Eurorail worth it? Does is save money?

I think it's frequently true--and maybe even usually true--that a first-class pass costs more than 2nd-class ptp. The only way to know for sure is to price out ptp and compare.

(This comparison is rendered much simpler thanks to the separation of fees and supplements from the pass price that your friends objected too. Since those fees apply equally to passes and tickets, you can ignore them for cost-comparison purposes)

But "worth it" is not necessarily the same thing as "saves money." Some people (not me) really value first-class accommodations, and I would not say they are wrong (for them). A pass also affords ease, flexibility, and spontaneity, and what price that?

So even if a pass is (say) $100 more that ptp tickets, if someone finds that worthwhile, they are not necessarily wrong.

By the way, my experience is that some 2nd-class country passes, such as France's can be a good value compared to regular ptp. (I doubt anything is cheaper than discounted (and restricted) PREMS tickets, though, if they suit you and if you can get them.)

I think if you search down through all of the various postings about rail travel you will find that lots and lots of people speak to this.

I think this is a case where you can probably save money if you do your homework, or buy the pass, probably spend too much, but know what you are going to spend. Don't use RailEurope (or any other stateside ticket seller's) prices. Go directly to the national rail companies' websites (www.bahn.de, www.sncf.fr, etc) for p-p prices. Look on the railpass section of this website for extra fees (reservations). Compare them side by side on a spreadsheet; I do this before every trip and have saved a lot of money with p-p vs. a railpass, but every case is different.

ICEs never require a passholder supplement (like Thalys does) and only a very few require a reservation. You can get tickets with €2 reservations, or reservations alone for €4, from the Bahn website. Also, on the Bahn site, look for non-refundable discount ("Saver") tickets, within Germany and for train connections with one end in Germany and no changes (usually) outside of Germany. These tickets require a commitment to a specific date and a specific train, but can save you significant money.

"Since those fees apply equally to passes and tickets, you can ignore them for cost-comparison purposes)"

If you are saying what I think you are saying, it's wrong. Except for a nominal seat reservation fee, which is sometimes already built into the ticket price, tickets are all inclusive, no extra fees. However, there are often additional fees to use you railpass, particularly on "premium" trains.

Look here to see a long list of the passholder fees that are added for railpass holders, but not to point-point tickets.

On German Rail, if you purchase a p-p ticket, a reservations at the time of purchase, either in Germany or online from the U.S., is €2 per seat. A reservation, alone as in with a railpass, will cost you twice as much, €4.

A Thalys ticket is all inclusive, but with a railpass there is an extra "passhoder fee" of $50 in 2nd class, just to use the train with your railpass.

In Italy, the passholder fee for Italian Eurostar trains is often half of the price of a point-point ticket, alone.

Another thing to consider is that railpass holder do not get a real high priority with the railroads. Often passholder "reservations" are limited in number, so on a busy day you might not get to ride, even though there are plenty of places available to full fare ticket holders.

In Germany, you can often get non-refundable Dauer-Spezial fares for as low as €29 (on other than the most popular lines) and save an additional €2 for seat reservations. With the Dauer-Spezial, it is possible, at the time of order, to build in stopovers, even for a day or more, so you could actually get two days of travel of €29.

There is a handy calculator at: http://www.railsaver.com/railsaver.asp that will let you enter your itinerary and it will tell you which railpass is best and if it would be better to but point to point tickets.

Personally, I would avoid the railsaver calculator since it fails to take into account A) the deep discount p2p tickets on the national rail websites and B) the reservation/supplemental fees required from passholders on many train. Like the others, I've yet to find that a railpass is a benefit, at least financially.

How good is RailSaver? Not very!

In November I spent 13 nights in Germany. I landed at FRA, went by train to Treis-Karden (Mosel), 4 nights later I traveled to Braunlage, in the Harz Mountains. After 5 nights I went to Bad Herrenalb, outside of Karlsruhe, then, after 3 nights I went to Mainz for my last night before flying home from FRA. So, I had four days of travel: FRA to Treis-Kaden, Cochem to Bad Harzburg (bus from there to Braunlage not included), Walkenried to Karlsruhe (bus from Braunlage and streetcar to Bad Herrenalb not included), and Karsruhe to Mainz.

I tried to input this into RailSaver. It did not recognize Treis-Karden or Braunlage. I had to substitute Cochem and Goslar. For this route, it recommended I get a 2nd class German Rail pass for $277. I did the actual trip using 2 Rheinland-Pfalz-Tickets and 2 Dauer-Spezial tickets for $145. So I spent $132 less than the way it recommended.

Oh yes, I made reservations for all three trains (IC to Köln, ICE to Hannover, IC to Karlsruhe) for an additional €4. It turned out none were needed. However, reservations over there, on top of a railpass would have cost me at least €8.

Thank you for all the replies. I am learning a lot! I was a little naive as to the rail passes, I knew enough that they weren't just a Disneyland type pass that gets you onto every ride. But I see now that the cost of one can almost seem negligible to ptp. I realize it depends and I will have to carefully scrutinize this.

In my opinion, if a railpass pays, you are spending too much time on the train.

Lee, can you be more specific? The list of possible supplements you link to is lengthy, but most if not all apply to ticket holders too, jut just pass holders.

It is not, as you say, a list of fees "added for railpass holders, but not to point-point tickets." Ticket holders most certainly do pay supplements for couchettes, TGV reservations, etc.

But I think you make a good point about the Thalys fees, which are (as I understand it) hidden in the ticket price for those trips. That would complicate a simple comparison of ptp vs. pass. Do you know of any other fees like that?

To start with, Italian Eurostar trains sell a ticket, which includes the reservation fee, from Rome to Venice, for €45,90. Even with a railpass, you pay €15-€20 additional. They call it a reservation, but it is in truth a "surcharge", over and above the railpass, for using a premium train, and comes with a required seat reservation.

In Germany, seat reservations are rarely required, but if you get one, it costs €2 at the time of purchase with a point to point ticket. Buying it separate from the tickets, or with a railpass, costs €4. Those are the prices of reservations purchased in Germany. If you buy them from RailEurope before going over, reservations are $11 each.

In Germany, for advanced booking, the non-refundable Dauer-Spezial ticket, with a reservation, can be as low as €31, from anywhere in Germany, to anywhere. That's only €27 ($35) more than the reservation cost alone with a German rail Twin railpass. If you have buy at least 8 days to get $35/day with a railpass.

As for night trains, they sell accommodations only (reservations, called an Aufpreis, in German) for people with an existing ticket (such as for one direction of a Sparpreis ticket) or for people with a railpass. They also sell Normalpreis tickets, which include both the rail part and the accommmodation, together. These cost more than the Aufpreis alone.

An example: in a deluxe double compartment on the train from Berlin to Munich, the Normalpreis ticket (rail plus reservation) would be €222 with NO additional fees, but you could get the same thing online with advance purchase (Dauer-Spezial) for €109. You could wait until you get to Europe and try to buy your reservation (Aufpreis) for €60, €162 less than the Normalpreis, but it would likely be sold out, or you could buy it here, from RailEurope, for $95 (€73) plus S&H, less than €36 less than Dauer fare.