Spain - Andelucia - Morocco questions

Sorry, part of my earlier question was taken out. I was asking where the best place is to insert or go to Morocco? Thanks again!

We went to Tangiers from Tarifa. First timers so we took the tour (same price as ferry) and really enjoyed it. Even the carpet salesman was quite humorous. Will go further south and for a few nights the next time we are in Morocco. Your travel plan looks quite good and the route should work. You may want to take the train to Toledo, return to Madrid and then take the train south to Cordoba. I cannot help you with the other transportation questions, we had a rental car in the south.

Hi Bob: Thanks for the info. When you went to Tarifa, where were you leaving from & upon returning from Morocco, then where did you go? I'm trying to figure out where in my itinerary it would be best to jump over to Morocco. And thanks for the info re the train - appreciated.

We arrived in Tarifa from Granada. We left Granada in the morning, stopped in Ronda, then on to Gibraltar, finally arriving late in the day at Tarifa. Took the ferry over in the morning for the Tangier's tour returning in the evening to spend the night back at our hotel 'La Miranda' in Tarifa. We left most of our baggage in our room taking only day packs and passports, etc. The next day we drove to Seville. This was all done with a rental car. We did the opposite of your plans but either direction will work as well. Enjoy, Bob

(rambling on...) Fortunately it's incredibly easy (and cheap!) to skip the hassles and limitations that are in your face as soon as you step off the ferry in Tangiers. The only rub is that you can't do that as a "day trip" - but would you "do France" (or Spain or Italy - or Mexico) as a day trip? Here's how: Don't waste your time with the ferry, skip right over 90% of the hassles, and see the good stuff the day trippers never get close to. Fly. Most Americans don't realize that there are dirt cheap flights to Morocco from all over Europe on discount airlines (there's lots of them). You can fly to Morocco for as little as 25 or 30 Euro (of course, watch for all the typical gotchas that the discount airlines use to make their money). And the flights get you to the parts of Morocco that are most worth visiting: the ancient cities of Marrakesh, Fes and elsewhere. If you do your homework and research, you can easily fit in a short side-trip to Morocco from many places around western Europe - and it can even work as a good "bridge" connecting other parts of your trip in Europe. (continued...)

(finally finishing...) For example, a couple years ago, my wife and I were doing a Spain & Portugal trip, and we wanted to include a side trip to Morocco. I was able to work the flights such that we flew open jaws into Lisbon, and our return flight departed out of Paris (we wanted a few days in Paris at the end for sentimental reasons - 10 anniversary of our first trip there). This was using frequent flyer miles, so we had more restrictions than many folks. After we had done the bulk of the trip traveling around Portugal and Spain, we flew from Madrid to Marrakesh (about 70 Euros), spent a few days (in Marrakesh, Fes and some incredible ruins on the edge of the Sahara), then flew out from Fes to Paris (again, about 80 Euro on a discount carrier). The cheap flights made it possible to use Morocco as a convenient "bridge" to get to our return flight. Bottom line is, the best parts of Morocco require going beyond the coastal zone, and more than just a few hours (even Rick advises: "dive deep"). Marakesh, Fes, Meknes, the Sahara, and the other top sights there are as worth seeing as anything in western Europe, IMHO, and it just seems a shame that so many people take the ferry and spend a few hours drinking mint tea while pushing back at all the touts who want to sell you something, and never get more than a kilometer from the boat back to Spain. If the ferry day trip is what works for you, great, it may still be worth doing, but just keep in mind that there are other, better options (admittedly that's subjective) available. No offense intended towards anyone who enjoys the Tangiers (or Tijuana) experience. :) But there's definitely a lot more to see (and it's some really great stuff) if you go further. Have a great trip either way.

One more point - about how to allocate your time in Spain: We spent one night in Toledo (half a day before and half a day after) and it was probably enough. What mattered most to us was to spend the night there: during mid-day, the city was crowded with daytrippers; late afternoon, evening and morning, we had the place almost to ourselves and it was magical. We were OK with just one night there. We spent one night each ion Ronda and Arcos. Both were certainly worth seeing but we liked Arcos much better. A night each was enough. We did Cordoba as a long stop (day trip) between Madrid and Sevilla. It works easily that way (when using the fast trains) and we had all the time we needed to see what we wanted to see. Certainly no need for 2 nights there (probably not even one night). Sevilla is great but I don't know that I would spend 4 nights there on a short trip. You will need a car to see the hill towns easily - consider renting for a couple days out of Granada or Sevilla.

Hi David: Thank you for such in depth info. And yes, I realize that going to Tangiers won't really be Moroccan per say. I'm sure it's been Americanized, Canadianized & Europeanized. Truth be told, that was one of the reasons I thought I might back off from Morocco altogether - that it would just be too hokey. I figured that Tangiers will be filled with touts & people trying to hard sell you, which I am not especially fond of - that's why I've only been to Mexico once. (Again - a tourist destination - Puerto Vallarta.) I truly wish I had time to delve deeper into Morocco, but I only have 17 ngts in total for Spain, so.... If I were to go, I think I'd pass on the tour groups & hire a private guide like Rick recommends. That way I could emphasize that I want culture & not shopping. I'm not interested in wasting a day of my vacation shopping. Also, you trip sounds like it was fantastic & probably much longer in duration that mine. As for flying - never even thought of it, so thanks for that!
Again, many thanks David!

Ok great - thanks again Bob!

If you take the ferry to Morocco make sure that you get in the lineup to stamp your passport ASAP. We stood in line for most of the 45 minute trip due to tardinesss! The ferry is modern and comfortable. Check Rick's guide for eating in Tarifa, both places he recommended were excellent and the staff at 'the Miranda' were very helpful. If you have the time to visit Gibraltar it is worthwhile. You will enter a different world than southern Spain just by walking across the airstrip. You'll know that you're back in the commonwealth. Don't miss the aerial tram to the top. Hasta la Vista, Bob

Hi Bob: Gee, so much to think about. Obviously, my entire trip just won't be long enough! I'm mulling over the entire Morocco thing - I don't want to spend my entire vacation on a bus, train and/or ferry. It just seems to me that it's kind of out of the way. The most direct way to get to Tarifa is a 3.5 hr bus ride from Sevilla. I would do that IF I could head to Ronda directly upon return, but from what I have found out, I would have to return to Sevilla - again a 3.5 hr bus ride, then, catch another bus to Ronda which is another 2.5 hrs. As I have alloted only 1 ngt in Ronda, by the time I actually get there, it seems it would almost be time to leave. I had never entertained the idea of heading to Gibraltar, because again, just not enough time. I'm debating if I should take the 1 ngt I originally alloted for Morocco and just add it to Ronda. In all cases, I've gone with what RS has recommended in each locale. 2 ngts Toledo, 2 ngts Cordoba, 2 ngts Grenada, with the exception of both Madrid & Sevilla. He recommends 3 ngts for ea of those, but as I want to do a day trip to the White Hills & Segovia, I added a ngt onto ea. And, I just added Ronda because it sounds so nice. I guess my other option would be to cut Ronda & add Morocco???
Any thoughts on this Bob (or anyone else)? Thanks again.

You know, maybe I've sort of answered my own question! Maybe I should go to Sevilla & just add an additional ngt there & go to Morocco from there & return there to finish my Sevilla visit.

Consider the following. I think for many Americans, it's hard to get your head around Morocco. African, Islamic, Arabic - you expect it's a lot different from Europe. And it definitely is. But I like to make the analogy that in many ways, "Morocco is Europe's Mexico." Now that's a gross oversimplification to be sure, and there are ways it doesn't fit, but in many ways it does. Europeans flock to Morocco (it's VERY popular as a tourist destination - much more than I think most Americans realize). For Europeans, Morocco is cheap, hot and sunny, with great beaches, interesting food, and it shares some cultural and historic connections (as well as some great contrasts). It's definitely part of the developing world, and presents its share of challenges, some of which Europeans struggle with at home (illegal immigration, low cost labor, cultural diversity issues, etc.) and while visiting. A lot like the way the US and Mexico rub each other. If you were a European visiting the US, and your trip was taking you to Texas or southern California, you might be tempted to check out Mexico as a day trip. Hello Tijuana or Juarez! Sure, you can cross the border and experience "Mexico" in a bordertown, but that's usually a pretty crass, artificial experience, comes with a lot of hassles and limitations, and doesn't get you to the good stuff. Lots of folks visit the ferry bordertowns of Morocco (Tangiers, etc.) and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. But a few hours warding off the carpet salesmen and other hustlers doesn't really give you the chance to experience the country very well - which is a shame, because Morocco is an incredible place, so rich in culture, sights and things to do and see. (continued)

David had some good advice. i would say skip all the travel and potentially frustrating trip to & from Morocco just for one day in Tangiers. When we were there, we left Granada (beautiful) & took the bus down to Algeciras where we caught the ferry to Tangiers. It only took about an hour to cross-no probs. We stayed one night in Tangiers, b/c last train to Fes had gone for the day. We caught the train 4+hours down to Fes for 5 days early the next a.m.. On the return trip, we went back to Tangiers, trying to catch the ferry back to Algeciras (destination: Seville), but the seas had gotten too rough to sail & we ended up waiting 11 agonizing hours in the Tangiers ferry port until a boat sailed back around midnight (causing us to lose a day in beautiful charming Seville). All of that to say, save Morocco for when you can travel further into the country than Tangiers and really get a feel for the country. Enjoy that extra day somewhere you feel you might have "skimped" on (Rondo or Granada). Enjoy your trip!

also, I would say good luck hiring a guide that doesnt take you "shopping" in between historical sites-its how they make their $$-off your purchases (commissions, i guess). We hired a guide who was informative, but also a 'shopping guide'. On the plus side, with the guide we met some folks we never would have on our own, and i did get a terrific camel hide purse from the tannery and beautiful scarves i saw a man weave, but we were exhausted & cranky by the end of the tour when we felt like we were wallets being paraded about....

Hi Ashley: Well you certainly gave me something to consider that I hadn't before - the seas, which is pretty silly of me considering that I live on an island & have to travel between the island & mainland by ferry! Duh! I'm so glad you mentioned it, because even now, I remember I wanted to take one of the sea boats from Montesroso el Mare to Manarola in 5 Terre, Italy last Sept & couldn't, due to the high seas. I've just spent literally hours trying to figure out my itinerary & best train/bus routes & times, which included Tarifa & Tangiers. I had alloted a ngt in Tarifa for a trip over to Tangiers the day before my flight home - now I'm thinking (because of your reminder) how crazy that would be. If I were stuck for 11 hrs like you, I'd miss my international flight home. I started out with planning a trip to Spain - I think I should just stay in Spain & leave Morocco for another time when I can give it the time is so rightly deserves. I wasn't going to go to Barcelona this trip, but now am thinking I probably have 2 ngts to devote to that city - maybe even 3 if I skimp elsewhere - maybe I should be looking at inter-city flights next. Yikes!!! This is waaaay more work/confusion that it was when I went to 1) southern France, 2) Italy 3) London, Ams & Paris & 4) Greece. Maybe that's why I've procrastinated....
Again Ashley - thanks for such terrific advice...much appreciated.