Best Way

Magic Carpet,

Transporter room - beam me over Scotty!

Armchair travel or Sofa Circuit ( a la "The Fabulous Thunderbirds")

No, I want the BEST, CHEAPEST, and FASTEST! And I want great scenery along the way.

A Star Trek transporter is always the best option.

Hola Helpliners, I know that I've been leaving these sorts of threads up recently as they are light and funny at first, but I'm posting now to make sure that such things don't become mean-spirited. I've been mulling over whether or not someone new to the Helpline would read this and be reluctant to post a question because they may feel ridiculed. Or, would it help them ask a better question? Do people with new questions read such posts in the first place? Or, do they only come to ask their question without reading other posts? Also, if by leaving these posts up, does this help the regulars get this out of their system and prevent snarky responses directly to those who ask such questions? Or is it only fueling the sentiment? Answering these questions aren't as important to me as simply keeping them in mind. I do want you all to have fun while being on the Helpline, just keep in mind that there are a lot of new travelers out there and they all need to feel comfortable posting here. Thanks,
RS Webmaster

Let me respond as to why I posted this. Lately, there seems to have been a lot of questions starting: "What is the BEST way to get from......" Only, what do they mean by best? Cheapest? Easiest? Fastest? Rather than put it down bluntly, I though a little levity might not only be fun but humor is shown to stick when making a point. Perhaps the next time someone wants to ask what the "best" way is, they'll explain what "best" means to them. And I firmly believe many newcomers, and even repeat posters, don't read previous postings or look for their answer before asking a question.

Ruby slippers work well, but only send you to Kansas.

Actually, after more thought, I don't think the transporter is the "best" way, since you don't see any scenery that way. And also, if "getting there is half the fun" - well, forget that!

My 2 centavos, what I sometimes wonder do some of the questions really serve a purpose, that is someone asks for a restaurant recommendation in Paris, that question alone is so wide open, not so much for snarky responses but it's a thread that could go on forever, and do people really take those recommendations and go to those places. Now if they want to be true RS type travelers they'll go out and find their own favorite which in the long run will be much more memorable because "they" found it. Or a question I saw today on the General Europe Board, a man says his company is transfering him to Europe, he and his wife have been to France, Italy and Spain and he will be traveling around Europe for his work and which country would we choose, now if I recommend Spain in the long run will it make any difference, that is will he and his wife say to each other, well that guy on the RS Travelers Helpline said Spain so that's where were moving! All one is going to get from a question like this is "I'm envious" type response and opinions of why one person would like to live in France and another person desires to live in Italy. So does that serve the purpose of the board and its title "Travelers Helpline."

Webby, My observations - most new posters neither do much research on their plans prior to posting nor do they either scroll back to find when their question was answered yesterday or a couple of hours before or search for the answer. There haven't been a lot of recent changes to the "Stickies". There are a LOT of identical questions, example = "How do I get reservations at the Borghese Gallery if I have a Roma Pass". Many of these could be gathered in a reworked regular questions area which would be easy to redirect people to. It would save bunches of repetitive typing. I do think it is a good thing to let the regulars let their hair down from time to time. Maybe a private board for invited regulars not made public? And another thought... you will know that the trolls come out on the weekends. Can you form a committee of "trusted" that would be able to quash a thread or post awaiting your examination after the weekend... Thanks for allowing us to respond... Nigel

If you want a private board where you can make fun of folks... I don't think that's the purpose of Rick Steves.com That would be a "start your own message board and invite your friends" IMHO I think these threads are just people trying to prove "look how witty I am" and do nothing else.

Carol, you have it exactly right.

I think these threads are mostly harmless, particularly since as others have said, I don't think most people do any reading or research on the board (or on the internet at all) before posting a question, even if it's a question that gets asked weekly or every day (see: chip and pin cards). I get that chip and pin cards are confusing, rail travel is confusing - a lot of this is confusing! But it's still somewhat frustrating that people ask questions before trying a basic google search. Asking actual, live people questions that you could have answered yourself in 2 seconds of googling is considered rude in most forums I've been on. Some even have a strict policy against it and will delete such questions, in others the regular users will feel free to engage snarkily or be outright rude in return. That doesn't happen here, people still take their time to answer these same, easily answered, repetitive questions over and over politely. So if a post like this helps regulars get that frustration out of their system, I wouldn't worry about it too much. That's my 2 cents.

Hard to say how many people do research before asking questions. We know some don't but maybe many do. They do their research, find their answer, and don't ask a question. I don't think you can assume that most newbies don't research.

Add my 2 cents to Sarah's, for the most part. "in others the regular users will feel free to engage snarkily or be outright rude in return. That doesn't happen here, people still take their time to answer these same, easily answered, repetitive questions over and over politely." As a fairly new poster, I have seen several instances of "snarky" responses that have sometimes been downright belittling and condescending and a couple of times came close to sending me away as a new poster. Being new to forums like this, I don't always know that a post is from a 'troll'. In my opinion the best thing to do if you know a post is a troll is to send a PM to webmaster and then stay off of the post, don't encourage them. I think joke posts like this do help relieve some of the regular's frustrations and I think they are amusing, unless they do start to get mean spirited.

"I think these threads are just people trying to prove "look how witty I am" and do nothing else" What threads (on the Wall)? Witty (as in funny)? Not sure I mean what threads you mean. As far as questionable threads, seems we regularly get posts of itineraries that are entirely too busy, taking huge leaps across Europe, hitting only well known destinations, and spending more time in transit than at a location. I call them checklist trips. "Look Mary, this is Rome. Check. Get a picture. Now we have to head for Venice." Mostly they seem to be proud of how many important venues they can squeeze into a very limited time without actually experiencing any place.

Of course, you have to remember that "snarkily or be outright rude " is often in the eyes of the beholder. Now, I read less than half of the postings and respond to even fewer but cannot say that I have seen any ready rude postings. (Other than Steve of a couple years ago) BUT - I am prone to telling poster who ask vague, wide open questions that they should do their homework via guidebooks and DVDs and then come back with specific questions that can be answered within the space allocated for an answer. One young lady fired back via PM that this was her homework, she didn't have time to read stupid guidebooks or to go to libraries, and if I couldn't answer her question, then I should just shut up. I guess she thought my response was rude. And in her self-centered world, it probably was.

Grier - Well I assume that most people who are visiting this board at first don't do any prior research because the questions reflect that. The vast majority of questions asked are ones that are asked very frequently. That says to me the person didn't read (or "lurk") in the forum before they started asking questions (that also used to be common internet equitette - but now I'm sounding old!) A lot of questions could be answered by google searching instead of asking actual people the questions. I think the benefit of a board like this is that european travel is so complex that it's often great to have advice from people who've done it before, particularly with trickier issues that aren't covered in detail by guidebooks or basic internet travel pages. I think it's easy to tell when people haven't done a lot of research when they say "I'm going to France. Where should I go?" or "What hotel should I stay at in insert enormous city here". A question that would make more sense is: "I like this and this and want to do some of this. What are some less traveled locations in France that would possibly interest me?" Or "I am torn between staying at this hotel in this neighborhood, or this one in this other neighborhood. Anyone have any experience with either neighborhood or hotel?" That indicates that a person has "done their homework" so to speak before asking impossibly broad questions. and Barry - I thought the same thing about that post, although I responded anyway. Asking travelers about questions you should be asking expats seems strange to me.

I think for a lot of people this might be the first time they have ever posted on some kind of forum (me) and did not even know they existed, but assumed because it is RS type travelers (or so they thought) that their questions would be answered without judgement. I think if there are some unwritten rules of internet etiquette, other than politeness, many people do not know what they are. If someone is a first time traveler and do not have family or friends who have been to Europe they are simply looking for a place to start. When I am bored or irritated by the questions I will know its time to move on, as there will always be someone who will try to be helpful.

I agree with Terry Kathryn. Post in a polite, helpful manner. There is no justification for rude behavior; for example, the girl who sent (Centennial) Frank a PM was way out of line. I think it is not rude at all to suggest to the new traveler that they may find the Rick Steves or other travel guidebooks helpful, and that they may want to do some research before their trip.

Terry Katheryn: It does indeed seem that a good chunk of people may not be regular internet users or maybe have even posted on a message board before. That said, I still think it's just polite and common sense to realize that if you're asking real people on a message board a question, you are in essence asking them to take time out from their day to answer. It is not the same as a google search where the answers already exist. And as such it would be beneficial for newbies to respond politely, to realize that broad questions are pointless (I mean that's not an unwritten internet rule, it's just common sense, how can someone choose what you want to do?), to respond to threads as opposed to posting once and never commenting again, to thank people for their advice. I just think that as long as we're having a discussion about politeness and rudeness on the forum, we should realize that it's a two way street. Newbies and old-timers should be polite, and that means different things for those two groups. At the very least, I wish newbies would read the sticky posts at the top of each board- they exist for a reason.

But that would require some effort. With the internet the concept of research skills has diminished substantially. At the university level we have enormous problems with students simply copying internet information turning it in as a research project and their work. To many people of a certain age just asking the question is research. Besides trying to shape a question, at the same time, one needs to consider the shape of the answer. Is it a three word answer or thirty pages. If it is a thirty page answer, it is not a very good question. While it is a polite thing to say that there are no bad question, there sure are a lot of poor questions. Classic example - see Cordoba, Malaga, Granada under To The West. Is there a question in that rambling?

Sarah - my point was that we don't know how many newbies use the helpline and never post questions. They don't post questions because they find the information they need by searching past questions. I just don't think you can say that most newbies don't research because more people use this site than just the ones who ask questions.

Sarah fm Stuttart, you and I seem to think alike! What really brought this to my attention is a post on the General Europe board from a woman who wants to visit some of the major cities and sites in Europe but doesn't want to encounter other Americans. Your response was spot on; "The conundrum is this: most travelers want to visit places with a lot of history or sights that are appealing to, well, travelers. But then they don't want to be surrounded by fellow travelers!" That statement fits this thread exactly. To go to Europe with the expectation of being the only American at a cafe in Paris or in a pub in London is simply unrealistic. Along a similar vein why is it some people want to go and want to hide their nationality, primarily American, that is another unrealistic expectation to have.

Barry- AMEN AND AMEN!

Just to hop on the meta-thread, this "newbie" thing is common in almost every forum. What I think it would help is change the Helpline interface, which is too 1998 if I might respectfully say so. A more forum-like structure, with a big, easy-to-spot SEARCH field on the top, and "threaded" topics would certainly help. Like a standard vBulletin forum. I admire people who keep copying-and-pasting general instructions for very recurrent questions in many threads like Frank, Nigel or Lee. Still, I think a more resourceful, yet easy to operate, forum would be helpful for everybody. I'd gladly, for instance, write more informative responses about certain topics I'm very familiar with (driving regulations, villages in remote parts of the Alps, day-trips in the Benelux, for instance), if I knew they wouldn't fall into oblivion of the 4ht, 5th page soon because somebody else is posting the n-th "how do I get from Vernazza to Varenna?" question. But without a good interface (threaded topics, easy-to-quote option, linkable threads etc.), we can't expect newbies to go all their way to find information they want, because there will always be someone to give a quick answer.

Now on the specifics of "best way": most people don't actually know how to sort out travel options. Especially when they are planning their first trips. They will most likely assume people evaluate options by their same logic - normal reaction. It is like buying your car for the very first time. What I figure out is that most people are asking for a "time-cost effective option within the context of a 2-4 weeks vacation budget at roughly $ 120-200/person/day". That has probably to do with the demographics of the Helpiners and RS clientele. So I just assume that (middle-upper class traveler, having not much time available, not going for the cheapest but still price-conscious) unless the person gives some additional information.

Something else that is seen quite often on the board from people asking questions is simply not providing any information to assist them. I just completed reading three questions that were one sentence long. The first was looking for a "reasonable" B&B or hotel, and the thread topic itself needed editing but the poster didn't take the time to correct that. The second wanted to know what they should do with an extra 4 or 5 days in Europe but didn't provide any other information except they would be in Amsterdam, this thread turned into what looks like a conversation, one line sentences back and forth. And the third was for restaurant recommendations in some Portugal cities, without providing likes and dislikes or if there are any dietary restrictions. My point being to get a valid response the poster needs to take the time and effort to provide some background information and edit their post if they want a good solid answer. These type of questions in general may unintentionally bring out snarky responses, how many times can one read similar type questions without it getting on their nerves or have the need to just get it out of ones system.

Have you read the thread "Tell me about Austria and tell me about Belgium" under General Europe? When someone politely tells this person a guidebook might help him in doing his research, he replies "This is my research."

Rebecca when I saw the original post my first thought was your kidding me! Another post on the same board from a young lady traveling to Europe for 10 weeks with her cousin is one where you can see she has done her homework, bought some guidebooks and read them, researched hostels and came to the board with pertinant questions about her plans and thoughts on her trip. That was very nice to see!