Beware Florence Tram fines

That is a tough (and expensive) lesson to learn. Thanks for sharing so others will know the procedure in advance.

That is unfortunately but it is well discussed on this site about validating tickets -- train, bus, etc. Have to do the same thing on the Denver transit system.

I'm surprised that the book doesn't mention that. I depend on the RS Guides for this type of how-to information. Checking out the Florence Transit website and I can't find info on there either. I guess we'd all better work on our mind reading skills before heading to Florence.

Frank:

That is unfortunately but it well discussed on this site about validating tickets -- train, bus, etc. Have to do the same thing on the Denver transit system.

That is true. I recently took the Denver airport train into the city. We did have a fare inspector check everyone's fares. But...a tourist is more likely to buy a ticket from a machine, that is already validated. So I doubt a tourist is likely to get caught with an unvalidated ticket.

I think that's fairly common throughout Europe and the US, although many countries are not as hard-line as the Italians about enforcing it. That said, I don't think that travelers should rely on Rick Steves to give them every piece of information (not that I think you are saying that). But Florence has been doing this for years (and there are any number of posts here that confirm that), so it pays to check on things like that. I always assume that public transportation tickets must be validated unless I find out otherwise.

There are no instructions at the machine, no tram agent on board or on the platform.

It's written, in English, on all tickets: "tickets must be stamped immediately on entering the bus/tram etc."

If they had to hire an agent for each vehicle and for hundreds of platforms a ticket would cost 5 €.

it also applies to the trams!

It's not about trams or buses or trains, all tickets based on time where you are entitled to unlimited transfers need a way to "start the clock".

I was lucky I figured out that the tram ticket had to be validated last September when I boarded the tram at the airport station.

susiestalcup, thanks for describing your tram ticket experience. I don't think the point of your post was whether the procedure for validating a tram ticket has been discussed on this Forum before or could have been divined somewhere else. I don't think you were asking the Forum what you did wrong -- you've already figured it out. The tram ticket validation procedure wasn't obvious to you at the time, you (literally) paid the price, and you returned to the Forum with a lessons learned post to help others.

This brings up a general comment: I sometimes see pile-on, finger-wag comments from posters after someone returns to post on the Forum about a travel mistake they made -- one they realized, in hindsight, could have been avoided. After an OP posts their story, other posters apparently feel the need to point out what the OP did wrong -- even though the OP has already acknowledged it. Lessons-learned posts (not everyone writes trip reports) are a sort of Forum public service. There are many of these on the Forum, but sometimes responses to an OP seem to go sideways and then keep rolling that way until someone (sometimes the webmaster) "rescues" the thread. If an OP describes a mistake you never would have made and you have nothing other than a version of that observation to post, why not instead go gentle into that good night? Plenty of other threads await.

Rick mentions the need to validate bus tickets in the "Getting Around Florence" section of the Florence chapter in his guide to Italy. He's generally very, very good about logistical details like that.

From the latest guide book on Tuscany…” buy ticket from machine on platform, cash or credit card, validate onboard, good for 90 minutes and transferable to bus lines.” My emphasis.

I’m glad you had a delightful time in Italy in spite of this incident! It’s so good to be traveling again!

Also, always keep your validated tickets for any transportation in Europe until the entire transport is completed and you are on the street again. Sometimes the tickets are needed in metros, trams, etc. to exit the area and enter the street.

Always look for the yellow validation boxes in the trams when you get on.

It's the same way before getting on the Leonardo Express train from FCO into Rome Termini. You'll just about be physically checked on the train every time by a conductor. And fines there are quite hefty.

Thank you, OP, for sharing your experience & the reminder. I'm familiar with having to validate tram and train tickets, but because every place does it slightly differently (Validate on the platform? Validate on the bus/tram? Validate only when you exit the station? No need to validate at all?), it is always a source of mild travel anxiety that I'm going to 'do it wrong' and get busted.

I'm going to Florence in January. In hindsight, are the validation boxes obvious on the tram? I know on many buses/trams there are boxes at each entrance. Is that where they are on the Florence tram?

are the validation boxes obvious on the tram?

https://images.app.goo.gl/E3G57fpsQXEXmXRB9

Thank you Dario, that photo is helpful.

Validation of tickets on public transit is very similar in many
countries, and common sense would dictate there would be some way to
keep people from riding for free.

And also very different in others. In my hometown, you but a ticket and hop on. No turnstiles, no validation, it's an honor system.

No turnstiles, no validation, it's an honor system.

In Calgary, don't you have to use the ticket within 90 minutes from purchase? If so, it seems a - moderately inconvenient - system of pre-validated tickets.

Inconvenient because this way you can't buy a single ticket and keep it for years in the wallet "just in case".

It's been a long time since I've used public transit at home, but 90 minutes sounds about right. My point is that different locations have different rules and it can be confusing without proper signage. I honestly don't know if Calgary Transit posts its ridership rules in a convenient way or not. While ignorance is no defense, governments should need to take reasonable efforts to educate if the result could be a fine.

As Dario pointed out, every ticket has it written that it must be validated onboard, in Italian and in English. I think that's informative enough, the person only has to read what's on the ticket they're holding

My parents had a similar experience in Italy and in some places it is not clear what should be done with the tickets. Of course the Italian police probably do target foreigners as they are more unaware. Unfortunately, it's an expensive lesson and one that I'm glad gets brought up so others can learn and always read about the systems before you leave. My parents went pre-internet so hopefully now everyone can read up about the different train systems.

For my own trip research:

Dario, I believe the ticket shown in your link above is an older one? Per my digging online, it sounds like ATAF was replaced in 2021 as the operator managing Tuscan public transit? Current Urbano Capoluogo tickets (Urban Capital: used for public transit in Florence and some additional locations ) may look like this?

https://www.facebook.com/Edicoladelcampino/photos/a.1369832159888761/1691758641029443/?type=3
https://www.nove.firenze.it/bus-ecco-i-nuovi-biglietti-in-vendita-dal-1-novembre.htm

While they don't have the same ""tickets must be stamped immediately, etc." language, it is noted politely twice on the front to please stamp (time validate) them, and where on the ticket to do that. Current? Not current?

More about tickets on this site:
https://www.at-bus.it/en/tickets-and-season-passes/buyingtickets.html

Note this text under "Urbano Capoluogo":

Validity of stamped ticket: 70 minutes from stamping the ticket; in
Florence 90 minutes from stamping the ticket Validity of unstamped
ticket: for paper tickets, as long as it remains legible and intact;
for digital tickets, 12 months from purchase

This is a potentially useful FAQ page:
https://www.at-bus.it/en/talkwithat.html#sez1

Validation of public transit tickets is a good thing to have in mind as it's pretty much standard throughout Italy and in other countries as well. There are tickets which come pre-validated, such as regionale train tickets purchased online and, of course all of the "fast train" tickets but for stuff like local buses, trams and light rail, time-stamping the tickets is proof to authorities making spot checks that a rider hasn't re-used a ticket, possibly more than once.

Your post is a good reminder, Susie, that whether tourist or local, those checkers take their jobs seriously, and that ignorance isn't considered an accepted excuse. So sorry you left lovely (!!!) Florence "on a down note" but bravo for your "that's on us" attitude, and for taking the time to share the heads up. :O)

PS: in my home city of Minneapolis, it's a $180 fine caught riding local light rail without a valid, unexpired ticket.

Surprised Roberto hasn't chimed in. His dad was a Florence ticket inspector.

Probably worth mentioning, not only are you responsible for validating tickets (Generally any ticket not for a specific train/time/and seat) but even if the machine is broke, and not physically possible to validate the ticket, you must do so. Some tickets have on the back, spaces where you can write the date and time on the ticket, or you can just do so on one side.

https://www.google.com/search?q=current%20florence%20bus%20tickets&tbm=isch&hl=en-US&tbs=rimg:CRhu8P1N-lYJYY-H_1ilckPwy8AEAsgIIEAA6BAgBEAA&prmd=inv&rlz=1C9BKJA_enCA751CA797&sa=X&ved=0CCoQuIIBahcKEwiA1rqhwqz7AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBg&biw=1133&bih=625#imgrc=OT-pxni26GgBJM

Here’s a picture of the tickets , saying they need to be validated.

Sorry this happened, OP.

@ Dario.....thanks for the info regarding the English. Then I have no excuse.

When I got to Germany in 1971, none of this "stuff" ie, tickets, pay phones, coin locker instructions, etc were in any other language except German, likewise in France until the mid-1990s as far as I can recall.

Surprised Roberto hasn't chimed in. His dad was a Florence ticket inspector.

Well, since Florentines are not known for acquiescence, maybe it's better he didn't read that "Of course the Italian police probably do target foreigners ". I doubt Florentine ticket inspectors are in the police force, but I am sure they are decent people.

thanks for the info regarding the English.

You are welcome. Autolinee Toscane seems to have improved the TP service, but the ATAF version of ticket left no room for doubts.

SJ, if the tickets in this article's picture is what you were what you were referencing...

https://www.055firenze.it/art/209163/Trasporti-arriva-Autolinee-Toscane-biglietti-Ataf-non-saranno-pi-validi#.Y3IV1i-B1mA

...the article says that "Hourly tickets, carnets and monthly passes issued by Ataf & Li-nea will cease to be valid on 31 October 2021." Is it a different photo you were looking at? I'm still trying to determine if what I linked further above is the more current version.

I looked at lots of photos of tickets from different years, and every one of them says it needs to be validated on or before boarding, so it's not a new thing.
Perhaps the more recent tickets have English as well as Italian.
I can't remember them from when I first started going to Florence 20 years ago, but I know it was drilled into me from various travel sites to always validate your ticket on public transport in Italy!
I think visitors sometimes don't see people validating in the little machines; and that is perhaps because the local people have passes that don't need validating on every trip.

I think a lot of us have made the mad dash back down the train platform two minutes before departure because we suddenly remembered the validation rule!!

Speaking of Denver, I was riding the light rail home from the Auraria Campus one evening when a fare inspector came on board. The stops in Denver on the light rail are not that far apart, and the train soon approached the next stop, There was a huge number of people getting off, presumedly before the fare inspectors could catch them.

(we are aware of the ticket validation process for train travel —- it also applies to the trams!)

I think that in Europe, ticket validation is standard for all commuter traffic, where the stops are too close together for a conductor to cancel tickets. In Germany, on regular trains, there is time for a conductor to check tickets between stops; I don't know why the Italians don't have conductors, just fare inspectors.

What you call "fare inspectors" can actually sell train tickets, but you must tell 'em you need one either before getting on, or right after. You can't sit and wait and then say "oh, Yes I need a ticket" only when they have caught up to you

I don't know why the Italians don't have conductors, just fare inspectors.

Tickets are valid for a period and you can transfer between different means of transport.

Another reason is to save money. Today one conductor per train/bus/tram, like in the 50s, would be too expensive. Only on high speed trains, where tickets are sold at market prices and can be used only on that train, there are conductors on board during the all journey. And they check (or should) check all passengers.

On subsidized means of transport like Regional trains and city buses, a few fare inspectors move from one train (or bus) to another and make random checks.

There was a huge number of people getting off, presumedly before the fare inspectors could catch them.

In Berlin, they're just happy to pick off one - get off at the next stop and finish writing the ticket. Done, board the next Bahn through.

On German regional commuters they work in 2s or 3s and use the convergence method ie. no place to run, no place to hide.

I think visitors sometimes don't see people validating in the little
machines; and that is perhaps because the local people have passes
that don't need validating on every trip.

I think so as well SJ! And the only reason I was asking about current vs prior ticket is that if the Ataf & Lin-ea version is out of date, the newer ticket's validation verbiage - albeit still in English and Italian - is much abbreviated, comparatively.

But like all transport tickets or passes, you need to know if, when and how to time-stamp them if required, and they can't really spell all of that out on a little ticket, eh!? It helps to spend some time with a city's transport website, and even their tourism websites often have detailed instructions, such as this (although their info for Firenzecard is out of date):

https://www.visitflorence.com/moving-around-florence/by-bus.html

Even current guidebooks can be out of date if fares and procedures change after they go to press. I'll admit, figuring out public transport abroad has never been easy for me, probably because train travel and the like isn't common here.

It's the same way before getting on the Leonardo Express train from FCO into Rome Termini. You'll just about be physically checked on the train every time by a conductor. And fines there are quite hefty.

And this is where it can get confusing for the traveler. This is the standard advice, but at FCO they now have mostly machines to sell tickets, though you can get a ticket from a booth or one of the shops. If you purchase from most machines, your ticket will be for a specific train and time, and technically does not need validation. Same if you purchase a ticket using the app, it will be for a time and date, a specific train. They also have installed turnstile type gates at the platform that you pass through to get to the train. I can't absolutely state that the turnstile validates an untimed ticket, I have only used the timed tickets. Coming the other way, from Termini, an untimed ticket would need to be validated separately. The Leonardo Express is also Trenitalia though, not a municipal transit system.

This also speaks to why you may not see others validating, timed tickets from the machines, tickets from an app, weekly, monthly, or resident passes, all would not be validated each trip.

If you purchase from most machines, your ticket will be for a specific train and time, and technically does not need validation.

Are you sure? I had no idea at FCO there are trenitalia's ticket machines different from all the other ticket machines around. AFAIK the only regional tickets that do not need to be time-stamped are those sold via internet and the Leo Express is a regional train.

Are you sure? I had no idea at FCO there are trenitalia's ticket machines different from all the other ticket machines around

My experience was a year ago, and I was traveling on the FM1, which is a regional train, and the machine had me pick a departure time. There are also two high speed trains that depart from FCO (Genoa and Florence) so I suppose they sell those tickets as well...which would be Trenitalia. We did scan our tickets at the turnstile to get through.

In reference to tickets for trains, not trams, in Italy, we bought tickets for specific times from machines; but we validated them anyway in the validation machines on the platform.
That was in September.
I’ve been doing it so long I think it’s just habit now!
Tram tickets bought from machines on the platforms in Florence do need to be validated.

I am happy to report that I made 2 train goofs during my trip last May.
1. I did not validate a ticket on a regional train in Czechia. After discovering that I spoke English, he smiled at me at validated the ticket by hand. I was grateful that he didn't fine me.
2. I had a valid ticket to a train I wasn't on from Salzburg to Vienna. Again, a smile and a patient "Two options, get off at the next stop or purchase a ticket for thistrain from me. Again, no fine. Again, I felt grateful.

In Munich, ticket purchased from machines in U-Bahn stations (or in the trams) are open tickets and have to be cancelled (or devalued). They have arrows (triangles) on one end with the words "Hier entwerten". Wert is value, ent means to take away.

Tickets purchased from machines in S-Bahn stations are dated and don't have to be cancelled. These tickets are too wide to fit in the cancelling machines anyway.

Yes, my philosophy is "If the ticket fits in the validating machine, validate it." I figure it can't hurt.

I have been known to forget, though. I've never been fined, because I've always remembered before the ticket checker got to my car. On one occasion I missed the train, though, because I hopped off and ran to the validator but didn't make it back in time.

the machine had me pick a departure time.

The machine had you pick a departure time to calculate the right fare, not to sell you a ticket less flexible than the one you could get at the counter.

Traveling to new places means mistakes will be made, it’s a part of travel.

Unless there have been new lines constructed, the tram in Florence is not something a tourist would normally ride.

But...a tourist is more likely to buy a ticket from a machine, that is already validated.

As noted, some machine-dispensed tickets require validation. I ran across this in London in 1988, a ticket I just bought from a machine required onboard stamping.

Unless there have been new lines constructed, the tram in Florence is not something a tourist would normally ride.

The tram now has a line that goes to the airport! Very convenient.

And, referring back to the tram to and from the airport in Florence: when leaving the airport, buy your tram ticket at the little gift/newspaper shop inside the airport, to the left of the airport exit doors, not at the machines on the platform.
WAY easier.

When returning TO the airport, if you are in Florence beforehand, buy your ticket at any Tabacchiera shop (they sell newspapers, candy, cigarettes, little gifts) in advance.
The machines at the tram stop by SMN Rail Station and the area round them can be a seething mass of people.

I always keep two or three Florence bus/tram tickets on me when I'm there, as sometimes you just can't walk another step and want to get on a bus!

The tickets are valid for 90 minutes after validating them.