Advice re 8 days in southern Germany

3 nights each in Rothenburg and Fussen are way too much in my opinion. I'd recommend trying to fit Wurzburg and Heidelberg in there somewhere.

OK, thanks, Rik. We were planning to travel from Bacharach to Rothenburg via Wurzburg, but you'd suggest staying there? If we cut it back to 2 nights in each of Rothenburg and Fussen, which would be the preferred option - Wurzburg or Heidelberg?
I was also torn between Bacharach and St Goar, having read pros and cons for each. Do you have any thoughts there?

The problem with car and three couples, Kathy, is trying to get 6 folk and (maybe a little) luggage into one European sized auto. 2 decent sized cars, maybe (again remembering the (maybe a little) luggage). If you go for something big enough to fit all of you and the luggage you may find it the most expensive choice and difficult to get down narrow lanes.

Your basic concept is good - 3 nights in 3 base towns in separate regions of Germany. I wouldn't necessarily "lock in" on any particular one of those towns quite yet, however. So much depends on travel method and accommodations choices. By train, often the best choice moneywise and my recommendation, stay near a train station for outings. This isn't hard if looking for hotel rooms, but staying 3+ days in a place makes one or more apartments much more feasible and your stay more comfortable and more economical. St. Goar for sure has a number of places with multiple apartments that are well located for hopping on trains. I've had great apt. experiences at Walter Huppertz' (4 apt.s) and Annemarie Geissler's (2 apt.s) apartments on this page, which lists many more. (Note: St. Goar-Kernstadt is not a suburb - Kernstadt means town center.) http://www.st-goar.de/586-1-fewos.html St. Goar is better for train users; there's a ferry that connects you to a train station on the opposite side of the river. B'rach has a rep for train noise. Also, for outings north of St. Goar, a train daypass, the VRM mini-group ticket for regional travel by small groups up to 5, is available for 20 Euros. It covers the area from Oberwesel north to Remagen on the Rhine, and the Mosel to Bullay. A 3-day version is 40 Euros. You can't get use this particular pass south of Oberwesel. To visit the Rhine south of O'wesel or Trier on the Mosel, use a Rheinland-Pfalz daypass instead, which covers more ground and costs more.

With one or more cars, you'll have more accommodations choices. Both Bacharach and St. Goar, tiny though they are, have "suburbs" like St. Goar-Werlau, and Bacharach-Steeg. You might like St. Goar or Bacharach, but you might find accommodations in one of the former places or, say, in Oberwesel or in Oberwesel-Engehöll that are perfect for your group and that you are just dying to book, and you can always visit the other. Check on parking availability and pricing too. I see nothing wrong with 3 days in Rothenburg if you do outings; it can be used as a base to visit Würzburg, and you will find accommodations less expensive and more charming, generally, in R'burg. W'burg is a big city, and it appears that you have picked your destinations for a reason. Nothing wrong with that. You might enjoy an outing from R'burg to Nuremberg as well. Both outings can be done on a Bayern ticket, 29 Euros for 2-5 people. Another option outside R'burg is Bad Windsheim, where there's the Franconian open-air cultural museum; daytrips by train to R'burg and Nuremberg are short. http://www.stripes.com/military-life/travel/bad-windsheim-time-travel-at-franconian-open-air-museum-1.102354 Video of Bad Windsheim (German, but you get a good look at the town.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ByEZVq902g Bad Windsheim is on the "Beer road" and has several breweries of its own. http://t3-kundenserver.de.dedi661.your-server.de/typo3/tourismusserver/cms/index.php?id=322

Wow! There's a lot of info here, Russ. Hadn't even thought of apartments but having looked at the site you recommended, they appear a great alternative! I couldn't see any reference to minimum stays, so 2 or 3 nights is OK? Just to give some context at this stage, we're considering ... Day 1: cruise from Bacharach to St Goar, tour of Reinfels Castle, visit to Marksburg Castle (B) Day 2: Mosel Valley - Cochem (chairlift and falconry show at Reichsburg Castle?), Burg Eltz, Beilstein (B) Day 3: Travel via Wurzburg along the Romantic Road to Rothenburg (R) Day 4: Rothenburg sights, shopping and walks (R) Day 5: Day trip to Nurnberg or Heidelberg? (R) Day 6: Travel via Dinkelsbuhl along the Romantic Road to Fussen (F) Day 7: Bavarian sights - Ludwig's castles etc (F) Day 8: Bavarian/Tirolean sights - the Zugspitze (F) It sounds like St Goar might be a better home base than Bacharach and it's just that bit closer to the places we want to visit (- ed Bacharach because it read like the more attractive town!) We are visiting big cities prior to this part of the trip so, yes, we deliberately chose smaller places to stay. Considering our proposed itinerary, are there any other towns that would be better bases? Those cheap rail passes are tempting and could be useful for the areas we're hoping to visit, but are we going to be able to fit all this in by rail?? Or, will it be quicker and easier by car, and if so, would it be best to pick up a car in Frankfurt? The open air museum also looks interesting so we might have to put that into the mix as well!
Many thanks for your thoughts, Russ.

If you're looking for hotel suggestions, here are 2 winners. Both are places I found on my own, that weren't in Rick's Germany guidebook. In Rothenburg, Gasthof Butz: http://www.kreiselmeier.de/index_eng.html Small, clean, homey, charming place. Great location, too, on quiet square right behind main town square. My quiet, pleasent room had private bath, nice view of square, and flower boxes in the windows. For going to Zugspitze, I stayed in Garmish Partenkirchen, at a terrific guesthouse calls Hohe Tanen: http://www.hohe-tannen.de. Warm, comfortable, ultra clean and well-mainatined, cheerful place with excellent bfast each AM, the NICEST owners, and a setting out of a kid's story. Exactly the type of place one pictures staying in when in Bavaria. And location is great; it's a 5 min walk to main town square and to entrance to cogwheel train for trip up to the Zugspitze. Hope these suggestions help! Good luck w/ the trip planning.

Thanks for the input, Nigel and Lawrence. We've discussed the possible need for a medium-size as well as a small car, but were hoping to avoid the expense! It's the convenience that's appealing!! (4 of us still have vivid memories of trying to navigate our way out of Avignon's city centre in our hired citroen last year - the streets were unbelievably narrow!)
The Guesthouses look lovely. Do you think it better to stay near the Zugspitze, though? We'd thought it might be a day trip from Fussen? Or is there another town that would be a better base from which to visit the Bavarian and Tirolean sights I've mentioned?

I have never spent more than 2 nights in Rothenburg, and then left feeling I had seen enough. Consider taking a side trip, like Würzburg, see at least the Marienberg. Then either go to Bamberg or stay in Würzburg and see the Residenz. Or, it if were my trip, I'd go to Nördlingen with an intermediate stop in Dinkelsbühl. On the southern end of the Romantic Road, stay in Oberammergau. You can spend a day going to Linderhof (and Ettal if you have extra time). From Oberammergau, you can take a short bus trip for a day in Garmisch-Partenkirchen or a day trip by bus to Füssen.

"Day 1: cruise from Bacharach to St Goar, tour of Reinfels Castle, visit to Marksburg Castle (B)" Bacharach's a good place to start the cruise, but I'd suggest cruising to Braubach for Marksburg first. You'll see more castles after St. Goar. Rheinfels is open a bit later and you can self-tour. Day 2: Mosel Valley - Cochem (chairlift and falconry show at Reichsburg Castle?), Burg Eltz, Beilstein (B) Beilstein is reachable by boat from Cochem or by bus. But this day is REALLY packed. Eltz eats up a big part of the day. http://www.bensbauernhof.com/burgeltzfrommoselkern.html There's a 4:15 boat trip from Cochem,which arrives one hour later. You'd have 15 min's in Beilstein, which might be enough - very small! - before the boat heads back. It would clearly be a good idea to add a day to do all you'd like to do here. "Day 5: Day trip to Nurnberg or Heidelberg? (R)" Heidelberg is too far away - and perhaps not as worthwhile as the other possibilities, IMO. I sent you a PM about transportation; please see your profile pages.

Day 3 from the Rhine to Rothenburg - A Sunday, as I understand: The 6 of you can get to Rothenburg for 78 Euros on two "Happy Weekend" or "Schönes Wochenende" tickets. There's a 7:20 departure that gets you to R'burg at 12:49. There's a 9:20 departure too. You might want to do Würzburg on the way, or on another day. Day 4&5: Bayern ticket for outings, 58 Euros total per day Day 6: Bayern ticket again. Possible schedule with a couple of hours in the two towns: Leave R'burg 7:26, arr. D'bühl 8:20 via VGN Bus 814; lv D'bühl 10:58, arr. N'lingen 11:47 via VDR bus 501; lv N'lingen 14:14, arr Füssen 17:58 via train. This however seems like a lot of trouble with no train station lockers. The Romantic Road bus alternative isn't so good either as it allows only a few minutes in the towns. You might instead choose to stay in D'bühl. Drop bags there at hotel, see town, move on to N'lingen w/o bags and back later w/o bags (bus 501 returns just before 4 pm.) Then go to Füssen the next morning. Poster Lee may also have good suggestions for this part of the trip.

To confirm a comment russ made. The Romantic Road bus does stop in a few vllages along the way, but other than the lunch stop, some of these are just a brief stop, some 10 minutes and a few of about half an hour. not really time for much sightseeing. It is however a convenient relaxing journey - but train may be just as convenient

Thanks for that, Brian. Yes, I think that we'll end up opting for train travel!

Day 3: Travel via Wurzburg along the Romantic Road to Rothenburg
Day 4: Rothenburg sights, shopping and walks Day 5: Day trip to Nurnberg or Heidelberg? "Considering our proposed itinerary, are there any other towns that would be better bases?" I suggested Bad Windsheim as an outing from Rothenburg. But since it's between Nuremberg and Rothenburg, it would be a more ideal base than R'burg - less than an hour by train to R'burg and to N'berg vs. 1.5 hours from R'burg to N'berg. I rented an apt. for a few days in Neustadt-an-der-Aisch, just down the road from Bad W'heim, and found the outings easy to do by train from there, and I've never stayed in Bad W'heim, but if it interests you, it might be better than R'burg. R'burg is indeed overrun with tourists in a way that is unknown elsewhere in Germany (with the possible exception of Füssen.) For less Disney and more authenticity and convenience, you might look at Bad W'heim instead. Day 6: Travel via Dinkelsbuhl along the Romantic Road to Fussen Day 7: Bavarian sights - Ludwig's castles etc Day 8: Bavarian/Tirolean sights - the Zugspitze From Füssen it takes about 2 hours to reach Garmisch via bus + train. But it's 3.5 hours or so to the end of the cog railway line and the Zugspitze from Füssen. You'd be better off in Garmisch. From there, the Zugspitze is about 1 hr, the castles stop (Hohenschwangau) is 2 hrs. The Bayern ticket can be used for this trip both on the non-stop bus route across the mountains and on the train route through the Tirol (but not on the Austrian part of the bus ride between Reutte's station and Füssen - separate tix required.) The other good part about Garmisch is the Fraundorfer Inn's Bavarian Evening: http://www.gasthof-fraundorfer.de/english/index.php

Also, the truly adorable village of Mittenwald is a short train ride up into the Alps from Garmisch. http://www.mittenwald.de

Gosh, so many possibilities, Russ! During the afternoon I've had a couple of very long conversations with my friends who will be travelling with us and they're also excited by all these great ideas. I've been trying to put it together - in detail - and have been struggling for a while now with the 'no luggage lockers in D'buhl and N'lingen' bit! Got side-tracked when I found a post from 'Poster' Lee which led me to his website. Very interesting. (I've also been trying to see if there's a viable way of getting from Cesky Krumlov to Frankfurt without having to return to Prague! But that's another story!) This is as far as I've got - but it could well change again as you've made some more good suggestions! Arrive in St Goar early Thursday evening. (Loved the look of Walter Huppertz' apartments!) Book at http://www.loreley-apartments.de/unsere_region_en.php Have decided to travel by train rather than hire 2 cars. Day 1 (Fri) Train from St Goar to Bacharach (Is the train across the river in St Goarhausen?) Trains leave at 20 mins after the hour, 10 min trip, €3.20 ticket Have a look around Bacharach Cruise from Bacharach to Braubach – visit Marksburg Castle Train from Braubach to St Goar
Self-tour Rheinfels Castle

Day 2 (Sat) Purchase VRM day pass for €20 from ticket machine in St. Goar. While this caters for 5 of us, will need to purchase one extra adult ticket - or would it be better to get 2 passes with 3 adults on each one? A thought, will this trip take us out of the area, in which case we need the Rheinland-Pfalz ticket for 28 Euros instead? Train from St Goar to Cochem Take Sesselbahn chairlift to lookout 40-min Falconry show at entrance to Reichsburg Castle (1pm, 2.30pm) Train from Cochem to Treis-Karden Bus #330 from Treis-Karden station to Burg Eltz (2.50pm or 4.50pm) – takes 35 mins 45 min tour of Burg Eltz, included with entry fee of €8 (might have to wait up to 30 mins for English-speaking tour Bus back to Treis-Karden station (last buses, 4.07pm and 6.07pm) Train 'home' to St Goar Day 3 (Sun) Purchase on two "Happy Weekend" or "Schönes Wochenende" tickets 7.20am train to Wurzburg – store luggage in locker at station Visit significant sites e.g. the Residenz (Bavarian Castles Pass - €20pp or €36 for partner version), Marienberg Fortress (Pass), Old Main Bridge Continue train trip to Rothenburg Night Watchman's Tour at 8pm – meet in Market Square Day 4 (Mon)
A slow day - Rothenburg sights, shopping and walks

Day 5 (Tues) Purchase Bayern ticket for day and take train to Nuremberg Visit the Nazi sites: Nazi Documentation Centre, Nurnberg Trials Courtroom, Nazi party Rally Grounds? Stroll through the Old Town Imperial Palace (*Pass) Train back to Rothenburg This day is problematic - the luggage! I've typed it up anyway but was wondering whether we do these as a day trip from somewhere else? Also, might Oberammergau be a more central base than Fussen - and would a car/s be useful for getting around, just for a couple of days here? Day 6 (Wed) Purchase Bayern ticket for day Depart Rothenburg at 7.26am via VGN Bus 814, arriving in Dinkelsbuhl at 8.20am Depart Dinkelsbuhl at 10.58am via VDR bus 501, arriving in Nördlingen at 11.47am Depart Nördlingen at 2.14pm via train, arriving in Füssen at 5.58pm. Still thinking about these - detail changes according to 'home base' selected! Day 7 (Thurs) Bavarian sights - Ludwig's castles Day 8 (Fri) Bavarian/Tyrolean sights - the Zugspitze Is it starting to look do-able? I am so appreciative of the accumulated wisdom of those who have responded already and am continuing to take on board the creative ideas being shared!
Many thanks to you all, Kathy

Re: staying in Garmish or Fussen; I was somewhat spoiled in that I've been to this region more than once. So, on my 1st trip, I stayed in Fussen and used that as a handy base for going to Neuschwanstein, Hohenschwangau and the Tegelbergbahn. It WAS very handy and local busses from Fussen take you right to the castles, so it was all made super easy. After a full day (I had arrived in Fussen night before) at the castles and the Tegelberg, stayed over in Fussen 1 more night, then took train back to Munich the next morning. Then, on another trip to Munich a few yrs later, I took the train to Garmish, where I stayed at that guesthouse, Hohe Tanen (you are correct, it IS lovely; not a word I use often, but not sure how else to describe it! Became my home away from home while I was there!), which I used as a homebase for the Zugspitze. The train ride from Munich to Garmisch is easy, fast (around 1.5-2 hrs, if I recall) and takes you past beautiful scenery. I believe that going to the Zugspitze from Fussen IS "do-able," but as, I believe, Lee (a clear auhority on all things Germany; man knows his stuff!) has pointed out before, it's around a 2 hr drive. So, not TERRIBLE, but you'd just have to budget your time accordingly (get up early in the AM, factor in driving/stopping times, etc.)