Should I do 2 or 3 full days at the Berner Oberland?

This is not meant to be snarky, just my personal opinion. If you schedule your days hour by hour (and minute by minute in some cases) you're just asking for something to screw the whole schedule up, and possibly ruin your day. I can't speak to your budget but as tightly as you've scheduled these two days I think you need a 3rd day there in case your well planned itinerary gets shot down by unforeseen circumstances. So much of what you planned in the alps is weather dependent so it can easily get messed up.

You are going in early season and may have to adjust your plans on account of lingering snow or mud. Also, it appears the Männlichen cablecar will not be running during your visit:

http://www.maennlichen.ch/en/summer-timetable.html

You could instead stay on the train past Wengen up to Kleine Scehdigg and walk the trail toward Männlichen as far as you wish, and return to KS for the train down to Grindelwald. Check the schedule for the First gondola but I believe it will be running. Also check the schedule for Busalp to be sure you can take the bus down. If not, just walk out to Bachalpsee and back to the gondola top station.

Nancy:

The hours are just my estimation. I understand that things can go wrong and that I might have to skip some things and change the itinerary on the fly. I put the hours there so that if there's something that is impossible or super hard to do in that time frame, you guys can warn me.

Lola:

Bummer about the Mannlichen gondola. What if I did a hike from Welgen to KS instead? Are there great views in that scretch?

Alternatively I could do Jungfraujoch early in the morning if it's clear, go back to KS by train and hike to Welgen, then go back to Lauterbrunnen.

I could add a third day just for the First hike. I think this would blow up my budget though. Also not sure what I would do with the rest of the day provided that everything went well in the first two days.

The hike from Wengen up to Kleine Scheidegg is a nice hike past farms and cows, with a view down toward the valley at some point, but the views are not as nice as the ones from the trail out to Maennlichen. Also it is all uphill, though nor steep; it mostly follows a rustic farm road and is easy walking. But you expressed doubts about too much hiking in one day, so I suggested a ramble on the Maennlichen ridge trail (which is level) instead. If I remember correctly it took us about 2 hours to walk from Wengen up to Kleine Scheidegg but that was 8 years ago so I may have that wrong.

The walk out to Bachalpsee is lovely and I would not skip that!

If you are worried about costs you can skip the ride up to the Jungfraujoch. It is very popular (which means it can be very crowded on the train) but I personally do not think it is worth the cost, especially if you don't have a Swiss Pass or Half-Fare card to bring down the cost. Or go early or late to get the cheaper tickets---Good Morning or the late one (I forget the name). It is a nice view from the top----but no different from what a skier can see at the top of many ski areas. Of course if you are not a skier it might be more interesting.

Hmm, sounds like I should ignore the Jungfraujoch area entirely then. I'm thinking:

Day 1

Morning: Earliest gondola to top of Schilthorn

Afternoon: Huge downhill hike back all the way to Murren

Day 2

Morning: Bike to Gimmelwald and easy Chilchbalm hike

Afternoon: More biking down the valley stopping at Trummelbach

Day 3

Morning: First hike to Blussalp

Afternoon: ???

Questions:

1. Is the trail down from the Schilthorne managable for young, fit, but NON experienced hikers?

2. Can I leave my bike alone at Gimmelwald and at the Trummelbach or should I be concerned about someone stealing it?

3. Is there a decent bike path from Gimmelwald down to the Valley?

4. Is there something else that is a must do in the Grindelwald area that I can put on the 3rd day afternoon?

Thanks

Psyche,

To begin with, do you mean Wengen as the location you're going to on Day 2?

Given the number of activities you have planned in that area, my suggestion would be 3 days. As I mentioned in your other Thread, weather could be an issue at that time of year and if you get one bad day, that will give you another day to work with and you may be able to accomplish most of your goals.

I don't do a lot of hiking, but have done the one from Almend-Hubel back to Mürren, and it's quite a pleasant hike. Unless something has changed since my last visit, you'll be taking a Funicular from Mürren to Almend-Hubel rather than a Gondola.

While the trip to the Schilthorn is somewhat expensive, a half fare card or one of the other Swiss Passes will help to reduce the costs. I don't know whether there will be snow there at that time of year, but based on past experience I suspect there may be some residual snow at the higher elevations. Whether there's snow or not, its nice to sit in the revolving restaurant and have a fine hot meal while watching the Eiger, Monch and Jungfrau glide by the windows (provided the weather is decent). It's also somewhat of a famous location, as it was used in the filming of the James Bond movie On Her Majesty's Secret Service many years ago (trust me, it didn't blow up), and as I recall there was a reunion there last year in which George Lazenby attended.

The Jungfraujoch is more of an issue, as if the weather isn't good there's not much point in spending a lot of money to visit there. While you could still tour the Ice Palace, the Sphinx Observatory and other displays, if the place is shrouded in fog there won't be much of a view. It's very touristy and I find the prices in the food outlets there to be a bit on the "high" side.

Given your sightseeing plans, one of the other passes you could look at is the Berner Oberland Regional Pass (this link covers the 2015 version as 2016 isn't on the website yet). There's also a similar regional pass for the Jungfrau which includes one "free" trip to the Jungfraujoch, but again if the weather is bad on the day you choose there it won't be of much use. Keep in mind that once those Passes are activated, the clock is running and you have to use them within the time allotted (4 days, 6 days or whatever).

One minor point to mention..... the train from Interlaken Ost to Lauterbrunnen is somewhat distinctive, so you won't have any trouble finding it. Be sure to check the digital display on the side of the car that you board. As I recall, some of the train splits at Zweilütschinen, and one part goes to Grindelwald and one to Lauterbrunnen.

That's all I can think of at the moment....

The upper part of the Schilthorn hike is rugged and exposed, and may well be snow-covered in May. I would never recommend that to an inexperienced hiker walking alone, no matter how fit. But you can easily ride the cablecar down to Birg and hike down from there.

Ken:

I did mean Wengen! I have no idea why I'm calling it Welgen all this time.

I just did some calculations and it looks like I'll spend in these 3,5 days a total of 158-188CHF for every single transportation on the area, from my starting point at Interlaken to the time I'm back at the station to leave for Venice. So the pass isn't really good for me at 240CHF.

It's interesting that the train splits up, I had no idea. I'll need to pay attention when I board.

And I think I'm already over the Jungfraujoch, I'll just go to Schilthorn if there's a clear day. It's much more convenient going there because I can hike down, and it's also much cheaper.

Lola:

Nice observation about the snow.

Btw, can you help me figure out price tickets for that specific ride? I found this site, but my english is not the best so I'm struggling a little to understand this 100%.

http://schilthorn.ch/en/Angebot/Timetable__Tariffs/Price_Single_tickets

Are these all roundtrip tickets? How do I find out how much does it cost a one-way from to Schilthorn + a one-way back to Birg?

I understand the first prices are for normal tickets and the "early morning" ones are the same ride discounted. But there is this observation on the early ones:

"**7.25-8.55 h / 15.25 h from Stechelberg."

Does this mean that I only get the discounted price if I start at Stechelberg?

Also if you be so kind as to advise which trail down from Birg I should do? I'm using this map:

http://www.gimmelwald.com/pics/gimmelwald/hikemap.jpg

I've seen sites championing the Grauseeli side, but wouldn't that make me miss half of the Blumental hike? Unless of course I went to Allmendhubel station and from there back to Murren. But it seems that going to the Engetal side will take my right there and avoid needless backtracking.

Thank you all very much.

Psyche,

Your English seems to be excellent, but I'll try to provide some answers to your questions.....

• the prices for the tickets shown on the website you provided indicated that they are return tickets.
• keep in mind that the cost will vary depending on your starting and ending points. For example if you ride UP from Stechelberg, but only ride DOWN to Mürren, the cost will be less than a return ticket back to the starting point.
• it's difficult to estimate costs before you've decided whether you'll be using one of the Swiss passes.
• the early morning fares should apply from any of the stations (AFAIK).
• you may find this website helpful - http://schilthorn.ch/cmsfiles/Tarif-Einlageblatt2015_1.pdf

I haven't hiked down from Birg so can't provide any information on that. Once you get to the valley below Almend-Hubel, it's an easy walk back to Mürren. There are a couple of bar & restaurants there as I recall, so you can stop for a "cool one" before heading to Mürren.

Let me be blunt... you're over-planning for a time of year when the weather is still marginal. Depending on what type of winter and spring the region experiences, many of the activities you describe might not even be possible. Keep in mind, May is still shoulder season and it's called that for a reason. There isn't usually enough snow left for skiing, but often still too much snow and mud for many of the summer time outdoor activities. The valley should be green and pleasant, and the high altitude villages should have little to no snow. But the higher you ascend, the worse the conditions will quickly become. And if the snow pack retreats later in the season than normal, you may be in for an nasty surprise. As soon as nature allows, the farmers start to fertilize the pastures. How do they do this? Liquified manure sprayed through a power hose. I won't comment on what mountain infrastructure is even open at that time of year (others, like Chris above, can probably provide that answer).

Also, even if you traveled at a time of year with more reliable atmospheric conditions, the Alpine weather gods can decide to throw a random mountain squall at you that knocks out an entire day.

Here's your best planning option for May- prioritize what you want to see and do. Give yourself as many nights as your intinerary will allow. Then, knock off your wish-list at every chance the weather grants you. Plan on losing at least the better part of one day to rain and fog, and be pleasantly surprised if you don't.

Thank you Chris! That map is ridiculously useful, I'll study it well. Do you have a similar one for the Jungfrau and Grindelwald areas?

Ken:

That's what I meant about my english, I only understand one-way and roundtrip. When I saw "return tickets" I was like "What? Just my way back? Where do I see tickets for actually getting there?"

The pdf you provided is much better and more complete, but still doesn't inform about a Schilthorn-Birg ticket. Looks like they are not sold and I need a roundtrip or return ticket to Schelteberg/Murren if I want to stop at Birg.

I don't intend to buy any passes for now, not even Eurail. I'm calculating costs based on that fact.

Tom:

I'm prepared to accept my bad luck for scenery if the weather isn't very good, but your comment about things like hiking and biking being downright impossible depending on how this winter goes honestly makes me not want to go. I can't even begin to fathom my frustration if I'm forced to stay at my hotel or do sidetrips during my entire stay there. This aura of total uncertainty really, really sucks. I wasn't expecting it to reach such level.

Hi Psyche,

On your comments about not being able to plan for conditions in Switzerland. I totally agree. I have been their 3 times. Once it was during a crazy flood and some of the trains and roads were entirely washed out, another time every day was raining and you only got peek-a-boo views of the mountains, and one time it was stunningly beautiful and perfect.

During the visit with the flooding I saw incredible disaster response, almost everything was still open and there were zero crowds. Same thing when the weather was effy, no crowds anywhere.

I think an often overlooked part of travel planning is to make your plan B and plan C, but also be prepared that at least a few things aren't going to go right at all, but those can be some of the best travel memories. Getting lost, missing trains, reading schedules wrong, weather, language barriers, it's all part of the adventure.

Nordheim

Psyche,

There's no way to accurately predict what the weather will be like next May, especially given the current situation with "global warming". Reviewing the average weather for May is about the best prediction possible. Tom provided the worst case scenario but you could conceivably also have good weather, at least for the majority of your time there.

I tried to find the prices for Schilthorn to Birg fares, but haven't been successful so far. They won't be very expensive as it's only about an 8 minute trip.

If you're staying in Lauterbrunnen, these are an estimate of the "No Reduction" fares (ie: no pass being used) to the Schilthorn.....

• Lauterbrunnen BLM to Mürren BLM - CHF 11 each way
• Mürren to Schilthorn - CHF 60 return, assuming you use the discounted early morning departure

One other point to mention is that you could also stay at the famous Mountain Hostel in Gimmelwald.

Of course those prices are subject to change.

Reviewing the average weather for May is about the best prediction possible.

The problem with relying on a mathematical average is that it can hide substantial outliers, particularly in the transitional months of the year. A more useful tool would be to know both the mean highs and lows plus the standard deviation of temperature ranges. My experience over several years living in Europe was that weather is very hit-or-miss in the Alps in May, and that there's a huge amount of year-to-year variation. One year, I was wearing short sleeves by late March. Another year, I didn't put away my winter coat for the last time until mid-June.

So, I repeat... if you're planning an Alpine extravaganza during the shoulder season, either dial down your expectations, or prepare for some degree of disappointment. Even during the good months of the year for hiking (usually, late June to early October), you can't rely on an expectation of uninterrupted sunny weather.

I hate to always be the prophet of gloom-and-doom here regarding the Alps, but I've simply experienced too many weather disruptions over the years. If you live in Europe, it's no big deal. If the weather one weekend isn't going to cooperate, you can just try again the next weekend. But when you're planning a once-in-a-lifetime trip that involves overseas airfare and advanced booking without the benefit of a short term weather forecast, you need a lot of flexibility built into your plan. The Alpine weather gods don't care if this is your only chance to see the Berner Oberland, if they decide to shroud the mountains in an impenetrable fog for three days, so be it. But if they grant you the sunny skies and mountain vistas of your dreams, grab it and run with it.

So if the weather forecast is showing 3 days of fog or rain or worse, snow, during my time there, should I do something else? Are the forecasts reliable a week or, say, 5 days in advance?

The thing is, I don't mind too much if it's cloudy or rainy, as long as I'm able to do easy hikes and bike around. But if I can't do anything, then it's a huge waste of time.

I could prepare a plan B. Other parts of Switzerland or maybe something else in France. The Dordogne region seems lovely.

Ken:

Wouldn't it be better to get a bus to Schelteberg and go up the Schilthorn from there? Also this 60CHF return ticket is just my way back? What are "return" tickets exactly?

A "return" ticket is roundtrip---both directions.

Tom,

Good points about the weather, and as you've lived there I'm sure you've got a good idea what it can be like.

Psyche,

There are two ways to get to the Schilthorn. You can indeed take the Post Bus from Lauterbrunnen to Stechelberg and then take all four segments of the Schilthornbahn to the top. The other route is to take the Cable Car from Lauterbrunnen to Grütschalp and then the small mountain railway to Mürren. That arrives at the opposite end of town from the Schilthornbahn, and it's a pleasant walk through town. You would then take the Shilthornbahn from Mürren to the top. I haven't checked the cost difference between the two methods, but I doubt there's much difference.

As Lola mentioned, a "return" ticket is there and back. The ticket will take you to the desired destination and then "return" you to the starting point.

Regarding the hiking, you should be able to still carry on with that even if the weather isn't perfect, but just make sure you have good footwear and rain gear. As the old saying goes, "there's no such thing as bad weather, just inappropriate clothing". If you want to look at an alternate destination, you might consider Lucerne.

I mentioned in your other recent thread that you may be just a little early.

You really won't know until you get there. I'm sure that Chris, as a resident (with a big dog that i still want to meet) will have up to date info in his Twitter feed; the town of Wengen has one too.

Hotels and cable car stations have TV screens with live pictures of the summits so you will know what is happening up top.

There really is a difference between May and June, and early May and later May.

The biggest differences are due to the macro weather of the year, and the mountains also have their microclimates.

I remember the very cold spring two or three years ago, I remember the big storms last year, I remember lovely shirt sleeves weather everywhere but at the summits.

You really can have a great time there but don't count on wall to wall sunshine.