Germany and Switzerland by car or train?

First, you might have more luck finding schedules and fares on your own from Frankfurt. From the airport, FRA, the fare to Bacharach is €10,50 pP, €21 for two. You can do Bacharach to Beilstein, by train and bus, for €24 with a 2 person Rheinland-Pfalz-Ticket. Another €24 Rheinland-Pfalz-Tickel will take you from Beilstein to Karlsruhe Hbf. From Karlsruhe you can go from inside the Bahnhof to Baden-Baden by train or from in front of the station by streetcar for €5,50 each. €35 for the whole day's trip. Baden-Baden to Staufen will cost you €29 for both of you for a Baden-Wuerttemberg-Ticket. Actually, if you stay in Baden-Baden, you should get a Konuskarte, which will allow you free, unlimited travel in the Black Forest, including to Staufen. So, all of you travel from FRA to Staufen for how many days(?) will cost you €109 (€80 with the Konuskarte). You can hardly buy gas for a car, let alone pay for all those days of rental, for that.

Since your route is "proposed", a couple of suggestions: Baden-Baden is good for gambling and spa treatments but is not at all a "Black Forest" village - it's a big bustling place. Rick-pick Staufen is pleasant and attractive but not really that special, and very small and very sedate - almost geriatric, I'd say, with little to do there. (I think Rick likes it as a quiet alternative to Freiburg rather than as a destination.) And both of these towns require lengthy connections (by bus from the Baden-Baden station into B-B proper, by train from the Bad Krozingen station; you have to change trains 2-3 times to reach B-K from B-B.) Assuming you planned to spend 2-3 nights combined in the BF, I would instead suggest staying somewhere more Black Foresty and scenic. Gengenbach is a gorgeous old walled town with old towers, half-timbered houses, and cobblestones on the famous Black Forest Railway line near Offenburg, south of Baden-Baden. Daytrips by train to other BF destinations, like the high black forest towns (Hausach, Hornberg, Triberg, Villingen and Schiltach) using the BF Railway from there are easy - and FREE - with the Konus card you get from your hosts in G'bach: http://www.gengenbach.info/en/tourism/ http://www.blackforest-tourism.com/konus I would also suggest Cochem (another gorgeous town with narrow cobblestoned streets and ancient buildings) over remote, unremarkable, teeny-tiny Beilstein, which has no rail station - you'd need to use the bus for Beilstein. You can catch a river boat to Beilstein from Cochem if you want to look around there briefly and have a nice cruise.

I would second the train travel instead of car with your limited itinerary. Also, I would second Cochem, it's a great place to visit. Try the rot pfirsch likor (Red peach liquor), It's my favorite, and the matching jam is delicious too. As far as time of year, Sept still has the summer hours, which won't always be the case in May. Sept has shorter days and the farther south you go, the more you feel the bite in the air. Fall in Wine country is one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen. May tends to be cold and rainy. So i guess I would vote for September. :)

I'd stick with car for greater flexibility and opportunities to make on-spot tops without having to wait other train etc. Roads are easy to navigate in the cities you mentioned, a diesel car (ask for one) is very economic (they do like the equivalent of 50mpg or more for a sedan or station wagon), and will make your trip more fun. May will have approximately 2 hours of extra sunlight per day than September.

Auto rental vs train travel, nothing gets people fired up like this question. I would use both for an itinerary like this. To me a car on the Rhine and Mosel are best. With a car Beilstein is great... otherwise I would definitely stay in Cochem. Take the train from BF area to Interlaken to avoid huge fees for dropoff charges in another country. Trains, lifts, bus is best for Switzerland. September is great in wine areas. We also had nice weather in Alps last week in September last year.

I am a train person, but I don't want to get into any arguments about what way is best, as that is more about personal travel taste, plus I have no idea what a car costs other than the price of gas. (about 8-9$ a gallon) For seasons, I would take May over Sept. The weather is often nicer, the flowers everywhere are gorgeous, and the days are longer. It is hard to predict the weather, but Germany barely had one day of rain this past May. So far this Sept. it has been more cool than warm, with lots of rain. Next year might be the opposite.

I would vote for Sep. I was in the Bernese Oberland in May once (end of May) and we had fantastic, sunny weather, but May IS typically known as a rainy time of year there (esp earlier in the month). I think with September, your chances of good weather are better. It's also a little quieter than in the summer/fewer crowds, etc. Re: train vs. car; totally sbjective and I've done both.....but if I had to choose, I'd say train. It's just so efficient in that part of Europe (in typical Swiss and German efiicient/punctual fashion!). You pass by such nice scenery, can relax, etc. Of course the advantage of car is that YOU make your schedule, you can stop whereever and whenever you'd like, etc. But I just find the trains there so easy, efficient, punctual and comfortable/clean, so that's the option I prefer. The post above re: this "endless debate" is spot-on! People have VERY strong opinions on this subject! Good luck w/ the trip planning.

With the help of Rick Steves Guide and his "forum family", I have been able to enjoy fabulous trips to France and Italy. I anticipate the same with all of the thoughtful suggestions you have given me on this one. Thank you all so much for your time and expertise.

FYI, the German schools are in session in May. In September, they don't start up again from summer break until mid-Sept, so many Germans are still taking vacations (traffic), there's more teens hanging at the bus stop, etc. in the first two weeks of Sept.

School vacations are at different times in the different states. Bavaria is always last, but other states may be back in school by the 1st of Aug. or the middle of Aug. etc. It pays to check the school schedules of what ever state you are visiting. Fall vacations will be early for those who had early summer vacations, beginning the 1st of Oct. http://www.holidays-info.com/School-Holidays-Germany/2012/school-holidays_2012.html

So do I understand correctly that the recommended train version of the proposed trip be as follows? Frankfort train to Baccarach. Baccarach /1 night. Rhine River cruise to St. Goar & train via Koblenz to Cochem. Cochem/2 nights incl. Burg Eltz & return. Train to Gengenbach via Trier, Offenburg & Mannheim. Gengenbach/1 night. BF train to Freiburg via Donaueschingen. Freiburg/1 night. Then train to Interlaken via Basel & Luzern and train on to Wengen via Lauterbrunnen. Wengen/ 4 nights. Train to Zurich w/ flight to Frankfort. Please advise.

"Train to Gengenbach via Trier, Offenburg & Mannheim."? That's not what I suggested. You're starting in Cochem, right? Go by regional train from Cochem to Koblenz to Karlsruhe. You might have to make an intermediate stop after Koblenz in Mainz. All of this can be done for €29 (€14,50/P). I originally said €5,50 each to Baden-Baden, but if you want to go to Gengenbach (which would be nicer), buy a Baden-Wuerttemburg ticket from an automat in Karlsruhe (another €29) and go by regional train via Offenbach to Gengenbach. Karlsruhe to Gengenbach would be €15,80 each, so the B-W ticket pays a little. Trier to Offenburg would likely go through France and cost more than using a Bayern-Ticket through Germany. Also, Offenburg to Gengenbach is an eight minute trip up the river. No need to go through Mannheim. P.S. Can't believe you can spell Frankfurt or Bacharach, but you nailed Donaueschingen ;o).

That's good! Kind of following Rick Steves's route, I was going to Bacharach first and then Cochem and continuing counterclockwise around via Trier (?) and Saarbrucken to Mannheim (per Rick's train map) and continue south. I believe you are suggesting Cochem first and then I can go to St. Goar, river cruise to Bacharach and continue south which makes sense. Am I right?

Be careful to plan carefully if traveling to the Berner Oberland in May. You may find some - nay many - attractions / hotels / lifts closed for maintenance / repair / holiday / seasonal closure depending on the exact dates.

Also, would it be better to take train from Bacharach to Gengenbach, spend night, and take BF train via Triberg to Freiburg or to take train from Bacharach to Frieburg, spend night and take Rick's train & bus joyride to St. Peter & St. Margen as our BF "experience"?