Some of the posts and the name of this forum bring about some interesting problems of definition. To Americans of my generation everything that was once behind the Iron Curtain is EASTERN Europe. To the people actually living there, at least since "The Change", they tend to be more selective in how they identify themselves. The terms are based on political influence, or how they see their culture relative to their neighbors or in what direction they want to see their culture move or in some instances it just thousands of years of history. I offer this only because I am sympathetic to the American causation for the marker while others, when they hear you refer to Hungary for instance as Eastern European will be somewhat hard on you, and some locals may be offended; but not many, they are good people and understand our reference point. Disclaimer aside. Get a map and follow along; EASTERN EUROPE without much debate includes: Russia (parts of), Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova and Kazakhstan. However, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia are also Eastern European but they escape the label at times by using the term "the Caucasus". Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania would be thought of as Eastern Europe but they avoid the label by using the term "Baltic States". CENTRAL EUROPE without much debate includes: the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia. Germany is either Central or Western Europe depending on who you talk to while Slovenia is either Central or Southeastern Europe depending on who you talk to. Croatia, Serbia and Romania belong either in Southeastern Europe or Central Europe depending on who you talk to. Clear as mud?
Posted by
OP
Magyarország / Rep of Texas
17926 posts
Sort of. What I am really saying is that when you have that conversatin at work about your trip to Hungary or when you are telling a Hungarian how much you love the region, best not to call it Eastern Europe. At home, with my wife, based on our generation and our context, its all Eastern Europe. To be fair to RS, all these places are East of where people traditionally vacationed 20 years ago.
Posted by
Seattle
4637 posts
Division on this Helpline: If you are asking about Prague, go To The East. If you are asking about Vienna go To the West. Now look at the map. Prague is clearly west (and little north) of Vienna. Interesting. This division is based on recent (relatively) history: Soviet bloc or not. So I would say for purpose of questioning Helpline let's use this division. Otherwise I would go with the more appropriate division as you are suggesting.
Posted by
Seattle
4637 posts
Not all of places under Eastern Europe by Rick's helpline are east of places where people had their vacation 20 + years ago. One example is as I already said Prague. It's under East but it's west of Vienna (which is under West).
Posted by
Genesee, ID
1840 posts
I'm not being argumentative, but scholars would put Kazakhstan in Central Asia.
Posted by
OP
Magyarország / Rep of Texas
17926 posts
You guys are having way too much fun. I just think its polite to recognize folks for how they see themselves and getting along with it. Sorry. Didn't mean to start a controversy. The term Eastern must have some derogatory meaning in certain parts of Central Europe as from time to time some get a little bent when they get put in that category. I wanted to avoid one more restaurant guest in Hungary saying; "ya'all eastern Europeeens sure do fix a mighty fine carp fish stew" and then ending up with it in their lap. Okay, I exceeded my two post limit. Sorry Rick. Have fun with it.
Posted by
San Francisco
14510 posts
This way I see it is whether you label the countries you listed primarily politically or geographically. These two categories are the determining factors. For Cz Rep, Hungary, Poland, and Slovak Republic I would say East-Central Europe. Germany could be either Western or Central Europe, depending on one's criteria as are Austria and Slovenia. I had the chance to see Prague during the Cold War days, ie., in 1973, met two other US backpackers en route on the train from Nürnberg. Why...because it was easy to get to, easy to get a visa for entering the country, and basically for historical reasons, I wanted to see the city....time to go back.
Posted by
Olympia, WA, USA
6509 posts
What a tribute to the late unlamented Soviet Union that none of its former satellites want to be seen as in "Eastern Europe"! I agree with James (except for Kazakhstan), but, like him, I find myself using "eastern Europe" to describe Hungary, Czecho, and Poland for reasons of generational geopolitics. Perhaps I'll have more insights after our upcoming trip there. But I'll sure do whatever it takes to avoid the carp stew lap dump!
Posted by
Tigard, OR, USA
1068 posts
I really like the scholarly discussion of Johnson in "Central Europe: Enemies, Neighbors and Friends." I think he makes pretty good points about the geographic, religious, historic and politic delineations of Central Europe and why those countries (and most of Europe) have seen themselves as a unique geo-political-religio entity for hundreds of years. After reading his book, the concept "Central Europe" makes sense to me and it appears to have little to do with the USSR. Since I read the book, I really can't turn my back on hundreds of years of history (and self-definition) and now use Central Europe to describe the region. It does confuse friends who think history started with the Iron Curtain though. A good look at the current and historical thinking about the definition of Central Europe can be found here, it also includes a summary of Johnson's work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe
Posted by
OP
Magyarország / Rep of Texas
17926 posts
Well stated Ray. This was meant to be about their self identification and not about how others look upon them. I'm pretty comfortable from a lot of traveling and discussions with locals about the preference of identity in CZ, HU, RO, SK, BU, AU, but I had to rely on a little research on the others; a lot on some forum discussions with people in those countries and some on the wikipedia articles on Eastern Europe and Central Europe. For me its a help, not in being correct, but in being respectful as a guest. Happy Trials Everyone!
Posted by
Tigard, OR, USA
1068 posts
I'm with you there, all about treating people the way you'd like to be treated..... I would add "especially" when you are a guest in their country. I hadn't thought much about it until I read Johnson's book. It isn't comprehensive, but it taught me a heck of a lot about the area before I visited there last year. What a delightful area, culture and people (and the beer was good too!) Now, I really think of it as "Central Europe" and when I made a photobook of my trip, it is labeled "Central Europe." Confuses a lot of people though.
Posted by
Tel Aviv
15584 posts
This reminds me of when I moved to San Francisco. I always thought I grew up in the Midwest, but everyone who heard Chicago, said I was from "back east." It seemed to me that Californians thought anything east of the Sierra was back east - or at least midwest. Geography is relative, I guess. Am I in the Near East or Middle East? It sure doesn't feel like Asia.