Switzerland and Italy

I do not think u have time for other areas. In future however incl the dolomites.
It is sparsely populated with amazing vistas and fun hiking opportunity.
The berner oberland is fabulous, to me a truely unique and beautiful alpine area with many options. Do not rush it.
Use train for your itin.

8 nights - spend 5 in the Lauterbrunnen Valley, which also covers the Jungfrau Region. Interlaken is the entry point and not as beautiful so just stay up in the valley or in Wengen or Muerren. Head there as soon as you get off the plane. No need for a night in Zurich unless you land quite late in the day.
Then go to Como for 3 nights. Assuming your flight out of Milan is in the afternoon (or at least late AM) you should not have to spend a night in Milan.

No car required! Switzerland has outstanding transportation and cars are virtually useless in the Jungfrau Region. It is also easy to go to Lake Como by train. Consider staying in charming Varenna with easy access to Milan.

BTW, we love the Dolomites, but I think you need to stick to two areas, max. Since you are flying into Zurich, Switzerland is a no brainer. Como makes sense with a Milan departure. If you had two or three more days, the Dolomites would be an option, but it will add a lot of transportation time to go there. Check possible routes at Rome2Rio.com.

I would head straight to Lauterbrunn Velley, either Wengen or Murren. It is 3 hours and 22 minutes from Geneve Airport to Lauterbrunn station where the cable car to Murren or train to Wengen departs.

From Murren, take the Funicular up to the beginning of the North Face trail, it is a mainly a gentle downhill walk with excellent signage our 7 year old did this walk without any problem. The second hike I recommend is the Mannlich to Kleinne Scheidegg, then take the train down or walk down to Murren, then hop on the train and take it down from there.

You can stay on Lake Como, but I would rather be in Milan or close to the airport. Club Hotel is close to the Milan train station, about a 30 minute walk over cobblestones. It is clean and functional, not nice and fancy. There are two airports that service Milan, make sure you go to the right one.

Reading over all of the different train passes has me more confused now than ever. I was thinking about getting a 4 day Swiss Pass and then another 4 days in Italy. I would like a Swiss/Italy pass only but can't seem to find one. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I was thinking about getting a 4 day Swiss Pass and then another 4 days in Italy.

Mark, A Swiss pass is probably a good choice (that is the pass sold by Swiss raiways, NOT a Eurail pass) because it covers all transport in Switzerland except mountain railways and cable cars, and gives a discount on those. You will probably be using trains (or buses) for local transport a lot of the time. To decide if a Swiss pass, half price card plus half price tickets or individual tickets are best, you need to make a list of all your trips and do the arithmetic yourself.

For Italy, a pass is rarely the best option. Tickets in Italy are a lot cheaper than other countries, and even cheaper if bought in advance on the Trenitalia website. And with a pass you still have to make (and pay extra for) reservations, with normal tickets reservations are included in the price. If you have a Swiss pass valid for the day you travel to Italy, you just need to buy a ticket from the Italian border station (Domodossola or Chiasso) to Milan or wherever.

I completely agree with Chris; there's no reason to get an Italian pass, because your trains in that country will not be very expensive. It is worthwhile, however, to really look at the trip durations as you are choosing trains in Italy. There have been times when I had a choice of a regional train and a fast train, with the fast train being twice as expensive but saving only 10 minutes or so.

When you do the math for your Swiss trains, be aware that the default fares shown on the SBB website assume you hold the half-fare card. You need to double those fares to total up the full cost of your trip without any type of Swiss pass or card.

I am very fond of the Centovalli rail line between Domodossala (Italy) and Locarno (Switzerland). However, it's not part of the most direct route from Lauterbrunnen to Como and looks as if it would add about an hour to the trip. The direct route is very pretty, too; it's just that the Centovalli has that "backdoor" sort of feeling. In both cases there are trips with a lot of transfers required, so that's something to consider if hopping on and off trains bothers you. You definitely don't need to worry about missing connections on the Swiss side of the border unless you are seriously over-burdened with luggage.

acraven

We will have at most 2 suitcases and 2 roll away that would store in the overhead bins of an aircraft. We do plan on picking one hotel for 3 or so and will hop on and hop off of different lines and will only be taking our luggage to Como area and then to Milan. I am planning 3 days or so for Lauterbrunn area and will do the Jungfrau and Bernia Express for sure. We look forward to some small town mom and pop shopping as well both in Switzerland as well as Italy.

Mark,

Have you considered flying inbound to Zürich instead. The trip from there to Interlaken Ost is about an hour shorter than from Geneva. After a long, tiring international flight, that would be an important consideration for me!

Does your nine days include your two flight days? With only a very short eight nights, I'd suggest staying in two locations.....

• Lauterbrunnen will allow you to easily take day trips to places like Interlaken, Jungfrau, Mürren and the Schilthorn - 4 nights?
• Travel by train to Milano Centrale and from there to Lake Como. You didn't say which town on the lake you're going to use for a home base. The trip from Interlaken Ost to Milano is as short as 3H:08M, depending on which train you use.
• Lago di Como is often listed as the perfect place for Luna di Miele so would be perfect for the last part of your 30th anniversary celebration - 4 nights?

Congratulations! 30 years is quite a milestone!

Yes I would add Zurich or just r/t to Milan which might make the most sense. I was also thinking about flying into Milan heading to Lauterbrunnen, for 3/4 nights, then Lake Como for 3 nights then to Milan for 2 nights and one night in Paris before right home. Air is 27.00 between Milan and Orly. Only want to see Eiffle Tower..

So far we will be staying 2/3 nights in Milan Centrale location, off to Lake Como for 2 days then Switzerland. Looking at Lauterbrunnen for 3 nights. I just want to confirm I can see Jungfrau and the other Alpine sights from Lauterbrunnen or should I pick another city? Since we are independent travelers I most likely will rent a car and drive from Milan to Lake Como then over to Switzerland. I will not rent a car while staying in Milan. We will use trains. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Colleen

Have you actually priced out renting a car? It can be very expensive to rent in one country and drop in another country because they have to send someone to pick up the car and bring it back before it can be rented again. You are on such a short time frame that you do not really have time to stop at other destinations along the way, so taking the train will be a better choice. The only area that you might want a car would be Lake Como but I would return before heading into Switzerland.

We will be picking up and dropping off car at MXP. I have priced out car at mid 200 USD. With mandatory insurances etc.. I could always just rent a car for the day in Como..

Mark,

You don't need to rent a car at all, as you can reach everywhere you want to go by train. Having a car in Italy adds a few "complications". I may have missed it, but exactly where on Lake Como will you be staying? Also, it's normally recommended not to drive after a long international flight, a practice which has been compared to impaired driving.

Lauterbrunnen would be a great choice for a "home base" in that area, as it's the transportation hub for the area, and easy to reach locations on both sides of the valley including the Jungfraujoch. I normally stay in Lauterbrunnen for that reason, although many others here prefer Mürren.

Ken I have not chosen where I was going to stay in Lake Como area. I am open to suggestions. If I am right Lauterbrunnen is about a 3 hour train ride to Milan.

I believe the minimum travel time between Milan and Lauterbrunnen will be about 4 hours.

Day 1 - Arrive Geneva (2nights)
Day 2 - Lake excursion to Lausanne/Montreux
Day 3 - To Lauterbrunnen (3nights)
Day 4 - Jungfrau
Day 5 - Murren or Wengen
Day 6 - To Varenna (2nights)
Day 7 - Lake Como sights
Day 8 - To Milan (1night)
Day 9 - Depart Milan

Due to flight changes this is what I am planning:
Flying to MXP renting a car for 1 day and driving to Chaminox then returning the car next day. Drive time appears to be 2 hours or so
Then taking train from Milan to Lauterbrunnen/Murren for 3/4 nights then off to Lake Como 1/2 nights then off to Venice for 1 night and off to MIlan for remainder of the trip 2 nights.. with a day trip to Florence on one of those dates.
I have decided to stay away from the tourist trap that is Zermatt in exchange for staying in Chamonix. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Merry Christmas to everyone..

Mark

ViaMichelin.com estimates the driving time from Malpensa Airport to Chamonix at 2:40, and you should expect 72 euros' worth of tolls. [Edited to add: That's one way.]

Mark,

A few thoughts on your most recent posts....

Where to stay on Lago di Como..... Many here like the small town of Varenna, as it has a nice ambiance and it's a good home base for exploring other parts of the mid-lake area. It's 1H:03M by train from Milan.

I suspect your drive from Milan to Chamonix is going to be closer to three hours each way. It's generally not a good idea to drive in a jet lagged state after a long international flight, a practice which has been compared to impaired driving. Rather than spending about six hours in driving time for travel to and from Chamonix (you may not have much more time than that to look around Chamonix), you might instead opt for a short stay in Stresa (no car rental required). It's a beautiful city, relatively close to MXP and more importantly on the rail line to Switzerland which will facilitate the next part of your trip to Lauterbrunnen / Mürren.

For the next segment from Lauterbrunnen to Varenna, the trip will be 5-6 hours, depending on train (if travelling from Mürren, the trip will be longer). One of the easiest trips will be a departure from Lauterbrunnen at 07:33, arriving Varenna-Esino at 13:23 (time 5H:50M, 4 changes, reservations compulsory on one segment). That would get you to Varenna at a reasonable time to check in, and then do a brief walkabout before dinner.

I'm not sure travelling to Venice for one night is going to be worth the effort. Travel from Varenna will take about five hours, which doesn't include time for hotel, check-out / in and waiting times, etc. That means you'd only have arrival afternoon and evening to look around and would have to be out of the hotel by about 11:00 the next morning. Travel back to Milan will be a minimum of 2H:25M via high speed train.

For your day trip to Florence, note that your destination station will be Firenze S. M. Novella.

On the subject of car rental, a few points to mention.....

It's important to note that for driving in Italy, each driver listed on the rental form must have the compulsory International Driver's Permit, which is used in conjunction with your home D.L. These are valid for one year, and easily obtained at any CAA/AAA office (two Passport-sized photos required, which may be provided by the issuing office).

You may also want to have a look at some of the other posts here concerning the dreaded Zona Traffico Limitato areas that are becoming increasingly prevalent in many Italian towns & cities especially Florence, which is almost saturated with automated ZTL cameras. EACH PASS through one of the automated Cameras will result in a €100+ ticket, which you won't know about until several months after you return home! This website provides more information - http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/driving/traffic_cameras_speeding.htm . I received a note recently from one traveller who received several ZTL tickets in Italy, and his wallet was "lighter" by about $700 when the dust had settled.

There's also the issue of parking tickets, high fuel costs, tolls and automated speed cameras including the devious Traffic Tutor system which measures not only instantaneous speed but also average between two points. Violate either or both parameter and expensive tickets will follow. If you did decide to drive to Chamonix, if the route you choose goes through Switzerland you'd need the Swiss highway tax vignette, as hefty fines if you're caught without it.

If you haven't used trains or other public transit in Italy before, there are also some potentially expensive "caveats" to be aware of there. If you need more information, post another note here.

Good luck with your planning!

Ken,

This is our first time planning a trip to Switzerland and Italy.. Any information regarding train travel in Italy is appreciated. If I skip Chamonix it would allow me to add a night in Venice.
Also we will be flying in without an overnight flight as of now we will be coming from London but a day earlier.. So we will fly into MXP from LHR and no jet lag or very minimal..

Let me respond to a few of your comments.

Since this is your first time in Switzerland and Italy, take the train. It is incredibly easy to use and figure out. I would skip Chaminoix and spend two nights in Venice.

Here are a few things in Venice. You can see them in your time there. St. Marks Cathederal, Doge's Palace, Friar Church, Rialto Bridge, Morning Fish Market near the Rialto, a trip up and down the Grand Canal. Gondola Ride in the day, at night, you don't see the beautiful buildings. Get lost! Skip the Gugenheim Museum, it is filled with Modern Art, which is not why I came to Venice.

Try a chichetti crawl by visiting different places. Each chichetti pub has their specialties, fried, sandwiches, etc. My favorite is Osteria al Portego. https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g187870-d1034685-Reviews-Osteria_al_Portego-Venice_Veneto.html

To see the Jungfrau in Switzerland, it is best to stay in Murren. It is on the opposite side of the valley facing the Jungfrau. Murren is on the same side of the Valley and depending on where you stay, you may not see it as the view is toward Murren and Winteregg.

Mark,

Regarding places to stay in the Berner Oberland, the best location to stay from a logistical point-of-view is Lauterbrunnen as it's the transportation hub in the area and offers easy access to both sides of the valley. From there you can easily reach Mürren, Gimmelwald and the Schilthorn on one side, and Wengen, Jungfraujoch and Grindelwald on the other side. While Lauterbrunnen is on the valley bottom and doesn't offer the same type of views as places like Mürren, it's still very scenic. Since I'm out touring in the daytime anyway, I tend to prefer ease of getting about over scenic views when I choose a "home base".

I'll send you my usual "boilerplate" via PM on using public transit in Italy.

Here is our plan so far:
We will fly into LHR with daylight flights a day early (eliminates the jet lag)
Sept 2 LHR arrive after 8PM get a hotel close to LHR.
Sept 3 fly to MXP then take train to Zermatt for one day.
Sept 4-7 Staying in Wengen for Lauterbrunnen area ( or should i just get a hotel more central?) How difficult is it to get from one side of the valley to the other?
Sept 7 Lake Como
Sept 8-10 Venice
Sept 10 Milan
Sept 11 Depart to JFK.

The one thing I am considering is eliminating the night in Zermatt and take that day and use it in Lake Como.
any input is appreciated.

Mark

I don't really understand why you fly into London then immediately fly to Milan, only to up and go to Switzerland. Here's a much simpler plan:

Fly into Zurich arriving in the morning. Take a train to the Lauterbrunen valley for your first 3 nights.
Train to Como for 2 nights.
Train to Venice for 3 nights.
Fly home from Venice.

Each time you change locations, it burns about 1/2 day from your itinerary. Don't do a one-night stop unless it's really, really worth it. Previously you had 4 one-night stays in your itinerary: London, Zermatt, Como, and Milan. Ug!

Also, the cable cars and funiculars make it easy (and fun!) to get around the Lauterbrunen valley.

I would rather leave NYC at 8 AM and arrive in London at 8PM one day early instead of flying overnight and wasting 1 or 2 days with jet lag. My wife does not do well with jet lag.. It wipes her out longer than most. Our trip does not start until Sunday either way. T ashe airfare is booked as well.
If Zermatt is just a tourist trap and does not offer much I can eliminate that however I did want to see the Matterhorn.

I wouldn't characterize Zermatt as a tourist trap because the Matterhorn is magnificent provided you get nice weather. I would skip it because you will already be getting lots of mountain scenery in the Oberland region. The hassle and time cost of going out of the way to see one more mountain doesn't seem worth it to me, but if it's worth it to you then do it.

I am still having brain cramps and what to see and do in Switzerland. We want to see mountains and lots of them. Places where we can see during the day and then shop at night. We are flying in early AM from London on Sept 2 and will depart Milan on Sept 11. I am planning 2 nights in Zermatt and 2 nights in Lauterbrunnen. Then on to Italy for a night at Lake Como, 2 in Venice 2 and 2 in Milan with a day trip to Florence.
Italy is pretty well set.. However I am at a loss on what to see and do in Switzerland I know the Matterhorn and a couple of the cog trains are must see..
My concern with Murren and Lauterbrunnen is the lack of activities at night.
I ask for help again..