Behavior of fellow intl. travelers abroad trains in Italy

I found a few of English speaking travelers trying to sneak into the 1st class parts of the train (don't remember if they were Americans, Canadians, Brits, or Aussies). One girl tried it twice, first time playing dumb, second time thinking the conductors where not going to pass thru again, but did and booted her off the train for disobeying him.

I'm not saying you are wrong. People can be incredibly rude and stupid. But let's look at it from their perspective for a moment. They may or may not speak any Italian, so they may not have realized that their seats were not guaranteed. They thought they bought tickets so they'd have seats. Along comes someone who tells them to move their teen daughter somewhere else. They're already afraid their belongings are at risk from all the pickpockets around, and you try to separate her from her most important belonging, her child. You and the conductor yell at them. Somewhere this family is telling a story about being forced off a train.

I'm betting this woman feels "entitled" to things, so she expected that if she wanted a seat, she should have the seat. That's why she was yelling and so angry, but the husband was not, and the kids were crying.

I'm sure her family was ashamed of her behavior, but I'll bet she was cutting in line and demanding throughout her holiday.

Just my thoughts.

Yes, Karen, I understand that. I'm usually helpful with foreigners, and willing to help. Most of the times I had my seats taken I polite explanation did the way, I know the feeling of arriving in a country whose language you don't speak after an overnight flight and dealing with tickets and so. I even helped foreign tourists buying the right tickets on the subway when I see them struggling with the misleading menu translations in English. However this woman reacted like I was going to snatch her purse or something, 11AM, in a full train. My goodwill ended there. And to suggest I was teaming up with two other guys to bully her girl? Unacceptable and gross.

Wow, I never imagined it. An Ugly Canadian story!

Let me ask this- I know on DB, if a seat is reserved, there's a digital display that clearly indicates so, and shows for which portion of the trip. Do trains in Italy clearly indicate this as well, or is it a matter that you find that the seat is reserved only when the reservee arrives to claim their seat?

No, Italian trains don't have such displays. Indeed, most Italian trains require seat reservation. In some routes, Trenitalia sells "tickets without seat guarantees" when the train is already full but is in a route where there are many no-shows. This advice is clearly displayed on the touch-screen ticket machines.

Seat mix-ups happen on trains. There have been times when I read the ticket incorrectly and sat in the wrong seat. I've witnessed others do the same. When that happens on a crowded train, a polite exchange with the person entitled to the seat should be all that is needed to clear up the matter. There is absolutely no excuse for rudeness and insults. The woman was wrong.

As to whether "foreigners usually disrespect seat assignments on trains" I'm not sure that's true, but I don't travel by train often enough anymore to have an informed opinion on that.

Actually, it isn't just non-nationals who do this. Last year we had 6 reserved seats on the TGV from Saverne to Paris, when we boarded three of the seats were occupied by Frenchmen who had boarded in Strasbourg. We simply found seats elsewhere and did not bother to ask them to move. We have also had similar experiences in Italy and Spain with nationals. I think the seat reservation system is somewhat at fault as it is sometimes very hard to determine what seats are reserved for which legs of the journey. Nevertheless, we have never had the kind of awful encounter you had.

I've found that there seems to be a sort of unwritten rule/custom in some countries: if the train is mostly empty, most people tend on not go by the seat reservations and simply sit wherever they want. If the train suddenly fills up, then there is a lot of scrambling that goes on and people move to their reserved seats. Personally if the carriage is mostly empty, I would never force a family traveling together to split apart so I can have my reserved seat. One has the right to do it, but in my book that's bad karma;)

What's the Octagon?

Andre L did say the train was full.....

Usually, I just read all the great replies on this site, but last June I traveled through Italy by train from Milan to Verona, and on to Venice. A few days later we went to Munich from Verona. Well...
First trip train hot! Very hot! Stuff happens. From Verona to Venice our train did not have car 5 with our assigned seats. (Car 5 where are you). Decided to sit in some empty seats, moved when passengers got on at an intermediate stop. Two Italian ladies let us know we were in their seats. Moved again. Stuff happens...

From Verona to Munich no car 7 (Car 7 where are you).
Sat in last car (Car 8) seats 23,24. Fellow traveler tells us, can't sit there, This compartment is going to be full. Went to next car, vowed not to move again and wondered when the next traveler at the next stop would want our current seats. Didn't happen. Stuff does not always.
By the way, that compartment never filled up. The guy sat alone the whole trip. Stuff happens...

"...foreigners usually disrespect seat assignments on trains", a rather generalized conclusion, however...

It's possible that they simply do not understand the system, in which case, that's not true disrespect or disdain, it's merely confusion which is understandable. But there is that portion of the population out there that doesnt give a damn about the rules and to hell with their fellow men.

If Andre bought the seat, then its his seat for the journey. He did the correct thing in summoning the conductor, which is a good tip, by the way. Would this kind of bad acting on the Canadians part have worked on an international flight? Andre is not responsible for the family failing to get their tickets the same as he did and they had the same opportunity. The behavior of the father in all of this is the most telling of all....he KNEW they were in the wrong.

Andre L.,

Sorry to hear about your situation, and also sorry to hear that Canadians were the source of the problem. That seems to be an infrequent occurrence, but just goes to show that there can be "ugly travellers" of any nationality. I've encountered a few "ugly Canadians" in my travels, and I've often been tempted to tell them that perhaps they'd be happier touring at home.

I've also encountered seat mix-ups in Italy. On one occasion, I arrived at my reserved seat to find someone (an Italian) already seated there. We compared tickets, and both specified that particular seat (not sure how that occurred?). I simply stood until another seat became available (which usually doesn't mean a long wait).

It's unfortunate that the children were driven to tears, but one point that stands out from your experience is the behaviour of the Father. In my mind the situation was very clear - you had a reserved seat and they didn't, and therefore the "right" thing to do would be to move! IMHO, the Father needs to "get some backbone" and should have taken charge and made it clear to his Wife that she needed to move (even if they had to stand). This would have tended to defuse the conflict to a great extent, and the children would have had a much more pleasant Italian train experience. There's probably no doubt on which spouse "rules the roost" in that marriage!

I really can't understand why they thought that having the children seated besides two Italian youngsters would have resulted in "bullying". I've encountered some "interesting characters" on Italian trains, but never have observed any bullying. I suspect this was their first time in Italy, and they were nervous about travelling there?

Hopefully you'll encounter more polite Canadians in future.

Cheers!

In my train experiences in Germany and France primarily,( never took a train in Italy,) never, never did I witness or come across myself such an experience as did Andre. Luckily! This involves sixteen trips since 1971. Andre was more than polite and civil. In Germany I have been "bumped" a few times by someone showing up with a ticket and reservation for the seat I was occupying. In that case upon seeing the reservation you smile and move. That's the civil and right thing to do. That person had a right to the seat...I didn't. A few times I bumped others who had my reserved seat in Germany. If the train had not been crowded, as in Andre's situation, I would have sat somewhere else. But it was crowded...Andre had a right to his reserved seat. Since the father made no objections, he knew what the story was. Luckily, I mean, for the Canadian mother and daughter Andre spoke to them in English in a firm but civil manner. What if this verbal exchange had been in a foreign language without either understanding each other, the scene would have been even uglier...with mama still cursing. Where's the dignity? I have no sympathy for that family, and why were the kids crying??

Lots of us (Americans) are clueless when it comes to train travel. Getting on the right train, correct car, reserved seat. It is complicated if you've never done it before. However, when someone with a reservation for the seat you are in shows up, any reasonable person would smile and move. Or, at least, move. The person with the reservation isn't always right. Sometimes they are in the wrong car.

In Italy it is not unusual for a train to have more passengers than seats. People may be stuck in the aisles. Having a ticket doesn't guarantee a seat. And that is why I usually get a reservation, even when I think it isn't really necessary. Then I have a claim on a seat. My recollection of train travel in Italy is that they do use the little reservation notices on the compartments. Sometimes the reservation is for only part of a longer trip. If passengers learn to decipher these notices, they can occupy the seat until the reservation person boards. There's always someone around who understands the system and can help straighten things out.

I've never observed unpleasantness over this. Discussion, yes; arguments, no.

The important thing is to remember we're all individuals. There are definitely rude people out there but don't let it taint your opinion of every foreigner.

It's possible they were so paranoid about being scammed while in Italy, that they considered anyone who talked to them a potential thief.

I'm waiting for the post from an indignant Canadian mother about how some rude foreigner was trying to scam her daughter out of her seat...

We took the Eurostar to Paris one winter's day and two British yummy mummies with very posh accents, and their 4 young children, all laden with ski equipment, boarded our coach just ahead of us. They dumped all their skis and accoutrements and baggage in the luggage area, spilling out onto the passageway making it nearly impossible to get by, then they ushered the four youngsters to seats with a table so that the kids could colour pictures and play board games. The mothers took their places away from them at the far end of the coach.

At Ashford some people boarded and found the children in their seats. The innocent children looked puzzled and the mothers, who could see what was taking place, studiously ignored the situation.
Someone (well, me, actually) indicated that the mothers were at the end of the coach, so the kids had to be moved to their proper places which were IN ANOTHER COACH!

Why didn't the father just take the other seat ( I am sure he wasn't afraid of being bullied, look who he married) ,, rather then send of teenage girl. This family was stupid.

I tend to agree that mix ups happen, people sit in the wrong seats, and everyone is different about how they respond when confronted with that situation. Heck, I was the one accidentally sitting in a reserved seat in England last fall, and English is my native language!

That said, I think there are also just so many travel site and advice columns that tell you how to squeeze a little extra out of your travel dollar that sometimes people forget (or never know?) that the advice sometimes pushes the boundary between a little indiscretion and just plain rude or cheating. So every time travelers are advised to order one meal and split it; or slip in the back entrance and avoid paying the entry fee; or don't buy a tram ticket and take the risk of being caught (or claim ignorance and hope to get off easy); or yes, buy a second class or unreserved seat and attempt an informal upgrade to first class, I think there is a chance an inexperienced traveler will interpret advice as "everybody does it." When the mother said "This is Italy, nobody cares..." I think you hit one of those types.

But often NOT everyone does it, and when people DO do it, it comes at the expense of others. So I am not suggesting people can't take these little liberties if they can, but certainly if they are caught...or if they occupy someone else's seat and that person claims it... they ought to say they're sorry and move on. The sense of entitlement of SOME tourists is astounding, anywhere you go. Just because someone tells you, or you read, that it happens all the time doesn't make you an expert in that country's customs and ethics. There was no reason for the family to take offense. They were in the wrong, they needed to move. It's common courtesy.

Hey, not all foreigners are rude. Last time we took a train when we didn't have reserved seats we moved--- three times. I'm not saying I haven't seen my share of rude behavior, but it isn't all travelers.

Wow, Andre, I'm sorry - I know how you felt! There are a**holes of all kinds on trains. My situation involved a German woman on an ICE train from Frankfurt to Goettingen. I found my reserved seat a little late and she was sitting in it (the arrangement was 4 seats around a table). I said, in my best German, "Excuse me, this is my seat." She looked at me, looked at her companions, laughed, and asked me, "Do you speak English?" I said yes. I told her that she was in my reserved seat but she said, "Well, I'm here now and I'm comfortable, so I don't feel like moving." She told one of her female companions across the table to move, and she did! I sat across from her for an emotionally uncomfortable 1.5 hours, until I finally had enough and went to stand by the doors for the last 20 minutes or so. But that was the only bad experience I've had on a train, in 10 years of European travel.

You did nothing wrong Andre, you reserve a seat for a reason and if someone is in it you have every right to ask them to move. I've gotten attitude before doing it and it doesn't bother me one bit if they don't like it. They want to give me attitude? I'll give it right back.

To turn the tables on this...as an American tourist, when I too buy a ticket with a reserved seat, I expect to be able to sit in the seat that I am assigned. But, on several occasions, I have gotten to my seat only to find an Italian sitting there who waves me off and tells me I can sit anywhere else. This mostly happens when the train is not full of course. So, it's not just the rude foreigner that does this. Let's be fair.

I'm not sure that it's politically correct or acceptable to stereotpye like this. These types of statements are inflammatory and can get you labelled as a racist.

Not all Canadians are rude train passengers and all rude train passengers are not Canadians.

Racist? How does that apply in this situation?

Well, I had no intention of labeling all Canadians rude. I'm far from that. Of course mishaps happen with locals (Italians) too, but most of them will not create a problem.

As I wrote, the train was almost entirely full. It would make another intermediate stop. I could try to refer them to a conductor, but they were hostile from start. And the "plot to bully the daughter" infuriated me.

On a side note, I know Italians create trouble in US too. More than a handful of times I've read on Italian news outlets about youngsters verbally abusing clerks that don't sell them alcohol (because they are under 21) or those who read that "you can always argue with a highway patrol policeman that you were speeding because you are used to think in terms of kph, not mph" and actually try to justify running 100mph in an Interstate near Disneyland.

Back to foreigners in Italy, I do recognize some of its fame of a pickpocketing paradise is partially justifiable. This leaded me to an interesting situation: when living in Milano, I often didn't offer to help troubled foreigners dealing with tickets machines or looking for tram stops that had been moved when I could otherwise gladly haven done it because the immediate reaction of people protecting their purses or being uneasy. I'd still help if actively asked to. And I'm just a guy next door, 20-ish graduate student.

Racist? How does that apply in this situation?

Durtch -Looks like your laptop doesn't display the new sarcasm font. It's an add-in - you'll have to get it.

Ah! Found it! But my PC won't download it, won't digest it. Followed a link from Mark Sanford's webpage to StromThurmond.com and there it is.

Andre L.,

FWIW, as a Canadian, I didn't perceive any racist tone in your post. It was a good reminder that there can be "ugly" tourists of any nationality.

Cheers!