Spain / France - itinerary

If you haven't been to Spain or France, have you been to Europe before? I tend not to comment on itinerary but I will say that it looks way rushed to me. If you are driving so much (why?) why fly to Paris to spend only one day in the City of Light? Either too much time there if you really don't want to visit Paris, or way too little if you want to see any of it. Do the kids get any time to kick back and chill? Would they like a day riding horses in the Camargue, for example?

Hi Nigel,
Thanks for the quick reply. We are actually spending 3.5 days in Paris before leaving for Normandy. In regards to driving, the only driving we were thinking about was Barcelona to Avignon because it seemed like a leisurly drive and a cool way to see interesting places along the way. Same with driving from Avignon to Antibes.

Even for a small car, the daily rental cost will way more than double (maybe twenty vs fifty bucks per day ?) if you pick it up in Spain and drop it in France. I can't guess the cost for something large enough to haul your crowd and their stuff. Sometimes you can't even drop a large car rented in Spain in another country. Take the train from Barcelona to Perpignan and get the car there. Get the car in France. Pick up the car in France. France is the place to get the car. You can't drive from Barcelona or Perpignan to Avignon in a day and see half of the sights along the way. Normandy is way the heck of an extension of an already long track - - I'd spread the time around on the rest of the places. You're planning on flying from Nice to Paris. From the time you pull into the Nice airport, it's going to be close to seven hours until you're in a Paris hotel. Road time is eight hours if you drive. If you keep the same car (and still go to Normandy), do that now and save Paris for the end - - one long rental period is cheaper than two short ones with the same total number of days. Ditch the car when you finally get to Paris. Personal opinion: you've got too much time on the Riviera and not enough in the Provencal interior - - if you've seen one riviera town, you've seen them all.

Madrid Park Retiro is good for a few hours rest from the hetic city...and there is lots to see there...mimes, jugglers, etc. Grab a bite to eat in one of the sidewalk concessionaries. Royal Palace and Armory...lineswill be long, but move fast. Hours may be sporadic, depending on the official use. Be sure to see the armory located on the grounds...a building set apart, but well worth the time. Puerta del Sol..The Spot where it is at!! Center of the tourist area for sure. The Prado good if you want some more peace and quiet...art work is fantastic. Area around Sol good shopping district Gran Via Walk it and be impressed with the architecture. Sevilla - 2 1/2 hours from Madrid (Atocha) vis AVE ttrain...Snack bar on the train (sandwiches, soft drinks) Tickets will have the car number and the seat number on them. Really Discover Sevilla Tours - excellent, well run, small groups, not groups of 50 or more...Will give a great orientation to the city. Christoper Columbus handwritten journals are in the library there. The palace is fabulous as is the old jewish quarter. Easy city in which to walk. Really Discover Tours can give information on a fantstic Flamenco show...go early and sit near the front...small venue. Travel from Sevilla to Madrid 2 1/2 hours...and from Madrid to Barcelona about 3 hours. Much to see and do there for all ages Las Ramblas, Gaudi,Cathederal, etc. LONG way from Barcelona to Avingion..a very long way...
Nice is not one of my favorite places, but may be worth a visit if you want to see tne coast. I think I would not try to see as much in as short a time (yes, three weeks is a short time for this trip)...Less miles may give rise to more smiles.....

Meant to add two resources: www.madridman.com -- more than just Madrid... The Moon Guide To Spain -- amazon...great travel information for Spain.

Lance What a wonderful European trip for your family! And great to have chosen only 2 countries. As a mother of 3 boys, I have a feel for what is realistic. And it is important to do as you have done, into Spain and out of Paris. Here are my suggestions: IMHO you have too many stops. Glad you have 2 night stops but you need to be able to relax more. In 21 days you need probably at least 2 or 3 3-4 day stops. Not just for the kids who will rebell if they don't have it but for you also. Also each time you change it costs money, sometimes a lot of money. Although your itinerary looks good in a list, you have not taken into account travel time. It will take at least 1/2 day for each of your changes in destinations. Hard to realize but trust me on this. I will include an additional post on calculating the travel time. The major change would be to delete Madrid and Seville and change your initial arrival to Barcelona. Then take a day trip or 2 to the beach or a little further north for a small town feel. I think Barcelona will hold the kids interests much more than Madrid! I agree with PP who said too much time on the French Riviera. Specifically skip Antibe and add the time to Provence. Fly from Barcelona to Nice (no flights from Barcelona to Avignon). $53 pp on Vueling. 1 1/2 hours. Note major restrictions on weight and size of luggage. Read the fine print. See Nice, rent a car to travel around Provence. Read what other posters have to say. Good you are starting early to get your itinerary together! Bobbie

Thank you all so much for your replies. This has been very helpful. I guess I am trying to squeeze a lot into 21 days (although, it looked good on a list). Now, I have to figure out what to cut out. Bobbie, we cannot change our flights, so we have to fly into Madrid and out of Paris. I'm thinking cutting out the Riveria, which gives us an extra 2.5 days to spread out among the other places.
Does anyone know the easiest way to get from Provence to Paris (train, car, plane)? Thanks again!

Avignon (or, if you prefer, you can travel from Aix) is a cake walk by TGV to Gare de Lyon in Paris. Others will say to drive. I'd take the TGV. Nothing else will be as easy, fast, quick, or (with a wee bit of advance planning) cheap.

I think having more time in Provence will be a bonus for your family. Nice and most of the Riviera is very busy and you are doing lots of cities so some down time might be great. If you do have a car in Provence (which I think is a fun way to explore) might allow you time to go to the Carmague where the kids can go to a beach town and maybe see the flamingos and wild horses. If I remember it is a couple hour drive, but can be a lot of fun. If you get your car in Avignon you can easily drop it there and take the fast train to Paris, or you can do as someone else suggested and keep the car, do the Normady part of your trip and then drop the car at CDG before going into Paris. You would then have a road trip from Provence to Normandy but there is lots of French countryside and villages to explore. Have a great trip.

Lance,
Looks like a nice trip. You said you want to go to Normandy? Unless someone in the family has a strong WWII interest, you might want to reconsider. It's not like it's real scenic. If Mont St Michel, Honfleur, Rouen, etc are the goals, that's different. Cote du Azur is very scenic and there are some scenic hill towns. However, if a beach is the goal, you can easily drive from Avignon to St Raphael, St. Tropez, Cassis, etc. From Avignon, definitely take the TGV. Very convenient and fast. There is a Holiday Inn adjacent to the TGV station which was very nice in 2006. There is a 5 minute bus downtown and it is very convenient to highways into other areas of Provence.

David, we definatley want to see Normandy for WW II historical purposes. After reading everybody's comments, I think we stay the extra nights in Provence instead of on the Riviera and have some more relaxing time before heading to Paris. So, I guess my next question is what is the best place in Provence to "home base" from, so that we can see all the different villages. Avignon? Thanks again for all the great feedback.

Based on everybody's feedback, I've revised our itinerary: Day 1-2: arrive from US in morning; Madrid sight-seeing; sleep in Madrid Day 3: Madrid sightseeing; evening AVE to Seville; sleep in Seville Days 4-5: Seville sight-seeing; sleep in Seville Day 6: Train from Seville to Barcelona; sleep in Barcelona Days 7-9: Barcelona sight-seeing; sleep in Barcelona Day 10: train Barcelona-Perpignan; rent car in Perpignan; leisurely drive to Avignon; sleep Avignon Day 11-13: Provence sight-seeing; sleep Avignon Day 14: Return car and take TGV train Avignon-Paris; sleep in Paris Days 15-17: Paris sight-seeing; sleep in Paris Day 18: drive Paris to Normandy; sleep in Normandy Day 19: sightseeing Normandy; sleep in Normandy Day 20; sightseeing Normandy; drive to Paris; sleep in Paris near airport Day 21: fly back to US --- 2 nights in Madrid 3 nights in Seville 4 nights in Barcelona 4 nights in Avignon 4 nights in Paris 2 nights in Normandy
1 night in Paris near airport

I'll be the lone voice in favor of the Riviera. My kids love that area, and it's could be a good respite in the middle of all the sightseeing to just enjoy being at the beach. (It might be the only part of your vacation that feels like a real vacation!) A few other comments: You may have a hard time finding a reasonably priced rental car that will fit all 5 of you with luggage - unless you've packed really, really light. Driving may be more economical for you than paying train fare for a family of 5. I see no reason to cut out Normandy. Watching the movie "The longest Day" before going and hiring a guide can make it really memorable and engaging for your kids. We're surprised by just how much our 8yo learned/understood and remembers from our travel there. Although Seville is beautiful, we've heard from friends that certain parts at night can be quite scary, so make sure you have a plan on how you are going to get to your hotel since you are arriving at night.

Just a thought on this busy itinerary: Is it feasible for you to fly into Seville instead of Madrid? It would save you some doubling back (and time, and money) if you could start there and go Sev-Mad-Barc.