Pins for credit cards

Or, you could do like the rest of us and get a contactless credit card. No pin needed. Just tap and pay. I don't know of any major bank in the US that doesn't have contactless added to their credit cards.

You could also use either Apple Pay or Google Pay via your smartphone to pay for things.

I spend over six months a year in Europe, every year, and have yet to be asked for a pin.

Not all mountain huts, etc will accept Apple Pay, etc. so having a debit card is a good idea.

We’re very experienced with Europe as well and have been asked for a pin every single night when we never were before, so take my advice or not, just putting it out there.

Tapping with a physical card will work up to 50 euro, 100 GBP in the UK, not sure about Switzerland, since they operate on their own banking rules (Not EU). Using your phone is better, with a higher limit, but can still be dependent on the merchant side of the transaction.

Your credit card company can provide a PIN, but for nearly all but a handful of cards, that PIN is for a cash advance at an ATM, not for purchases.

There are US issued cards with a PIN for purchase, and just as important, 3DS security for online purchases, I have one, and it makes travel much easier and secure.

I appreciate the heads-up. Switzerland is the one country that has never liked my credit cards!

I’m headed back later this year and will be sure to bring my debit card as a backup.

We’re very experienced with Europe as well and have been asked for a pin every single night when we never were before

That's really strange. As Frank said, you might want to change your credit cards so that they are contactless. I've been traveling throughout Europe for over 30 years, and in the last 10 to 15 years, I have never been asked for a PIN for a credit card. I almost always use Apple Wallet, but I also carry two to three physical cards just ijn case. And I've never had an issue with a PIN in any country I've been to.

Paul and others... - what is 3DS ? Heading to France and Italy in a few weeks... I take 2 physical credit credit cards -Visa & Master Card, and one Visa debit card. I also have Goldman Sachs Apple Master Card in my iPhone wallet, not a physical card. I have the same pin for all of them but I've not been asked for it. I don't recall signing for purchases.

As Frank said, you might want to change your credit cards so that they
are contactless.

That said, in Switzerland, that doesn't always solve the problem. In some places, tap-to-pay and Apple Pay won't work, even for small purchases.

I've been to Switzerland numerous times since COVID, and I've often had to insert my card and then sign. As wanderweg pointed out, some establishments no longer offer the insert-and-sign option, which can create problems for travelers whose cards don't have PIN capability.

Paul and others... - what is 3DS ?

pj, 3DS security is just an extra layer of security added to some credit cards. In other words, you don't just need the card, but you have to verify it in some way; which could include receiving a text or push notification to the app or something like that. And the odds are that you are not going to be signing for purchases unless it's a really large purchase. As I said above, I travel a lot and I can't remember the last time I had to sign for something, and I've never been asked for a PIN in the last ten or fifteen years. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen in specific places, like the Alpine huts mentioned in Switzerland by the OP. As a general rule, though, you will not need a pin through most of Europe.

For what it's worth, if I were you, I would add at least one more credit card to Apple Wallet; maybe a Visa, just to be on the safe side. I actually have around seven or eight credit cards in my Apple wallet. 😊

I think wanderweg's point is being lost a bit here. The post isn't really about Europe in general; it's about a recent experience in Switzerland specifically.

I have always had issues using my credit cards in Switzerland, while they work perfecly fine in other countries.

Of course ,contactless is widely available and used now ,. but when I started traveling in Europe sixteen years ago , Pin codes were the norm on European cards . While not a major problem , Chip and signature cards ( American ) could be a problem ( although, not a major one ) So I solved that problem by taking the few American issued cards that came with a true PIN ( not for cash advance ) Two of my cards are Andrews Federal Credit Union , and a card from Barclay Bank . I use them all to this day .

What is 3DS?

3DS (and there are other similar terms) is similar to 2FA or two factor authentication you might use when you log into a credit card or your bank account. 3DS though is used for purchases and involves 3 parties; you, the vendor, and your card issuer and applies mainly to online purchases where the physical card is not used. Basically you pay for the purchase, the vendor sends a request to the card issuer, the card issuer sends a code to both the vendor and you. You enter the code, if it matches what the vendor received, they finalize the transaction. It is a secure transaction, unlike in the US where you just enter the card number, the expiry date, and the cvc. Anyone possessing your card or the information can use it. With 3DS, not so easy. The EU has 3DS as a standard requirement to make online purchases, though sites with heavy tourist traffic will skip the step for non-EU cards, but not all sites. Your existing card may, or may not, be able to turn the feature on for you. Like I indicated, many times it will not matter, until it does, then you find an alternate way to get tickets or whatever you were ordering online.

"I haven't needed a PIN in years!!!"

That is because the POS is smart enough to know that you do not have a PIN, so it will not ask, it simply prints out a slip, if possible and the amount is over the tap limit, or declines the transaction. Not needing a PIN is not a boast, it just indicates you are using a card susceptible to fraud. Anyone can take your card and tap away in Europe (or anywhere), it need not be you. The EU requires after so many taps, that a PIN be used, a requirement for banks. Since you have a US bank, you do not get that protection. Your phone is better, because the phone requires a PIN or Biometric, so using your phone, you do use a PIN, every time,

Thank you Mardee & Paul. I have my Visa and Master Card loaded in my Apple iphone wallet in addition to the physical cards. I don't think I used a physical card last November in Turkey, Italy, and France. Cards loaded in my iPhone worked everywhere. But now I need to find out if I can use my debit card, if I load it into my wallet, to get Euros from an ATM at the Nice airport in a few weeks.

You should check online to see if you can set up the PIN yourself. I recall doing this before my big trip in 2018. Of course, I have to remind myself what the PIN is sometimes because I use it so infrequently.

Cards loaded in my iPhone worked everywhere. But now I need to find out if I can use my debit card, if I load it into my wallet, to get Euros from an ATM at the Nice airport in a few weeks.

pj, I don't know if you'd have time to do it for your upcoming trip, but something to consider for the future is to open an account with Charles Schwab. The weird thing is you have to open a brokerage account first to get a checking account, but there's no fee for the checking account, and you do not need to fund the brokerage account. That said, Charles Schwab will reimburse you for any ATM fees that you encounter when using their debit card to withdraw money from an ATM, which is a really nice feature, especially if you use ATMs a lot. I really don't use ATMs that much, unless I'm in a country that needs more cash, like Romania, but it is very handy and saves you from the annoyance of paying anywhere from $2 to $5 for an ATM fee.

And Carrie, I get what you're saying, but I think the OP made it clear that it was limited to Switzerland and especially the Alpine Hut rentals. I just mentioned that this is rare because I don't want people to think that anytime they travel to Europe, they're going to need a credit card with a PIN. 😊

Carrie, thanks for the support, the point has gotten lost :)

And no, Mardee, it’s not limited to Switzerland mountain huts. We’re experiencing it at high end restaurants in Austria as well this year. My point about mountain huts was based on Apple Pay, not on my original post point.

The debates can go on, but my point still stands, have a debit card as a back up option, regardless of possible work around :)

To the OPs point, tapping with a physical card is fine, but like I mentioned, their is a transaction limit. I looked it up, for Switzerland it appears to be 80 CHF, close to $100 USD (at the moment). So you likely will not have great trouble just tapping with a card, except that 80 CHF does not get you very far, heck, maybe not even a dinner for two at McDonalds. Over 80 CHF, you will need to insert your card, if no slip can be printed out, then issues, but they likely have a card reader and printer somewhere in the restaurant. Of course a phone will give a higher limit, since you need a PIN or Biometric to use it.

@wanderweg: Thanks very much for your post. Re another poster's response: No, "the rest of us" (wow) do not necessarily use -- or want -- a contactless cc, for any one of variety of reasons. Many do, but some do not. Regardless, I appreciate the O'Ps head's up to travelers who are intending to use a cc to pay for a nice meal and run into the PIN issue. If you don't want to set up a contactless cc, then you need to perhaps talk with your bank/cc co to address the situation. None of this will concern you if you're a happy contactless cc user.

I travel yearly to South America where credit cards have PIN (and people are shocked that mine don’t). There are a few places that tap doesn't work on my Amex (because of lack of PIN) but the problem is solved if I insert the card instead. Sometimes it will require a signature, I never know what triggers the signature. I think it's by location/store as I've had to sign for smaller amounts. I always travel with Amex and VISA (no international fee cards).

Out of an abundance of curiosity, what is the resistance to the use of a PIN? Is there a flaw in the security attached to the technology developed by James Goodfellow?

What are its negative features that exposes one to financial loses?

What is the resistance to contactless cards? Is there a security issue?

Paul Eastern Iowa, please ignore this question as you obviously understand and have knowledge of international money transactions. Excellent explanation of 3DS.

Regards

Ron

Out of an abundance of curiosity, what is the resistance to the use of a PIN?

There is no resistance. It's just that most US banks don't offer them except to use for cash withdrawal.

I looked it up, for Switzerland it appears to be 80 CHF, close to $100
USD (at the moment). So you likely will not have great trouble just
tapping with a card,

Unfortunately, that’s not how it works in practice. I’ve had many small purchases in Switzerland—under 20 CHF at bakeries and grocery stores—where I was still required to insert my card and sign a paper receipt. In my experience, the transaction amount alone doesn’t reliably determine whether a US card can be tapped or whether a signature/PIN will be required.

Also, I think the original post was simply a heads-up for travelers to have a backup payment method available. Whether the reason is changing payment terminals, PIN requirements, or something else, the key takeaway is that some US travelers may run into situations where their usual credit card method doesn't work as expected.

@wanderweg Thank you for this tip. We will be sure to have a pin card and also bring cash, which we do less and less as so many places (esp ski areas in the US) are cashless.

Thanks Frank. I am surprised that a PIN is not included at point of card issue. It is all I have known. This technology has been around since Scotsman, James Goodfellow developed it in the 1960’s. Strange that US Banks did not use it, bearing in mind its superiority of security over signatures. My frail memory records that when c/c were introduced to Australia in 1974 by our major banks they automatically included a PIN to coincide with the introduction of ATMs. For Cash advance for the recalcitrant who did not get enough cash during normal banking hours.

If you ask via your favourite search engine “Do Australian credit card issuers need to provide a PIN” you will see that it has been mandated since 2014, when signatures ceased to be legally recognised as part of the transaction and execution of the mercantile contract. Same applies to debit cards. Is regulated and overseen by the Reserve Bank of Australia and can be part of establishing the facts in cases of dispute before a tribunal or court.

This year when my two oldest granddaughters turned twelve, they were given a contactless debit card attached to their savings account, it came with a PIN. There are overriding safeguards managed by their parents, such as limits on withdrawals and transactions. They are contactless and require the PIN to validate transactions over $20AUD. Just starting them on the road to understanding how technology and their finances interact and how to manage them.

There are changes afoot. No doubt you are aware of the end of the magnetic strip. https://www.mastercard.com/au/en/news-and-trends/stories/2021/swiping-left-on-magnetic-stripes.html Visa and Amex issued similar news.

And I hope you are aware of the end of the embossed cards. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-02-04/mastercard-credit-card-numbers-biometric/104895038 A search will show similar for Visa, Amex etc.

Projected end of Cards 2030 https://newsroom.mastercard.com/news/perspectives/2025/tapping-into-the-future-of-payments/

And in the worlds Universities and Institutes of Technology, those pursuing Masters and PHD levels are already working on next gen e*commerce. No room for nostalgia here.

I would hope that your Solicitors and CPA's keep everyone informed via regular email newsletters. My mates and I do.

Regarding signatures. Seems to me it is a courageous person that willing gives an unknown person in a foreign country a hard copy of their credit card details and signature.

A dry and humourless topic. Before Paul Hogan thrust the knife branding Crocodile Dundee on the world, he had a TV program in Australia with wonderful characters.

A couple of shorts of Australia’s favourite, Leo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLz5KgBTqPY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbtfAzrBFOY

Regards Ron

Ron, the US banks never went to PINS. We had magnetic strips and are now providing contactless cards.

They saved the money converting everything to PINS.

Different countries do different things. I never needed a pin when using credit cards in the US. I've also never had a credit card turned down because I didn't have a PIN. We either signed or now just tap.

And the few times I've had to insert a card, I've always been given a slip to sign.

Of course, some places don't really want to take cards and will use any excuse they can to get cash.

The American's didn't skip chip and PIN for cost reasons at all. They just defaulted to EMV Chip and Sign instead. And now, of course, most cards are also contactless but the two are unrelated. NB in the UK we do issue chip and sign cards but only for accessibility reasons, I suspect the same is true for the EU.

Chip and sign still gives two factor like chip and PIN. You have the "something you have" from the chip authentication and just the "something you know" differs. Being either the PIN or the signature.

You can make a compelling argument that a signature is actually better for the end user as it is much easier to audit in case of a conflict. Now obviously a signature is easier to forge than a PIN but that benefits the CC company more than an individual user.

With a PIN the only audit trail is the machine saying you entered the correct number which only really works if the machines are infallible (which they are not.) If an American wants to dispute a payment they can request the slip and compare signatures.

CC authentication is always a balance of fraud prevention, liability and "friction" reduction. Chip and sign is probably worse at fraud prevention but easier to use (ie lower friction).

You can make a compelling argument that a signature is actually better for the end user as it is much easier to audit in case of a conflict.

I would have to disagree.

In the US, the merchant just accepts whatever signature you provide, there is no verification. Further, many times these days, it is not a slip you sign, but an electronic pad, which are notorious for not accurately capturing a signature to where you could compare, you can put an "X" down and complete the transaction, or more likely, some squiggle. Even if you were to dispute a charge, the chances of someone, the merchant or the CC company producing a copy of the paper slip you signed are about nil. In the end, it doesn't matter, you dispute, they reverse the transaction. Card protections in the US means you are out essentially nothing.

As for the larger question of why little use of PIN in the US, or even 3DS for online transactions, most point to consumers being inconvenienced, we just do not like extra steps or having to remember something. Seems silly, but lots of studies have found this. Add to it that in the US, the consumer has little risk. Despite credit card fraud in the US being some $6 Billion a year (vs the EU's $1.3 Billion for a similar population), protections mean the consumer is out nothing. The credit card companies simply see the $6 B as "the cost of doing business".

Technology though will probably skip over the use of a PIN, magnetic strips, signatures, etc, for other security features, like what you get with your phone.

You can make a compelling argument that a signature is actually better for the end user as it is much easier to audit in case of a conflict.

I would have to disagree.

In the US, the merchant just accepts whatever signature you provide,
there is no verification. Further, many times these days, it is not a
slip you sign, but an electronic pad, which are notorious for not
accurately capturing a signature to where you could compare, you can
put an "X" down and complete the transaction, or more likely, some
squiggle. Even if you were to dispute a charge, the chances of
someone, the merchant or the CC company producing a copy of the paper
slip you signed are about nil. In the end, it doesn't matter, you
dispute, they reverse the transaction. Card protections in the US
means you are out essentially nothing.

I think you are actually agreeing with me (in a round about way.)

Because the vendors are not preserving the signature in such a way that allows them to be checked you end up with a situation much more favorable to the end user.

A correctly recorded signature gives the end user a much easier path to a successful dispute than an electronically recorded PIN. An incorrectly collected and/or stored signature gives the end user an even bigger advantage.