Buy Rick Steves Italy train pass or pay as we go?

I guess my first reaction is why are you doing all this train traveling? If I read this correctly, you have a round-trip Rome-Naples, and another roundtrip Florence to Venice? All this training in only 11 days? It appears you'll see most of Italy from the inside of a train... Can't you re-work your route to limit this train travel? With the exception of the Pisa route (I'm guessing from Florence) and the Siena route, almost all these other runs - from a time perspective - appear to be on high-speed trains. Don't forget you'll have to add seat reservation fees for each person on each of these routes. That can run you $10 (or more) per leg. Not sure how many are in your party or the ages of the folks, but you could look at group or family rates. If you are only a party of two without children, then you could score some huge discounts with the Trenitalia MINI promotion. Using the MINI, you can save up to 70% on some runs. That makes the pass option less viable... but it is inflexible with specific trains, dates, and times. Based on your routing, that does not appear to be a conflict. While riding trains in Italy can be a great way to see parts of the country, I'd really reconsider your route and "train-time." Good Luck!

The only bit of advice I can offer is NEVER use Rail Europe (or similar sites) to find ticket prices or schedules. These sites only show the relatively few trains for which they sell tickets at very inflated prices. Always get your rail information from the national rail websites.

If Rail Europe is showing a rail pass is slightly cheaper but did you add in the seat reservations fees required for rail passes? Since RE is not a reliable source for accurate fares, I am sure the p2p will be cheaper. And seven train rides in 11 days is crazy. All you will see in the inside of train stations and train cars.

sherrie, My question is the same as Ron mentioned - that seems to be a LOT of rail trips for an 11-day journey! It would help if you could provide further details on your trip, as I'm sure there's a more efficient way to structure it. As the others have mentioned, Railpasses do not include the reservation fees which are compulsory on "fast" trains, so you'll have to pay separately "out of pocket" for those. Be very sure that you have the correct reservations for each train, as if you're caught without them you'll be fined ON THE SPOT (and it won't be cheap)! Good luck!

Well, when we started this process a month ago it didn't seem like we were trying to do too much. Here's the gist of it and feel free to advise/chastise. Remember that we have to do this trip over our granddaughters spring break, i.e. April 14 through April 24...Easter week essentially. So we already knew that there would be lots of people & steep prices. We live in CO & she lives in NC so we had to coordinate that, too. We're flying into Florence & arrive 4/15/11 @ 11:00 am. Then taking the train (the fast one) to Rome because we don't want to be in Rome during the Easter week-end. Saturday, 4/16 we're touring the Sistine & Vatican in the early morning & touring the Colleseum & Ancient Rome in the afternoon. Sunday, 4/17 we're taking the train to Pompeii Monday 4/18 morning we've decided (this has changed a few times) to head to Siena (reservations for the night) via Orvieto & Civita. Tuesday 4/19 Siena all day & then take late afternoon train to Florence. Hotel reservations in Florence. Wednesday, 4/20 all day & night in Florence Thursday, 4/21 morning train to Pisa to meet friends
mid-afternoon train back to Florence. Friday, 4/22 morning fast train to Venice. Night in Venice Saturday, 4/23 all day in Venice. Fast train back to Florence. Sunday depart Florence for US. Doesn't seem outrageous to us but I'll wait to hear suggestions from the rest of you. A question: Is it better to see Orvieto/Civita OR San Gimignano? OR better yet, could we see San Gimignano on our way from Siena to Florence?

For a lot of us it is exhausting just to read it. While it is easy to say, take the train to Florence, and then the train to ...... You don't realize how much time is lost to checking in/out hotels, finding hotels, finding train stations, finding train, getting oriented to new location, packing/unpacking, etc. We always plan on lose at least a half day if not more of productive sightseeing when changing locations and that doesn't include travel time. Once in Florence, stay in Florence. Not sure why you flew into Florence since I am sure it would have been cheaper to fly into Rome. But that is done. I would hold Venice for the next trip. Come to our meeting on Saturday.

sherrie, I had the same reaction as the others in reading over your proposed Itinerary - I was thoroughly exhausted! I realize you're working within the constraints of your grand daughter's spring break, but my suggestion would be to reduce the number of places you'll be visiting and strive for quality rather than quantity ("Piano, Piano..." as Ron said - it's the way things operate in Italy)! As Rick frequently says "assume you will return." A few comments to add to the suggestions from the others.... > The trip to Pompeii from Rome will be a LONG (and tiring) day! You'll need to take one of the fast trains to Napoli Centrale and then walk downstairs and transfer to the Circumvesuviana commuter train. As Ron mentioned, there will be fewer trains on Sundays. None of this is difficult, but it does take time. Be sure to wear Money Belts, especially on the Circumvesuviana! You might consider using a Tour Guide at Pompeii, as you'll learn far more of the history (and the experience will be much more interesting for your grand daughter). You can try contacting Gaetano Manfredi but if he's occupied you'll probably be approached by other Guides when you enter the site. > Regarding travel from Rome to Siena via Orvieto and Civita, this is simply NOT a realistic plan! I replied on this exact subject on another post on the HelpLine recently, but unfortunately can't find it, so will have to repeat the information. continued in Part 2.....

Wow – I'm like Frank; tired and thankful I'm not on this trip. We don't mean to chastise or criticize but Italy IS NOT the USA. Things here just don't move fast. In fact, the Italians pride themselves on this attribute. My Italian friends are always saying to me, "Ronaldo; piano, piano"... which means, Slowly, GO slowly! And that's really the way to see Italy; not running from spot to spot -you'll lose the character of the country. I realize you want to "see" everything, but you just can't in one trip and the result is you won't see anything – except the insides of trains. Looking at your route – it appears your first few days are set. Once you arrive in Florence, you'll have to get from the airport to the train station, then onto the train to Rome, and then to your hotel. With an 11:00 arrival in Florence, you probably will not make your hotel in Rome until 15:00 at the earliest (depending on the speed of train and where your hotel is!). And you will be TOAST from the flights, jetlag, and the train. The next day your tours are booked(?) and that will be a full day. If you do Pompeii on a Sunday, realize FAR FEWER trains run on Sundays... and even with Le Frecce trains to Naples, you still have to connect to the slower train to get to Pompeii. Figure an easy 2-hour train trip each way (plus time waiting at stations for trains). That's an easy 5 hours on trains (or train platforms) on Sunday... and you'll get back late. Fact is, you may spend more time getting there than you will in Pompeii.

sherrie, Part 2.... While it's only about a one hour trip from Rome to Orvieto, getting to Civita involves the Cotral Bus to Bagnoregio (about one hour) and then a Shuttle (about 20-minutes) to the base of the bridge at Civita. Add to this the waiting times for the Buses and trains. One other "complication" to consider - I've found on at least one past occasion that the Shuttle to Civitia takes a "siesta" in the afternoon (apparently a "cost cutting" move) so there may be a delay in returning to Bagnoregio and you could potentially miss the Bus back to Orvieto. That could make your trip to Siena an "overnight affair"! Again, none of this is difficult but takes time, and it would take the better part of a day to actually get to Siena. I'd suggest forgetting Orvieto / Civita / San Gimignano on this trip and plan to return when you can spend a few days and enjoy them properly. > You might consider using the Bus from Siena to Florence. With the Corse Rapide Buses, the travel time is about the same and you'll depart from the centre of town which saves a Taxi ride down the hill to the rail station. One point to note that there are fewer departures of the Corse Rapide Buses, but more of the slightly longer Corse Ordinarie versions - both will get you to Florence. > I wouldn't bother with the trip to Pisa, as IMO it's not worth the effort. Could your friends meet you in Florence? > If you must see Venice, I'd suggest going as a day trip. Leave early and return in the evening. Changing Hotels for one night would be a darn nuisance, and it would be easier to stay in Florence for your flight back to the U.S. As Frank suggested, you might want to attend the RS meeting in Colorado. Good luck!

The next day, if your train DIRECTLY to Siena it takes about 3 hours. You'll never be able to get to Orvieto AND Civita di Bagnoregio on one day.. and still go to Siena. First you'd have to take a train to Orvieo, a trip that takes a little more than an hour... If you just walk quickly (and why?) through Orvieto, perhaps two hours. Then you ride the bus 1 hour+ to Civita di Bagnoregio, then one hour + to get back to Orvieto. Then you catch a train from Orvieto to Siena, which is roughly two hours. So on this day, not counting the time waiting for buses ( and they are limited at Civita) and trains, you've traveled for 5+ hours on trains and buses... and 5+ hours the day before? In four days, counting your arrival at FLR at 11:00, you've been on trains, planes, buses, bus stops, and train platforms for about 25 hours! You just can't do this logistically. It's exhausting to think about. Frankly, I'd scrap Pompeii (go to Ostia Antica instead) and stay in Rome on Sunday. One day in Rome is a sin for those of us who have lived there! I'd forget about Civita di Bagnoregio, and you could still see Orvieto on the way to Siena. Do remember that Friday, April 22 is Good Friday and trains will be running on Holiday schedule.... I'm sorry, but I'd think about the focus of your vacation. If it's just to see stuff, and check it off the list, then you have that working. But when you come back and ask about San Gimignano when you smmarize your agenda, I just don't think you're hearing what folks are saying. You need to be cutting, not adding! Just my two cents... You'll love Italy – you'll come back! Make it a trip so folks want to come back, not survive.

Ron & Ken, Thanks so much for taking time to offer great suggestions... many that we'll likely actually implement ! I booked Gaetano M. in Pompeii weeks ago so that's done! Thanks for the theft alert reminder. We try to go 'hands free' except for a water bottle when we can since a friend was 'picked' when we were on a bus in Athens a few years ago. We'll take special care in Naples. Rome is squared away and we're only hitting the high spots - those places that our granddaughter has asked to see because she's read or studied about them. And Pompeii is at the top of her bucket list so no changing that. We must go to Pisa to spend the day w/a long-time colleague from Moscow who will be there on business with a mutual Italian friend. (for about 10 years I travelled to Russia &/or Ukraine 4-6 times a year and I can't miss this serendipitous opportunity). So Pisa is definately in. We've been to San G. but not Civita so we're still thinking about Civita on the way to Siena - and I do understand & appreciate your very helpful advice about how to maneuver our way there. We enjoy the train journeys & use the time to write in our journals, etc. so taking most of the day to get to Siena via Civita is still on the table. We'll take your advice & scrap San G! I promise to let you know how it worked out - or not. Your suggestion to take the bus rather than the train from Siena to Florence is a good one & thanks for the 'how to' details. Still considering your suggestion to make Venice (also on her bucket list) an overnight or day trip rather than 2 days & 2 nights. It would have been perfect if the original plan of 'into Rome out of Venice' had been viable. Thanks again to both of you. What RS meeting in Centennial this week-end?
Sherrie

sherrie, Some of the "regulars" on the HelpLine have started "RS Groups" that meet once a month to discuss European travel matters, usually at a convenient Panera Bread location. So far there are groups in the Denver area, Atlanta and Sacramento (that I know of). I don't have information on the exact locations, but hopefully Frank will read this Thread again, as I'm sure he'll be able to provide all the details on the group in your area. Cheers!

There's a thread in the General section of the Helpline with details on this Saturday's Denver meeting (Since I am in Atlanta I didn't read it :) )