asked him about it and he was very excited. A few days later (actually today) when I approached her about signing the passport application, she suddenly decided he was "too immature to go on a cruise". Obviously, we were disappointed. I'm gonna try to reason with her but I almost no hope that will work. Of course, this will further damage her already strained relationship with our son. Knowing her, I believe she originally thought it was OK, then became convinced otherwise when she talked with her "friend(s)" who have some strange ideas about child-rearing and discipline (long-story). Anyway, I like the arbitration option. We also don't have a lot of money to spend on a lawyer. I've had to do that in the past when she tried to illegally limit my visitation rights, so I have to make a stand or she'll keep doing this.

Thanks, and God bless you CJ for starting this dialogue. And for all (well almost all, lol) of the posts. This has helped me alot.

I haven't read all the posts concerning this thread, but in the event somebody hasn't yet mentioned it I wanted to ensure that everybody knows Wales is the best country in the the world.

I am a little surprised to see this type of a question on a travel site. This is a legal situation and a family matter that no one can solve except the people involved. I do agree that you should not put the problem on the back of a 16 year old. He isn't a pawn in a game. Seek legal advice and do what they tell you to do.

CJ , I hope it works out. Some exes are vindictive and difficult to work with, no matter how hard you try.
At 16 the boy should not be kept in the dark,, why do some people assume a 16 yr is an infant, he drives, he can work, and in 2 yrs he can enlist,live on his own, or get married(hopefully not, LOL ) . I do NOT advocate trying to talk against his mom,,. BUT he should be told that he is not able to come on trip because of MOM, not because the dad and step mom don't want him to..

PS No one ever asked us for any special documents when we travel seperately with out teens, I don't think any customs agent figures a parent is "kidnapping" a 14 or 18 yr old, even this past summer I went to Europe alone with my 12 yr old, no one ever asked where hubby was or if I had permission to travel .I think this is also partly due to fact I was travelling to countries that may enoforce custody agreements, not places like Iraq or Lebonnon,

I do feel bad for you, your husband, and your stepson. Nontheless, it is her decision to make and parents make terrible decisions for their kids all the time. That's what flawed individuals do. At the risk of overstepping my bounds, I respectfully suggest you accept that and let it go.

Have you considered a trip to Disney World,(which a 16 year old would probably like better), a camping trip to Yellowstone/Grand Tetons, a guided fishing trip to Alaska, a family dude ranch in Wyoming, surfing lessons on the North Shore? I bet the thrill of that will outlast memories of the midnight buffet and ice sculpture.

It's your life, but I couldn't help but think these options may be more fun and more dignified than lawyers, power struggles,& escalating hostilities. It also keeps you from putting your stepson in the position of pressuring his mother. ( A classy move on your part! Wouldn't that feel good?) At this point the cruise is poisoned anyway. If you "win" it would be even uglier. Is it worth it? Consider taking control of the situation by changing gears instead of pushing back. Jijitsu parenting. Yikes. I feel like a wanna-be advice columnist! Best wishes to you and your family.

After reading all these posts I am surprised by many of them. I am going through the very same issue as we post. The good news is, the two parent consent child passport law was passed to reduce the amount of child abductions from the US. It was not intended to give one parent control over the other's visitation. You do not need Sole custody to apply for a childs passport without the other parents signature. You only need a court order to travel outside the US with the children. See the State.gov website.
It is a sad thing to see a mother refuse to let a 16 year old go on an exciting cruise with his father and not in the child's best interest. Forget the lawyer, just go file a petition in court and ask the judge for help. A father has a right to create memories with his children as much as the mother does.

Wow. I am surprised by those who say it is the mother's right to refuse. It clearly is not. My ex tried to stop my son from going on a cruise with us. I got an attorney and asked the court to compel her to sign the passport documents. The judge made us settle this out of court but once her attorney advised her she wasn't gonna win, she caved. It did cost exactly $500 and I really couldn't afford it. But, I had to make a stand. She also had to spend money for an attorney. I wasn't gonna let her interfere with my vacation time with my son in the future. She'll think twice before she tries to pull that again.

Jim, could be some bitter exes on this forum too, LOL

Good for you for standing up for yourself.

It is different if a mother really believes her ex may kidnap child and go to a country where no law can help her,,( in which case I totally understand a mom saying hell no, ) but most of these issues are just vindictive and spiteful.

Glad you son got to vacation with you.

We had a similar situation last year. It will depend who has legal custody of the child. Since my husband has custody he did not have to submit his ex's signature nor consent but had to send in the court document stating he is the custodial parent. If your husband is not the custodial parent then like everyone else states, consult an attorney. It may not be worth the hassle. I can empathize with your situation and it is totally frustrating. We also went on a cruise with my stepson and they didn't require another parents signature just my husbands.

It sounds like the dialogue should be between CJ's husband and the ex-wife. If the ex-wife won't sign, then the son will need to stay home this time. Although it would be disappointing, it will not be the end of the world and is not enough to cause further bad will between everyone. A cruise is not a requirement. A son seeing appropriate behavior by adults - priceless.