Deutsche Bahn VISA dispute

Where did you see this? I would like to read more. We have several 4147 cards and they are all Bank of America. So maybe the dispute is with this one bank?

We were in the Munich station 2 days ago and were told our cards would not be accepted as soon as the agent saw the first 4 digits, 4147. Luckily, we had enough cash. One of our cards was Bank of America and the other was Capital One, both starting with 4147. Our Citibank card would be acceptable, but it charges a 3% exchange fee.

Yes, it would be nice to see something official on this.

To see who issued the credit cards, you need to look at the first 6 numbers at least these days. 4147 used to belong to a single bank, but with various mergers and acquisitions over the years this prefix is fractured among several. Chase issues a lot with this prefix, Bank of America has a few (including the Alaska Air one). as do Citi and Wells and USBank. I don't know why DB would just blanket ban these cards. Sounds like "the man at Travelers Aide" possibly had issues with some cards with that prefix earlier and was looking for a believable reason to give you as to why he didn't want to try your card. .

To see who issued various cards this link is helpful and accurate in most cases: http://www.stevemorse.org/ssn/List_of_Bank_Identification_Numbers.html

I can find nothing on the DB website. It says "We accept the following credit cards: VISA, MasterCard, American Express, JCB and Diners Club". See: https://www.bahn.com/i/view/GBR/en/prices/onlineticket/payment_by_credit_card.shtml

I managed to find the following list on the internet:

414711 - Citibank (American Airlines) Visa Signature Credit Card
414716 - Bank of America (US) - Alaska Airlines Signature Visa Credit Card
414718 - Wells Fargo Bank 1-800-228-1122
414720 - Chase (US, formerly Bank One) - Chase Sapphire or Holiday Inn Priority Club Rewards Visa Credit Card
414740 - Chase - Amazon.com Rewards Card Visa Signature Credit Card
414746 3 - Citibank (SG) - PremierMiles Visa Signature Credit Card
414746 4 - Citibank (SG) - Dividend Visa Signature Credit Card
414780 8 - US Bank

I hypothesize that it has to do with the rewards level of these cards which therefor charge the merchant higher transaction fees to cover the cost. Especially in Europe, they are sensitive to excessive card fees.

I tried to use my credit cards online while at home to purchase DB passes. The credit cards were both denied and I had to pay via PayPal. I did call my bank and was told that no purchase or attempted purchase had come through to them. I do believe the man at Travelers Aide was correct in saying there is a dispute regarding the terms for credit card purchases. I put this on the forum just to help people be prepared, not to start a debate.

There's a recent discussion on Flyertalk about rejected CC's with the 4147 thing mentioned:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chase-ultimate-rewards/1802042-csp-stops-working-deutsche-bahn.html

Scroll down to post #5 and below.
Nothing I can find on the DB website, though.

We are always looking for something to debate. :-)

I do appreciate the notice. Just seems there would be some sort of official note on the DB website or some news story with the details somewhere if it was just this one prefix that would be denied. And these specific cards are the "Signature" variety of which many offer miles or points or cash back and therefore have the highest merchant fees. I don't blame DB for not wanting to have to pay the higher fees when Paypal or cash is more affordable to them.

I'm not surprised that DB's web site doesn't have this info. US travelers are a tiny sliver of their market. As well, their finance department and web designers may not be in constant contact, or have other things on their to-do lists. If you talked with Alan at Euraide at window 1 in Munich, he's well informed but also unlikely to try to predict any resolution that's not actually finalized.

P.S. Thanks for the info.

The 4147 is the disignation of all "Visa Signature" cards. If they are only rejecting these cards then you should be able to use other Visa cards as well as Mastercard or AmEx in addition to cash or PayPal.

We were in the Munich station 2 days ago and were told our cards would
not be accepted as soon as the agent saw the first 4 digits, 4147.
Luckily, we had enough cash. One of our cards was Bank of America and
the other was Capital One, both starting with 4147. Our Citibank card
would be acceptable, but it charges a 3% exchange fee.

How many of those 4147 cards have no foreign fees?

1. I think it is card companies that have no foreign fees not doing business with the Bahn, not the Bahn rejecting those cards.

2. I expect these card companies to either stop accepting foreign card transactions everywhere in the EU (not just the Bahn) or to start charging fees for foreign credit card use. The European Union recently passed a law limiting the interchange fee, the fee the banks can charge the merchant, to 0.3%. Since the banks with a foreign currency operation pay the "Network" about 1/2% (± 1/10%) to handle the transaction in Europe, they would lose money on every transaction. When the banks could charge a 4% interchange fee, like they do in the United States, they were happy to charge you no foreign fees to get you to use it in Europe and get the 4% from the merchant.

Lee,

Why would DB be any different than any other business in Europe from the view of the card issuers? The 4147 cards have worked for me everywhere I wanted to use them in Europe as recently as this November. If the issuers were upset about not getting their interchange from European merchants due to the recent restrictions, wouldn't they have blocked use at EVERY European merchant?

The Visa Europe web site states that the limitation on interchange to 0.3% is valid only on transactions where the card issuer and merchant both are within the EEA (European Economic Area). https://www.visaeurope.com/about-us/interchange/fees-and-interchange

I also have other non 4147 cards that offer no foreign fees. Those also have worked everywhere I wanted them to work in Europe.

This is simply a commercial issue. If I do not like the payment terms that come with your credit card, I am not obligated to sell you products on those terms. If you still want to buy my products, you will just have to come up with a payment method that is acceptable to me. The Dutch Railway came down on this one years ago.

Deutsche Bahn is a big operation. All it takes is a nice memo from someone in the finance department to the CEO to the effect, "Do you realize we are subsidizing foreigners who pay with their triple-miles credit cards to the tune of x.000.000 EUR/yr?"

I have been to smaller hotels in Germany which give you a choice of paying cash, or adding 5% to the bill for credit card payment. The Bayreuther Festspiel also tacks on 5% for credit card orders for opera tickets. There is also the option is to pay by wire transfer without surcharge.

The Visa Europe web site states that the limitation on interchange to
0.3% is valid only on transactions where the card issuer and merchant both are within the EEA (European Economic Area).

Apparently that was true for the original "Payment Services Directive" of 2007, referred to on the official EU website as PSD (2007/64/EC). As of June 9, 2015, it has been replaced by PSD2 (2015/751). According to the FAQ page for the new directive,

8. Will the new rules also apply to international payments?

While the former Directive (2007/64/EC) only applies to intra-EU
payments, PSD2 extends a number of obligations, notably information
obligations, to payments to and from third countries, where one of the
payment service providers is located in the European Union.