Itinerary Help

Version #2 16-Sept - Paris (arrive ~9:30) 19-Sept - Depart Paris for Reims 19-Sept - Arrive Reims (day trip on way to Strasbourg) 19-Sept - Depart Reims 19-Sept - Arrive Strasbourg 21-Sept - Depart Strasbourg 21-Sept - Arrive Freiburg 21-Sept - Depart Freiburg (night train to Berlin) 22-Sept - Arrive Berlin 24-Sept - Depart Berlin 24-Sept - Arrive Dresden (day trip on way to Prague) 24-Sept - Depart Dresden 24-Sept - Arrive Prague 28-Sept - Depart Nuremberg 28-Sept - Arrive Nuremberg 29-Sept - Day trip to Munich for Oktoberfest 30-Sept - Day trip to Garmish-Partenkirchen 01-Oct - Depart Nuremberg 01-Oct - Arrive Salzburg (day trip on way to Vienna) 01-Oct - Arrive Vienna 04-Oct - Depart Vienna 04-Oct - Arrive Bratslava (day trip on way to Budapest) 04-Oct - Arrive Budapest
07-Oct - Depart BUD for PDX (~11:00) Thanks so much! Laura

Rule #1: Be honest with yourself. Count how many full days you have in Europe. Do not count your arrival or departure days. Rule #2: Be realistic.
Night train from Freiburg to Berlin? I don't even know where Freiburg is, but I bet it's in Germany. Does it really take 8-10 hours to take a train from one to the other? Have you ever tried to sleep on a train before - as your only sleep of the night? Hope so, 'cause if you don't sleep on trains easily (many people don't), you'll be a zombie for the next couple of days. Day trips to: Dresden, Munich and Salzburg...really? I'll leave the details to others, but I think you have twice as many places in your trip than you should, regardless of which itinerary.

We have been to Europe each year for the last 15 years three weeks each time and followed Rick's philosophy that "We will be back." Think of allowing a minimum 3 days per site especially for the grand cities you mention. Train travel now is not as easy as 15 years ago and while the journey is nice, after an hour or so it gets blurred and you either fall asleep and miss the scenery or you are too tired to enjoy your destination. We did night train Karlsruhe to Hamburg in a private room with bunks, toilet and shower for stick people, and slept OK (we knew we'd never sleep in the public seats) but $$$. Prioritize your list and go to "die bahn" and check all routes with a minimum of 30 minute transfer instead of the usual 5 minutes because trains ARE LATE and you will miss connections as you run up/down stairs with your luggage (travel light!). If you miss your train work out a Plan B for each site while you are at home on the internet.

Hi Laura You and your cousin have scheduled 2 whirl wind trips! You have done some research to figure out how to link the places you want to go. This is good. And also using open jaw flights to save time and money. Now add the time by train to your itinerary. Concerned about all of the stops enroute: looks like a drive by in trains. And the number of day trips. And only 2 night stays. Let's plot your itinerary on a calendar. Wincalendar.com is great. Add your itinerary and the train times : you can look them up on bahn.de, you don't have to pick the exact train yet. Then realize that these times are just the times you are on the train. So add the time to pack, check out of the hotel, get to the station, wait at the station, train time, time to hotel, check in, unpack, get familiar with public transportation, etc. So add an hour each end of the trip at least. So what do you see? Enough time to see your destintations? Or all of your time on the train? I think the train. It is so hard to match what you want to see with the time you have. Your itinerary is just not practical. So how do you cut a place? If you haven't bought your flights yet, you have some options. Look at outliers such as distance, cost, time,etc. Here are 2 ideas; cut Bratislava and Budapest and/or Paris. Your places seem to emphasize Germany, so spend most of your time there. PS. you can take a European discount airline from Paris to Berlin. Check out skyscanner.com, the airlines are dependable and cheap, but READ the FINE PRINT. And be sure the airports are near the city. Good luck and let us know how your itinerary proceeds.
Bobbie

Laura,, I am not being sarcastic, but completely sincere. I hope you enjoy your tour of Europeon train stations. For 21 days, which is really only 19 full days, seeing more then 5-6 places goes beyond whirlwind to blur. I am going for 25 days and will visit 4 places,, with a few daytrips. I may be old and boring, you younger with lots of energy, but you have less time then I do , and like what a dozen more places!?
You really will see almost nothing,, arriving, finding your accomadation , dropping your bags, then an afternoon of sight seeing, then a night, one more full day ( not in all cases) then gone the next morning, so many of your two night stays are only 1.5 days of actual time to see a place. That may be fine for some places, but some places need minimally 2-3 FULL days .... and thats still moving fast. To put it in perspective. Tours, even the RS ones generally spend 2 nights in a place, BUT, they have door to door transportation( bus) you do not, you will have to find train stations and hotels as you go, they have guides that can get them in many places ahead of the lines, or at least knowwhich sites to see and in what order to waste minimal time. You are goinng to get tired and fed up real fast.

Everyone else is right. So as to how to rework you intinerary: Chop it in half! Seriously, I'd either focus on France and southwestern Germany, or focus on Germany and the east. You could do Paris, Reims, Strasbourg, Freiburg, Munich, Alps, Nurnberg, Salzberg OR Nurnberg, Munich, Salzburg, Vienna, Budapest, Bratislava, Prague, Berlin (not neccessarily in these orders, just grouping together potential destinations in a way that makes sense) Even so I still think that's an "energetic" itinerary. Some of the places you list are day trippable from other locations. Nurnburg is a good day trip from Munich. Salzburg can be seen on your way from Munich to Vienna. Bratislava between Budapest and Vienna. Strasbourg from Paris to Freiburg. Long days, but possible. But I'd leave more time at the big cities you're going to.

Hi Laura-I would say that this is ambitious, to say the least. The next thing is-unless this will be your ONLY trip to Europein your lifetime, slow itdown a bit. JUST IMHO. Focus on what you see and do not worry about what you missed. The thing aoutyour trip-you have wonderful places chosen-they are ALL good, and a site or two in each will be beyond your dreams and expectations. You can still keep your open jaw ticket, minimize your destinations, and so enjoy a stop in a cafe, anextra meal, or whatever you like. But.....that being said, I also understand, having been to Europe many times, the need to "see it all" and not miss a thing. So, with that in mind, and all the great and solid opinions, enjoy your trip, andwhile in Prague, wander around aimlessly, be on the Charles Bridge at midnight, drink a beer, and say-I WILL BE BACK!!

I am going to agree with all posters here. I would not do your trip. But I will give you an idea of what you can do with your trip without creating an insane itinerary. But before I give you an idea, it seems that the big outlier here is Paris. Its kind of a hike to get to your next destination, and if you did a night train, you might not sleep as much as you think. I did a Germany, Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic trip a few years ago. We did Vienna (3 nights), Budapest (4), Prague (4), Rothenburg (2). At a pace where you can enjoy these awesome cities but with distances that were not too far apart (except for the Budapest-Prague portion, where we got on a train at 5am and arrived Prague 1:30pm). If you must go to Paris, well then Paris 4 nights: needs at leas 4 nights to do it justice Berlin 3 nights (catch a super early train from Paris to get here so you don't lose too much time to visit Berlin). Prague 3 nights Nuremberg 1 night Munich 3 nights (one day trip only, enjoy Munich while you can) Salzburg 1 night Vienna 3 nights
Budapest 3 nights If you are wanting to day trip to Nuremberg and Salzburg, you have too crazy of an itinerary to fit them in. So I suggest that you at least stay 1 night. Not a lot of people who frequent this forum are crazy about 1 night stays but in your case, stay the night or just skip the location all together; assume you will be back.

Thank you for all the comments! :) Your suggestions have all been very insightful. It appears we need to cut a few things from our trip. Unfortunately my cousin has already bought his ticket which flies into Paris and out of Budapest. My sister and I do not have our tickets yet and are considering adding days or flying out of a different airport, but it has been agreed we will all start our trip in Paris. One thing we are considering is flying from Paris to Berlin to avoid the long train ride. I will post our final itinerary when it has been set. Thanks again!

Just because a ticket has been bought does not mean you can't change it. The cost to change it might be a little or it might be a lot (possibly very high). Regardless, you should find out exactly how much that added cost would be, and weigh that extra cost against the real (but often ignored) "costs" you will incur (all the disadvantages) if you don't change your plans. Maybe it will turn out that it's not worth changing. But it may turn out to be worth eating the extra cost of changing the flight, if that allows you to have a better trip. You have to do the research, run the numbers and weigh your options. Consider the extra days that changing your flights would effectively "buy" you, also consider the $ savings that you would gain by not having to waste money backtracking or otherwise forcing your itinerary into one that works for your original flight arrangements, rather than making your flights help you meet your travel goals. I agree with others who point out that Paris is the outlier here. It looks like what you actually want is a trip to Germany and nearby countries to the east, so why waste time and money going to Paris and then getting from Paris to where you really want to go? Fly to somewhere in Germany and move on from there. One last tip: most of us are limited by either time (number of days we can be away) or money. Sure, we're all limited by both, but ultimately it's one or the other that's most critical. For students, retirees and others with flexible schedules, money is often the limiting factor. But for many of us, it's days that are in short supply. If you are limited to X days, it's often worth spending extra $ to maximize those days. Hope that helps.

Laura Yes, you do have a good idea in flying from Paris (if you keep it in the itinerary) to Berlin. Check out skyscanner.com which gives you all of the European Discount Airlines. They are much cheaper than the international airfares within Europe. These are reliable and safe airlines which Europeans use all of the time. You must read the fine print. So important. Everything costs extra, seat assignment, early boarding, a drink, etc. The restrictions for luggage include size, weight and number. And the cost if you are over is sometimes more than the cost of the ticket. Buy early as the longer you wait the higher the price. Make sure you know where the airport is you are flying into. Ryan Air for instance flies into Beauvais instead of Paris and it is a long way to Paris. It is so so hard to reduce the number of stops. It is good you ask the posters and trust us when we provide info. We have done this all wrong too, you know. Everyone has limited time and/or money, as someone mentioned. We hope we can advise you on using your time and money wisely. Keep us in the loop as you tweak your itinerary. Bobbie

As I looked at your second schedule, I noticed the "daytrips" on the way to somewhere else, such as Salzburg on the way to Vienna. I don't know if you got the idea from Rick Steves or not, but he preaches a similar style: wake up in town x, take the train to town y, several hours take the train to town z and find a room to sleep. This would be hectic for me, but I think it's also meant to be more of a way to explore a small region, not cover vast geographic areas. In other words, each train leg would be 30-45 minutes long, not several hours. I would personally avoid this tactic completely. It seems stressful to me. I know it's tempting to "squeeze in" Salzburg on the way, after all, the train may pass right through it! But you won't have time to really see it and will be hurried and rushed. I remember when I was in college, I took the night train from Paris to Venice. On the way back, I think we must have taken a day train, we had to transfer in Milan. We had about an hour layover or so, and we walked out to the street, looked around, and said, well, that's Milan! And rushed back in to find our platform. It was not an effective use of time (and it wasn't deliberate). I doubt having a few hours instead of one would have made a big difference. I know you're revamping your itinerary based on other posts, but I would just recommend you keep that in mind and avoid seeing someplace major on the way to somewhere else. Good luck with your planning, and have fun!

Laura for flying Paris to Berlin look at AirBerliner, and Tui fly, as well as Easyjet.. its often cheaper to fly then take a long train ride, even with extra charges for luggage etc.

Eh, I have to respectfully disagree with Becca, I get her point about being rushed, but I think doing Salzburg for the day, leaving early from Munich, heading to Vienna, is pretty reasonable. I know a lot of people here stay 2-3 nights in Salzburg and really soak it up - which is lovely - but I also think you can get a lot out of the "day tripping on the way" approach as well as long as you slow down for a few days once you get to your "main" destination of that leg. I utilized this strategy because we'd bought railpasses (looking back not the right choice) but since we had unilmited high-speed travel per day I structured a trip that really got the most out of that. For instance, Day 1, early train from Stuttgart to Nurnberg, spent 8 hours in Nurnberg seeing the basic sights, then went on 2 more hours to Munich. One travel day via Eurail, but a lot of train travel and sightseeing. Similarly, after 3 nights in Munich, we went to Salzburg for the day, then took the last Railjet back to Stuttgart. I personally find this approach to be less harried than one night stays in hotels, since that is often such a hassle. You won't see everything a city has to offer with this style but you can get a pretty good overview of some smaller places and it's cost-effective wrt time and money. I agree that flying from Paris to Berlin is a good choice and others have given good advice about it. My basic rule is that if the train ride will be more than 6 hours, consider flying. For me in S-town, door-to-door time frames for flying versus training to Berlin are about equal, but from Paris to Berlin you'd be saving a few hours and potentially money as well.

Hi Laura-Regarding Salzburg-I love Salzburg. I have done it a couple of ways. A day trip from Munich-easy and quick, spent all day, and have taken the last train out back to Munich. The last time, I left Vienna, took the train to Salzburg, stayed all evening and the next day, and then took the train into Munich-it happened to be the end destination for our trip. I have also spent 3 full days and 2 nights in Salzburg. Altho I always wanted to spend more time, one full day, taking the evening train to Vienna-I think that is your direction-is alot of fun. Stay focused on the old town-IMHO-the castle, a beautiful lunch and you will love it. Maybe stay an extra day in Vienna-I question Bratislava, unless it is important to you, and just head from Vienna to Budapest and spend your time in this amazing city. Just a thought!! Remember, however you do it, it will be a fabulous trip-and there ar places you will wish you had stayed longer, etc. but you can always go back!!

Laura, If you were doing this trip (your plan) solo, I would say do it minus Nürnberg and Bratislava. Which ever plan you adopt, can your travel mates keep up with this itinerary? I assume you're leaving Berlin early in the morning, at best that means getting into Dresden close to noon, 2 plus hrs, then presumably leaving Dresden ca. 1800 so that you'll arrive in Prague within 2 plus hrs...say by 20:00. That's only going to you an overview of Dresden, which is not what would recommend. If you're going to be in Freiburg, take the direct CNL train to Berlin, which gets you in before 0730. But if not, then I would do the Paris-Berlin night train, which I've done in the opposite direction. You're saying you want just two days in Berlin, the 19th and 20th? Skip Nürnberg and add that time to Berlin. As long you take the RJ train from Salzburg-Vienna and arrive there by 1300 or so, you've alloted ample time for Vienna but I would drop Bratislava. I recommend saving Strasbourg and Reims for another trip, Freiburg too.