Dressing for France and Spain

Light weight long pants would be preferred. You will see shorts, especially on other tourists, but you have to have knees and shoulders cover when going into the churches and that include the kinds.

"but you have to have knees and shoulders cover when going into the churches and that include the kinds." I'm not sure about Spain, but I'm pretty sure that rule doesn't apply in France.... although I haven't been to Paris in a few years. If it's hot, wear what you find comfortable.

Nobody will care about shorts in museums, except people who are so shallow that I wouldn't worry about. And as I wrote in my last post, I'm pretty sure that shorts are OK in France. When I visited Strasbourg a few weeks ago on a particularly hot day, shorts were quite common. I have zero experience in Madrid.

I just traveled with two Spaniards all over southern Spain and Madrid. My friend (male) wore khaki shorts, polo, white athletic shoes and short white socks. My friend (female) wore a short, sleeveless dress. We never had a problem at any tourist location, including museums and cathedrals. I saw no signs posted anywhere suggesting that knees and shoulders had to be covered.

We were in Paris last year and Madrid this year. We wore "normal" travel clothing and never felt over- nor under-dressed. In Madrid, the older locals dress very, very conservatively (men and women both out strolling in suits). But that doesn't carry forward to younger generations, who wear tight jeans (just like here), sneakers (just like here), a variety of t-shirt type tops (just like here). However, churches do have their own dress code - knees and shoulders covered. Good trousers and shirt for dinner - well, it depends on what type of restaurant, but, yes!

Spain does enforce a dress code in some churches. In fact, the Barcelona Cathedral is the only place I've actually seen a sign spelling out the dress code - knees, shoulders and midriff covered. Madrid isn't a great church stop though, it's way too new, as a city, to have anything really interesting. We were followed by a thief in Madrid (either that or were getting tailed by an undercover cop). He walked when we walked, stopped when we stopped, all without trying to look conspicuous. I suppose he was trying to figure out how to get at our neck wallets. I finally stopped, turned toward him and stared straight at him. Without looking directly at me, he promptly took a turn down a side street and disappeared.

Since I initiated started this thread, I thought I would report back on what I saw in Madrid and Paris, from the point of view of what people wore. The answer - in a nutshell - is this: anything and everything. It was about 90 degrees on average in Madrid, 75 in Paris. For myself, I wore mostly khaki knee-covering shorts and polos. At dinner time I'd wore a long pair of slacks. But when I first got to Madrid, I carefully noted not only what tourists wore but also madrilenos. Now it may well be that Spanish men and women dress very stylishly at the nightclubs. But I can tell you that for the week I was there (and the week I was in Paris) I saw very, very casual wear: shorts and t-shirts everywhere. I have never seen so many Superman and rock n'roll t's in my life. Frankly, I felt like I was at the beach most of the time. And I can tell you that this was not only tourists but also the locals. The only thing I did not necessarily see a lot of was running shoes. But there were still a fair amount. As to entering cathedrals in either Madrid or Paris, wear whatever you feel comfortable in. There are no "clothes police" there. In fact, no one even really looks at you. In a sense you are invisible. By this I am not advocating you should dress like a slob. I think most people were dressed appropriately. But if you think somehow someone is paying any attention to you or what you're wearing, you'd be wrong. I was never turned away anywhere nor was I even much noticed. (I listened carefully for accents. It wasn't just Americans dressed down. It was all nationalities AND locals). I didn't bring any t-shirts with me and I was reluctant to wear the one Madrid t-shirt I bought. By the end of the 2nd week in Paris, I said the hell with it and just wore it.

I am not a big shopper either here in the States or when I travel. My wife and kids, however, never met a gift shop or souvenir stand they did not like. :-0 For myself, I bought (to my own surprise) a couple of T-shirts, one each from Paris and Madrid, a triptych of one of my all-time favorite paintings, "The Garden of Earthly Delights" (at El Rastro flea market) and a fascinating book called "The History of Spain." I confess that my knowledge of Spain's history was shaky at best. But now having read both the History and James Michener's "Iberia", I feel like I have a better idea of this turbulent country's past. BTW, the Prado is - to me - every bit the equal of the Louvre. The Louvre, of course, has more antiquities. But the Raphael's and Rubens' in the Prado? Incomparable. As far as the difference in crowds, no contest. While Madrid had lots of tourists, it felt empty by comparison to Paris. We went through Versailles palace as one big lump of shoved cattle. Ditto the Louvre. Couldn't even get into the Catacombs without a three-hour wait. And Montmartre (Sacre Coeur and Moulin Rouge) is a flat-out party at night. Lastly, we didn't go to Toledo. But if you want a day trip from Madrid (75 minutes by bus), you cannot beat Segovia.

Jim: You just proved what some of us have known to be true for some time now: Especially among younger people and even those under 40, there really isn't much of a difference in dress compared to what people wear here. Shorts? Check. Tees? Check. Chuck Taylor's? Check. Adidas Spezial? Check. Asics slip on sneakers? Check. Skinny jeans? Check. Ray Bans? Check. Gingham shirts? Check. Urban myths from yesteryear about Europeans not wearing sneakers, shorts, or tees still rampant on this board? It's getting better. You also proved that one should simply wear whatever they normally wear and what makes him comfortable. There are exceptions, of course, as already noted for cathedrals in Italy, senior citizens, etc. Oh, and the high fashion you see in Madrid and Paris is also seen in New York and Toronto, so Europe doesn't really have an edge in fashion (compared to Des Moines and Boise they do, however). Agree with you on the Prado. Segovia was special to be sure, but Toledo has to be ranked much, much higher on my list of must-sees. Don't know if you made it to El Escorial, but wow...what a place!

I had initially planned for two day trips from Madrid, Toledo and El Escorial. Then my kids got interested in Segovia, we were concerned that Toledo might be overcrowded and we realized that there was plenty to see in Madrid. So, alas, we dropped El Escorial and went only to Segovia. But as noted, it was awesome with a 2000 year old Aqueduct (no mortar), Alcazar and Catedral. My kids were totally blown away. Toledo? Well, that along with Barcelona (at least) are good excuses to return. :-0

A tour guide in Madrid told me that the three best museums as far as good variety of high quality works are the Prado, the Hermitage in St Petersburg, and the Art Institute of Chicago. Subjective of course but there you have it.

I'll add to that list – the AGO in Toronto is pretty spectacular, and the Nelson Atkins in KCMO has a Caravaggio that's really quite spectacular - it's such a great art museum for just a mid-sized city.

There were two museums on our list in Paris, namely the Musee d'Orsay and the Musee du Quai Branly that we did not get to see. Before I left home, I was all but chanting, "I will not get museum fatigue. I will not get museum fatigue." Alas, by the time it came to see these two museums, I just could not do it. They could have been giving away Manets and I would not have gone in without a court order. Try though I might, after a while I just get tired of walking around in museums. And the antidote to this is a visit to the Tuilieries and/or Jardin du Luxembourg. So, another reason to go back to Paris.