Is there such thing as a non-touristy restaurant in Paris?

Hi Nick,
We ate at two restaurants in the Marais that I think fit your criteria even though they were listed in the guidebook--we were in Paris in January so maybe it was because it was off-season but we met people who lived in the neighborhood having dinner at both.

For good pizza, pasta, and salads consider Restaurante Sant Antonio (barely off due de Rivoli on place du Bourg Tibourg.)

On place du Marche Ste. Catherine we enjoyed a French bistro Le Marche.

This one is "touristy" but if you like falafel, L'As du Falafel is great!

Sure, Nick. Go to Place de la Nation and walk all around the circular Place, and up and along some of the side streets, such as Philippe Auguste and Voltaire. There are scads of restaurants and nary a tourist in sight. It is not a trendy area, it is a middle class neighbourhood, but even the middle class like to eat at good restaurants in Paris and they like it even better if they can do it in their own arrondissement.

That's really not very hard to find. Even restaurants in guidebooks--at least good restaurants--don't have posted english menus or a 90% tourist ratio or overdone meat. In fact in all my visits to Paris, even in restaurants that are well known among english speaking foodies, that doesn't happen. Now, certainly a place can appear suddently in Gourmet and the NY Times and a guidebook and become a big destination for Americans. So, there certainly are places where you'll hear lots of english but that does not mean they are going to become terrible suddenly.

Christy,

That makes sense is in encouraging.

I can tell you the funnest part of the trip planning has been choosing my black list for 6 nights in Paris. It's a challenge, which is what makes it so fun. I would say my ideal restaurant would favor local clientele with a younger edge.

Any other advice on the subject would be grand.

Oh, and my wife doesn't like bone marrow, pig bladders, etc. Any psychological coping techniques to prevent freak outs?

I agree with Norma...the best way to avoid a touristy restaurant is to stay out of the touristy areas. For six nights in Paris, you'd be better off renting an apartment, then you'll be in the heart of Paris without a tourist in sight. Paris is a city of villages grown together, and an square or "place" is almost a community in itself, with lots of good restaurants clustered around for locals. My favourite area is along a region spanning the boundaries of the 14-15 and 5-6-7 arrondissements. And as for "my wife doesn't like bone marrow, pig bladders, etc. Any psychological coping techniques to prevent freak outs?"....simple...don't translate the names from French!

Nick, you seem to have an image that Paris is made up of tourists and restaurants that either serve bad tourist food or strange food.

Paris also has Parisians who like to go out to eat. Just about all restaurants post their menus. Look for a nice Bistro where the owner is also the chef. They usually have hand written menus (in French) of what they're serving that day. They decide what to cook by what they can get fresh that day.

Of course, you'll have to know a little French to understand the menu but this way your wife won't be forced to eat pig intestines stuffed with calf's head (tete de veau).

If you're looking for an inexpensive Parisian restaurant where younger people go, I suggest wandering around the 5th Arrondissment near the Sorbonne.

And what's wrong with running into another tourist. They may have been looking for the same thing you are.

WEll, if we assume that a good way to avoid restuarants filled with other tourists is to avoid very touristy areas,, then I suggest you avoid eating in the 5th, 6th or 7th.. unless its a little hole in the wall along a quiet street. The area around the Sorbonne is filled with students and gazillions of tourists too.

Really, I don't see the point in worrying too much about avoiding other tourists,, some other tourists have good taste, and good information sources perhaps, and they find the good places to eat too, so avoiding a resto because there are tourists in it might be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I personally would avoid some very obviously "tacky" touristy places,, you know , like Rue Moffard with the 12 euro 3 course meals and the waiter who stands outside and trys to "lure" you in...LOL A good restaurant never has to have people outside trying to get customers.

"But how about these native bistros in the Marais like Chez Janou which Rick mentions is a great spot for locals?"Here's a question (for anyone, Nick, we're not picking on you, you ask questions that get us thinking): Once a place gets mentioned in a Rick book, is it ruined? You're going to see the rest of us there, right? But what's wrong with us, aren't we all tourists?No? So is it that there are two categories of tourists: tourists (ugghh), and then a class of tourists who are, somehow, of a more refined sensibility than those other tourists? And how does one tell the difference between tourists and, ummmm, tourists?I have no answers, just more questions. And I admit that I've thought in the same way, ugghh, touristy places. (One thought: If you want to avoid seeing us in your restaurant, don't use the methods we use to pick your restaurant. How do Parisians pick restaurants?)

Man, I am loving the comments on here. I would feel more comfortable writing a document to be read in court than here. You guys are tearing me apart. However, your semantic breakdowns will keep me honest as I construct future questions.

Frank: I do not have any strange fear of tourists. Remember: I'm speaking in relative terms.

I will say that the resources I tap into on the web will likely have an American Tourist bend because of the strategies I know to use. For example, a Parisian proabably wouldn't search on google for "authentic bistro 4th paris." And what I'm finding more and more is that many Parisians wouldn't ever post a review of their favorite neighborhood bistro on a blog or website. Which leaves me mostly to the online reviews from other Americans or British whose tastes and experiences in French dining are unfamiliar to me.

Let me rephrase the title of my original post: Is there a kind of subculture of restaurants in Paris which are not listed in guidebooks or on Fodors.com because they're widely unknown to outsiders? If the answer is some form of yes, then what tools might I use to find these places? I know that some popular places require reservations, but maybe there's a city guide sold only in Paris that would list some?

I do have a "relatively" strong grasp on French as I took a year of it in college and I speak Spanish as a second language.

Thanks to my attorney friends on the Helpline!

I have been told by two or three Parisians, independent of each other, that the French consider the le Guide Michelin (not the green one) to be authoritative and a good way (not the only way) for picking restaurants. I don't claim personal knowledge of what the Parisians do, and I'm not saying it's as simple as that. But I do know Michelin has been rating restaurants in Paris and France for over a hundred years now. Few Americans seem to be aware of this, despite my regular rants on this subject once a month here for a few years (I know...boring).

Ah, the lovely Guide Rouge. I recently read the Perfectionist: Life and Death in Haute Cuisine, the story about chef Bernard Loiseau's rise to *** and suicide in 2003. A whole chapter and much more was dedicated to Michelin. Quite a unique phenomenon in the history of Gastronomy.

I have been using the guide as a cross-referencing tool, but based on what Kent just said, I might need to reverse the order and use the guide as my anchor in the raging storm of Paris restaurants. Then if it DOESN'T show up on google, BINGO - Unknown! I'm sure that's oversimplifying a bit, but that might not be a bad strategy, eh?

I know of that book but have not read it, I think I will get it tomorrow. Think about it--doesn't it say something about the authoritativeness or influence of the ratings of le Guide Michelin, that a French 3-star chef killed himself because he thought his restaurant was going to be down-graded by Michelin from 3 to 2 stars (it wasn't but it was too late). In France, food matters--in a way that's difficult for us to understand. I own a copy of le Guide, Paris 2008 edition, PM me and we can talk.

NIck...here's what I do when I want to find a decent yet not too expensive restaurant. I ask at my hotel. I specifically ask for a nice but not expensive restaurant they would not only recommend, but might go themselves.

And remember, once a restaurant is in a guidebook, lots of tourists are going to go there. The secret is finding the places that haven't been discovered by the tourists and only known to the locals. The only way to find them is to ask a local.

Unless there is a specific restaurant I want to go to for a specific reason, I never choose restaurants before I go somewhere. I arrive and talk to the locals. They know best.

Think about it this way. I'm sure you know of some very good restaurants in Seattle that are not found in any guidebook, but if asked, you might suggest them.

"Is there such thing as a non-touristy restaurant in Paris?" Really? Most places to eat in Paris and every other city in the world are not known by tourists. I could show Nick places in Seattle he will likely never know. As for the Portland area members of this forum, I live near and eat in places you likely don't know of. And if you do, you likely won't ever visit. So how could your average tourist know? My point is that in a city like Paris, I and all of you know little to nothing about where to eat as a local. Hundreds of thousands or more people eat out in large cities every day as a rule. Where do you think they eat? Not where most of us do, will or could. How do you find them? Put your weak guidebook down, forget about websites like this and rediscover your feet.

Josh, I like your spirit. It is inspiring. There's a general vibe I'm getting: "Settle down and let your nose be your guide." Thanks for some great advice.

I haven't an intimate knowledge of Paris restaurants but I do know that I can't afford Michelin rated ones - even one star is usually out of my budget. LOL. You also get mainly "haute cuisine" in Michelin rated restaurants - you won't get many regional dishes, any home-style cooking etc.

A French menu can be a nightmare, even for those of us who speak and read French well. Mainly due to the fact that menu French is almost a language of its own - many of the ingredients (like the types of cuts of meat from various animals, particular types of sauce, types of fish) are unknown outside of France.

After some years living here I still carry a special dictionary with me published by Scribo. I hope it is not out of place to post a link to the publisher as that is the only place I have ever found it, other than at ridiculous s/h prices on Amazon and in one bookshop near the Louvre in Paris where I bought my first copy many years ago (and whose name escapes me - sorry).

It is not cheap but it contains a mass of information and has never let us down. We have a couple of copies that we lend to people when they stay and many end up ordering one online for their next trip.

http://www.scribo.fr/buy-dictionnaire-gastronomique-francais-anglais.htm

Despite the extraordinary amount of information it contains, it is a slim volume and will fit in a jacket pocket without making a bulge. If anyone has trouble ordering it directly, let me know and I'll see if I can help.

My personal French food hate is andouilles (chitterling sausages - ugh!) - they taste as bad as they smell.

Great discussion. If you go to the 11th district you'll find very few tourists and great small restaurants. Try Rue Oberkampf, or rue Jean Pierre Timbaud (section between Avenue Parmentier and Rue St Maur) for a large choice.

Generally speaking I really only avoid the Quartier Latin (St Michel), rue de Rivoli and the very central areas because the food quality is not worth the price.

Phil: The WH Smith bookstore on Rue de Rivoli?The other book of similar type is Marling Menu-Master for France. I have actually used Marling to figure out what I was eating, that I'd ordered by mistake. But there was one night in Rouen, when I wasn't sure I wanted to eat what I'd apparently ordered (ordered in French, of course, that was my first istake)--and I didn't look it up in Marling because I didn't want to know.

Sometimes, Kent, it's best not to know...:)

LeRelais de Venise or as the Parisians call it L'Entrecote
271 Boulevard Periere right @ Porte Maillot,

L'Heure Gourmande
22 Passage Dauphine
6th Arrondisment

You could also use your search engine and type in Paris dining blogs and see what comes up.

Hi Nick,
I'll be the first to admit that I don't always agree with Rick Steves restaurant choices but we've found that sometimes looking for a restaurant in the guidebook leads us to a neighborhood or square that we wouldn't have discovered otherwise (i.e. place du Bourg Tibourg, rue des Rosiers, or place du Marche Ste. Catherine.) As you suggested, some of these restaurants really are "off the beaten path" and not always found by tourists.

As many others have already pointed out, we've found that our best restaurant experiences have been recommended by a local--just ask!

I challenge you to eat lunch or dinner at one of the restaurants that I recommended in my post above and then report back as to whether or not it met your criteria...you might be surprised.

Consider going to Paris with fewer expectations and being pleasantly surprised as you discover your own "finds."

I recently ate at Chez Gladines: 30 rue des Cinq-Diamants, Paris 75013.

It was untouristy, cheap, very filling and in a neat neighborhood that had a intersting, almost village-like feel. The staff there were full of character.

Oh, and the potatoes were cooked in duck fat. Good times!

Try Roger la Grenouille on rue des Grands Augustins. (6th) My husband loved the steak he had here although he just gets med-rare. I loved everything I had there. It's a small, cozy place with excellent food. Also La Rotisserie on Quai Tournelle is a place you might like.(5th)

Kent, you can recognize me "uuggh tourist" by my fanny pack! LOL!!!

Kent thats right, I forgot about that! In the UK my uuggh look will be an Aloha shirt and ballcap!

I suppose the gold standard for restaurant guides is the Guide Michelin (Red guide). BTW, it lists many restaurants that have zero stars but that are good. For a bit more "attitude," If you can read French, buy a copy of the Guide Lebey. It is updated each year. And maybe everyone here knows about the Chowhound website? chowhound.com, click on the country of your choice. I have frequently chosen restaurants based on recommendations there, and they are usually spot on.

Hi Nick,
I read about a restaurant called Auguste this week-end--also La Chocolaterie de Jacques Genin sounds great too--might be worth your consideration!

Financial Times Article--You Must Try These

And just because a restaurant has Michelin stars doesn't mean you want to eat there:

Three Star Restaurant Closed

Thanks for the suggestion, Sharon. Looks really good!

Frank: I just read that about that a couple days ago. How's that for a blip on the '10 Michelin radar?

Try l' Ambassade d'Auvergne, we have been there 2 times, didn't see any other tourists, a local took us there. It is in the Marais district, very good and not too touristy. www.ambassade-auvergne.com.

enjoy

Doris
Shoreline, WA