D Day Civilian deaths

Norma: Interesting Normandy stats. The book title is?

The WW2 casualties are staggering, it's been estimated that the total number of people killed in WW2 world-wide, civilians and soldiers, 1937 - 1945, was about 60 to 80 million people (those numbers per Wikipedia).

That includes 8 to 10% of the total population within the 1937 German borders killed.

The range is so wide mainly due to uncertainty re the number of Chinese killed 1937 - 1945.

Good post Norma,, its so easy to forget what we all should remember,, war was hard on EVERYONE.

Thanks for this post Norma. Sobering information that should be told. In addition to the Allied soldiers and the civilians that were killed or wounded, I often think of the Resistance fighters as well. Such bravery during that time,

Norma, This is very interesting. I had no idea the number of civilians killed was so large, and I've read a fair amount about WWII. I wonder why you hear so little about this, in contrast to our own times where civilian deaths get so much publicity and so many people use these incidents for political reasons. The citizens of Normandy are genuinely grateful to to this day to the Allied servicemen who liberated them, despite the high number of civilian casualties. Yet today we seem unable to accept any civilian casualities. I'm not sure what to make of this. It's certainly appropriate to grieve for civilian casualities and to avoid them at all cost. But is it realistic to expect zero civilian deaths?

70,000 French civilians in total lost their lives in the second world war. Also, as well as the 35,000 who died just before and during the Normandy campaign, as many as that were injured. Sorry to keep on about this but these are astonishing statistics. I will be buying the book this week.

I don't understand the comment about not expecting zero casualties. It is out of context & puzzling.

Kent, the book is "D-Day: The Battle for Normandy" by Antony Beevor, published by Viking. There was a long review of it in yesterday's (Nov. 7) Globe and Mail, which you can probably access on line.

I personally hate the term "The Good War" as used to describe WWII. Although not as deadly for soldiers as WWI, for the civilians trapped between the opposing forces, it was by far the most lethal and destructive conflict in history. Just ask a Pole if he thinks WWII was a "good war". Off my soapbox I step...

Norma, thank you for the book title.

What I meant about zero casualties is to read the press today and the condemnation of the US or Israel, for example, when a civilian is killed, it sometimes sounds like some people think you can fight a war with no civilian casualites. Everyone is a tragedy, to be sure.

I just find it so interesting that there were so many civilian casualties in WWII and you never hear about them, other than the concentration camps. It's certainly different than today.

I once saw pictures of St. Lo after D Day. There was nothing left of the town. I talked to a German resident of Werms who said the town was basically destroyed during WW II. Today if you go to either place, it might be hard to understand the destruction that happened. I've been to Verdun and the same story is repeated there....mindless destruction with huge civilian casualties in addition to the thousands who died in the battle. Veteran's Day is day to remember the soldiers, and well we should. Their sacrifice 90 years ago, 60 years ago, and every week since then should be remembered and honored. But maybe we need a day to pause and remember those who were just there, tying to live while the super powers of the day fought it out. Thanks Norma for raising my consciousness.

Well said, Terry

One of the strongest memories I have of my first visit to Berlin in 1990 was a photograph in a church, of the city almost totally levelled by Allied bombs. In the centre of the photo an elderly woman is sitting on the ground amongst the rubble, cradling a young child, not another soul is to be seen, and there is nothing left taller than a hunk of concrete. I have never been able to forget that.

Carroll, you do not hear about civilian deaths because you live in the US, which didn't have any, except at Pearl Harbor.

If you live in a country that has civilian deaths in a war it is of course much more a part of your history and is remembered and spoken about. I am sure the British remember this vividly, as do the French, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Italians and yes, the Germans too. Go to Dresden and see if this is talked about or not. Go to Coventry and see if it is forgotten. I don't think so. Or Viet Nam? See how many civians are still suffering from Agent Orange? The thousands of birth defects it caused. It just doesn't make the news in the States.

When was the last time you saw a documentary about any of these things, unless you watch the History Channel? They are on all the time here in Germany. I never knew about the Agent Orange thing til I moved here. I never knew very much about the London Blitz or the bombing of Dresden - a city filled with tens of thousands of refugees, or that when the Allies flew over Frankfurt they dropped over a million bombs on the city center in just one night. The WW2 had to come to an end and awful things were done to end it. Hitler had to be stopped at any cost and this was all he understood, but the civilian population in all the countries paid for it dearly.

That is what war is about. Horrid deaths and destruction, especially if you are in the middle of it or having to fight in it.

I understand that many more French died during the liberation than in the German occupation. It is also the case that there was a tremendous amount of property destroyed as the Allies landed in Normandy and advanced to Germany. Towns like Caen, Brest, Le Havre and Cherbourg owe their current appearance to the fact that they were flattened during the liberation. The same is true of towns in Belgium and the Netherlands.

The same happened as the Russians advanced on Berlin. Go to Wroclaw today and you see a charming medieval city, but it has all been built since the destruction of the Second World War. Wroclaw used to be in Germany, and its name was Breslau. Now it is in Poland, and many Germans were displaced from the area after the war.

There are very few real winners when it comes to armed conflict. The United States "won" the Second World War because it did not suffer damage to its infrastructure and did not have the same displaced populations. It could more easily switch from wartime to peacetime production.

It is hard to get the accurate number of casualties partly because of the various charts which get their numbers from differet sources. Of course WWII was the worst due to several factors including it being a longer war, weapons technology, more nations involved and of course the genocide factor. More military deaths and civilan deaths in WWII. Percentage wise the civilian deaths far exceeded the military deaths in WWII whereas in WWI the opposite was true.

Jo mentioned agent orange in Vietnam. Ironically this past weekend we had our 40th Vietnam reunion and this subject came up and even though many soldiers were affected by the spraying of this chemical the civilian population suffered a lot worse. War is tough on everyone but unfortunately it has always been with us and always will be. I wish that were not so.

Jo, You are probably correct, though I have heard a lot about Dresden and the suffering of British citizens during the blitz. I just find it so odd that with all that has been written about D-Day, so little is said about casualties suffered by the citizens of Normandy. I guess because it was such a huge miltary operation with so many acts of heroism that led to the eventual victory by the Allies in the war, the civilian losses in Normandy were forgotten, at least in the US. That is a shame.

I think times have changed because there seems to be so much in the press today about civilian casualties in the Middle East.

I also think it's a tribute to the people of Normandy that they have focused on commemorating the bravery of the service men who liberated them rather than on the casualties they suffered.

I’ll have to disagree that civilian casualties in places like Afghanistan, Iraq, or the Palestinian territories are widely reported here. On the contrary, these casualties are rarely reported in the general media in this country. And, I agree that war is tragic…it should never be described as good or just.

I think everyone would agree war is tragic. But do you really believe defeating Hitler was not just, Michael? Maybe you shouldn't call wars good, but sometimes they are necessary and just.

I don’t recall mentioning Hitler, nor did I share any beliefs around whether or not defeating Germany was justified. I will simply say that it seems interesting for any nation to maintain a just war doctrine or school of thought when civilian populations are intentionally targeted for destruction.

Sorry I misinterpreted you, Michael. I thought you were saying all wars were unjust. I think a war can be just, but that does not mean every action taken during the war is just. Needless to say, wars are complicated, and this is not really the forum for an in depth discussion.

"I understand that many more French died during the liberation than in the German occupation." Probably because the active military phase of the occupation only lasted a few weeks, but the liberation lasted several months.

And I believe we have yet another example of Godwin's law in action...

It is all very interesting reading the comments here on this topic. There is no question that WW II in Europe was "the good and just war," --even though I myself don't like using that expression.

It was good and the cause was right in that Nazism had to be eradicated, no question about it.

The German military occupation lasted exactly 4 years, from June 1940 to D-Day, and the liberation of Paris took place by 24-25 August 1944.

It is good and sobering to be reminded as A. Beevor does in his book that French civilians were victims
caught in the fighting. This part of the history has been left out, some of the reasons as mentioned above.

Carroll: No need to apologize at all…it is very complex, indeed.

I immediately thought of Godwin’s Law as soon as I saw the expired fascists name!

Sort of on topic, I thought I might recommend a very good film (and book) about the somewhat forgotten tragedies suffered by the women of Berlin immediately following that great city’s liberation. Approximately 130,000 German women were brutally raped by the conquering Russians…see the German film “A Woman in Berlin.” Very bad things happen in war.