Looking for help for planning first time Switzerland - Germany trip for two weeks

I wouldn't waste a night in Frankfurt. Yes, you will be jet-lagged, but you can sleep on the train.

Bern: why do you want to spend 2 nights there? Bern is an ok city, but nothing compared to the alps.

Gimmelwald: nice little village and I know Rick Steves loves it, but realize there are no stores there and no easy hikes unless you take a cable car elsewhere. I'd suggest Murren instead. There are at least 4 wonderful trails out of there, a handy Coop store, Tourist info, etc., yet it is also car-free like Gimmelwald. You can easily spend a week in the area, and I've done so year after year.

I'll let others more familiar with that romantic road area comment on your drive, though I can predict in advance that most will advise against 1 night, 1 night, 1 night... You spend too much time packing and traveling and unpacking and re-orienting, etc.

I wouldn't waste a night in Frankfurt. Yes, you will be jet-lagged, but you can sleep on the train.

yeah but you have to stay awake for more or less 5 hours to watch that no one takes your suitcase during all the stops; I've been on trains when that has happened recently

Frankfurt Airport to Bern Main Station is about 4 hours. 10 hours in flight. Waiting before and after the flight. And if my calculations are right the time difference means your flight starts somewhere around midnight. I'd say that if you can manage to get a decent amount of sleep on the plane then you should be fine with going on to Bern directly. If not then I'd definitely get a night in Frankfurt.

Another advantage you'd get from spending a night in Frankfurt would be the opportunity to travel through the rhine valley south of Koblenz. That's a nice little strech of land there.

I am somewhat puzzled why you would start in Frankfurt, go to Switzerland, go back to Frankfurt, drive almost back to Switzerland and then drive again in the opposite direction to Munich.

Have you considered doing the driving in the opposite direction? From Lucerne head towards Lindau or Konstanz or Friedrichshafen and get a car there. Head to Füssen, München, and then the rest of the route. From what I understand the romantic driving is all on local roads and thus takes more time. But even then the side trip to Munich shouldn't add more than 2 hours in total...

As for Munich it entirely depends on what you are planning to do. You can easily kill 2 full days. I visited two years ago with my GF. We took it very chill, didn't get up particularly early or crammed much into our days so you might be able to get by with less time:

16th: Müllersches Volksbad (cute), and Technical Museum (you could literally spend days there)
17th: Dachau Memorial (half a day), Strolling through the city, seeing some gates and visit the Hofbräuhaus
18th: More strolling, visiting a beer garden, seeing a few nice churches and the English garden
19th: Therme Erding

But there's so much we had to save for another time.

I wouldn't waste a night in Frankfurt. Yes, you will be jet-lagged, but you can sleep on the train.

yeah but you have to stay awake for more or less 5 hours to watch that no one takes your suitcase during all the stops; I've been on trains when that has happened recently

If that happens to me, I sleep with my luggage (lighter/smaller the better, thanks to Steves) against my leg.

Since it appears you'll be driving in an area where I lived, consider this: Fifty or so miles south of Frankfurt is a town named Aschaffenburg where there is a lovely castle named Johannesburg (sp?). There is also Pompeiigean (sp?) which is a replica of a villa in Pompeii. If you drive the old road (not the autobahn) between A'burg and Wurzburg, just south of Haibach which is just south of A'burg is the village of Messpelbrun. It has a fairy tale moated castle that has been in the same family for 5-600 years. In W'burg visit the Prince Bishop's Residence. Be sure to see the Hofkirche on one end of the Residenze. Easy to miss if you are not looking for it. The Marienberg Fortress is ok but if time is tight skip it. The view of it from the town is more impressive that the view of the town from the fortress. From W'burg it is a short drive from Rothenburg. You should be able to google all of these and see what you think.

I am so glad that I posted for help on this site. Thank you so much for everyone's reply. Very helpful.

Updates:

• We will stay at Murren for 3 nights, instead of Gimmelwald. Thanks for the info from 'shoe'.

• It is really good to know that we need to watch our luggages on the train. Thanks for 'jazz+Travels'.

• As David S. mentioned, maybe we should do:
  Land at Frankfurt (recover for 1 night) --> Wurzburg (1 night and start romantic road driving with 2 nights on the road) --> Fussen (end of romantic road, return rental car and train to Switzerland) ---> Murren (3 nights) ---> Lucerne (1 night) --> Bern ( 2 nights) ---> Munich (3 nights and fly back home)

//Seems geographically this makes more sense. Is it?

// We are not planning to drive in Switzerland. Should we?

• I hear a lot about scenic driving around rhine valley or neckar valley in Germany, but couldn't narrow down the exact road. Is it possible from Munich or Frankfurt as one day driving trip. Any detailed road info?

• Thank you for the detailed info from 'David S.' and 'TC'. They are very useful!!

Ok, if you are going to be in Murren for 3 days, here's my recommendations:

• Take the North Face trail from Murren. From the cable car station, walk diagonally up the hill. When the trail branches at a hut, go left towards Sprutz Falls. Cross under the falls, up the other side and arrive at Spielbodenalp where there is a restaurant. Then return to Murren on the upper path (see map).

-And/or go up the funicular from Murren to Allmendhubel. Walk to Sonnenberg, then to Schiltalp where there is a cheese making hut, then down to Spielbodenalp, then back to Murren.

-If you have a clear day, check the TV monitor at the cable car station, and if the top looks clear, take the cable car up to the Schilthorn, where a James Bond movie (On His Majesty's Secret Service) was filmed.

-Also on a clear day, take the cable car down to Stechelberg, postbus over to Lauterbrunnen. (Or, train to Grutschalp, cable car down to Laut.) Then train up to Wengen, then cable car up to Mannlichen. Then walk from Mannlichen to Kleine Scheidegg. Best hike in the region, in my opinion. 1.5 hr hike. Google image "Mannlichen" to see why it's worth getting to.

Maps:
https://terrelledwards.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/hikingmap1-3-2.jpg

http://ontheworldmap.com/switzerland/ski/jungfrau/jungfrau-summer-map.jpg

Thank you “shoe” again.

Also I realized we can drive from Füssen (last stop of romantic road) into Lucerne Switzerland for shorter time than train and drop our car there.

I think your revised itinerary makes much more sense. Sounds like a wonderful trip! I do think however, that after you get to Bern you will wish you had spent that time in Murren / Lucerne. I personally would skip Bern and add a night to both Murren and Lucerne.

Thanks Jill !

I am thinking about add a day in Lucerne too. I wonder if we will miss something without stopping at any major city in Switzerland ?

I haven't spent time in Bern - just passed through, but have spent a day in Zurich. Let me just say that every time I go to the Berner Oberland no matter how many days I spend there I always wish I had more time there. We are going there at the end of our trip this summer and spending 6 nights:)

FYI..this article was posted on this website yesterday under "travel news". http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/48-hours-in/bern-switzerland-things-to-do-best-restaurants-hotels-bars-city-guide-a8210086.html

Maybe that will help you decide?

You are right, Jill. After read the article and watch a YouTube about Bern, I think we won’t stop overnight at Bern. I will add as Mürren 4 nights and Lucerne 2 night.

As David S. mentioned, maybe we should do:
Land at Frankfurt (recover for 1 night) --> Wurzburg (1 night and start romantic road driving with 2 nights on the road) --> Fussen (end of romantic road, return rental car and train to Switzerland) ---> Murren (3 nights) ---> Lucerne (1 night) --> Bern ( 2 nights) ---> Munich (3 nights and fly back home)

Seems geographically this makes more sense. Is it?

I don't know where you can return your rental car but probably not Füssen. And even if you could getting to Switzerland from there with public transport is going to be slow. I assume from this alternative itinerary that your flights are already fixed.

If they are I suggest you evaluate the cost of keeping the car until you get to Munich. Making the trip to Füssen -> Switzerland -> Munich is going to be faster with a car. It is going to be dead weight while you stay at Mürren but it might be worth considering. Some comparisons: Füssen -> Lucerne is 3.5 hours by car vs 7 hours by train and Lucerne -> Munich is 4h by car vs 5h by train. So a complete round trip is 7.5h vs 12h.

If they aren't. have you considered flying out of Zürich and sandwiching Munich between Füssen and Switzerland? I'm sure you could return your car in Munich and you'd have a choice between decend public transport connections or even a flight to Switzerland.

We are not planning to drive in Switzerland. Should we?

Your routes between Füssen/Munich and Mürren/Lucerne doesn't really put you on the track of many scenic driving routes (that I know of). One option would be to make a slight (1.5h) detour over the Kausen pass between lake Walensee and lake Lucerne. That's a nice, slightly adventerous drive. Another option is what I did with my GF when returning from Munich: Through Austria. Most of the drive wasn't particularly noteworthy (Autobahn) but we did have some nice parts on local roads when going over a pass (can't remember which though). We did however go through Garmisch-Partenkirchen to see the Partnachklamm which put us on a slightly different route in the beginning. Personally I wouldn't make that detour for the road but the Partnachklamm was sweet.

Finally, I also would rather put one of the "Berne nights" towards Munich, Mürren or possibly even Lucerne - Unless you have something specific you want to do there that necessitates another night.

I wonder if we will miss something without stopping at any major city in Switzerland ?

From what I've read on blogs most Americans don't consider Switzerland to have anything that would qualify as a "major city". So barring that what are you looking to see? Personally I don't really care much for the cultural side of cities. I instead appreciate distinct looking cities and towns. On that note I think Berne and Lucerne qualify as worth visiting. Google the sights of both and see if anything grabs your interest enough to warrant putting in a day there over somewhere else.

You could even drop Berne entirely and add another day in Mürren to saveguard against bad whether. You can easily do Berne or Thun as a day trip from Mürren.

Thanks David S. again!

We haven't book our flight yet. I checked that there is direct flight from Zurich to our home. The price and time out from Zurich are about the same, if we are out from Munich. Here is another update with main stops or nights:

Land at Frankfurt 1 --- (drive) --- Würzburg 1 ---( drive) --- Rothenburg 1 -- (drive) -- Augsburg 1 -- (drive) -- Fussen -- (drive) -- Munich 4 -- (drive) -- Lucerne 2 -- (drive) -- Murren 4 --- (train) -- Zurich (same day flight back home)

//The numbers are the nights that we will stay.

Also, I checked that through autoeurope, we can rent car from Frankfurt and drop at Lucerne.

By the way, we went to Prague and Vienna area last year. We like both Prague and Vienna, and we love Castles and Cathedrals, the charming town Český Krumlov and Saxon Switzerland National Park on the border of Czech and Germany. This year we want to see more of those. That is why we choose Germany and Switzerland. :)

If Cathedrals are your thing then don't miss the Wieskirche between Füssen and Munich! (And check the services of the curch. We arrived when a service was just about to start which limited our picture taking)

And on your way towards Lucerne, the abbeys in St.Gallen and Einsiedeln would only be a modest detour (45 minutes)

As for castles I know that both Thun and Spiez have one. Both would be doable as a day trip from Mürren.

Unfortunately I have to admit that I've only seen the Wieskirche from the inside despite having been in all these locations.

Have you asked what the cross-border drop charge will be if you pick up a car in Germany and drop it off in Switzerland? Most travelers give up on that idea immediately when they see the price tag. It varies, but expect hundreds of euros.

It is about $500 more for the one way fee. If we drop the car at Konstanz, Germany and train to Lucerne, we will save about $400. However, we need to change train once at Zurich, since there is no direct train from Konstanz to Lucerne, and also will be 1 hour longer than directly driving to Lucerne. We haven't decided yet.

However, we need to change train once at Zurich, since there is no direct train from Konstanz to Lucerne

Don't let changing trains put you off, trains are supposed to work that way. Since there is a train every half hour, you could spend an hour or two in Zürich at no extra cost (may need to put your bags in a locker at the station).

Thanks, Chris and acraven.

We decide to drop the rental car in Konstanz. Do I need to buy the train ticket from Konstanz to Lucerne in advance?

Also, we will return from Murren train to Zurich and take the flight at around 1pm on the same day. Is it too tight to catch the flight on the same day? I wonder if we need to stay at Zurich for one night. It sounds complicated from Murren train to Zurich.

Do I need to buy the train ticket from Konstanz to Lucerne in advance?

No. Swiss trains have very few discounts for advance purchase, and no seat reservations. Just buy on the day at the station, and the ticket will be valid for any train that day.
Konstanz station is the border point between Swiss and German Railways, Konstanz to Zürich is a Swiss train.

Also, we will return from Murren train to Zurich and take the flight at around 1pm on the same day. Is it too tight to catch the flight on the same day? I wonder if we need to stay at Zurich for one night. It sounds complicated from Murren train to Zurich.

It just sounds complicated because Mürren is half way up a mountain and you need to do train+cable car+train just to get up from or down to Interlaken. Note you need to distinguish between "Zürich HB" which is the main station in the centre of the city, and "Zürich Flughafen", which is the airport station.
You can look up train times on https://www.sbb.ch/en The first trains of the day are:

Mürren BLM dep 06:06, Zürich Flughafen arr 09:16
Mürren BLM dep 06:36, Zürich Flughafen arr 09:42
Mürren BLM dep 07:06, Zürich Flughafen arr 10:16
Mürren BLM dep 07:36, Zürich Flughafen arr 10:42
Mürren BLM dep 08:06, Zürich Flughafen arr 11:16

Then at the same times past each hour. No problem getting to the airport for a 13:00 flight.

Thank you so much Chris for the detailed train info. Really helpful!

One update: we have decided to drive to St. Goar and stay one night, after land at Frankfurt. I want to see the castles and ruins along Rhein river.

Another question: Any recommendation for scenic trains while we are stating at Murren? We are planning the hikes as 'shoe' suggested, but seeing many on youtube about scenic trains, and wonder if we should plan one of those too.

Any recommendation for scenic trains while we are stating at Murren? We are planning the hikes as 'shoe' suggested, but seeing many on youtube about scenic trains, and wonder if we should plan one of those too.

You only have 3 nights (=2 full days) in Mürren, you said in an earlier post, and you want to hike the phenomenally beautiful hikes that shoe mentioned. No time or need for taking one of those named scenic train rides while in Mürren. You'll already be in the most scenic place of all!

Here is our most updated plan:

Frankfurt (landing at 11:40am)---same day drive ---St. Goar 1 --- Würzburg 1 --- drive --- Rothenburg 1 -- drive -- Fussen 1 -- drive -- Munich 4 -- drive -- Konstans --- train -- Lucerne 2 --train -- Murren 4 -- Zurich

//numbers are the nights we will stay.

We will have 3 full days in Murren and one full day in Lucerne.

Any Recommendations for must see or go in Lucerne?

Have you checked out SWISS out of SFO? They have direct flights to and from Zurich (their hub).. maybe use that for future reference. Personally I'd have lunch in Wurzburg, do a bit of walking around, and then head straight to Rothenberg. Use that extra night there, or in Fussen or Lucerne. We've been to both places a couple of times in the last few years and love them both! Everything to see in Lucerne is within walking distance, assuming you're staying along the river (by the old wood bridges). With two days or a 1 1/2 days there you'll have time to take in a boat ride around the lake as well. Also, driving around there is spectacular, and you can hit Linderhof Palace on your way from Fussen to Munich. Just an fyi.. a typical meal in Fussen for two (complete with 2-3 very large beers) is less than 35 euros.... the same meal in Lucerne is about 125!

Thanks, Eric.

Appreciate the info about the cost in Lucerne.

We also found out that we can take the Golden Rail Line on our way from Lucerne to Murren.

Thanks, 'shoe'. I really like all of the photos and useful maps.

Specially below are new info to me:
M2: Zipline sounds fun.
G3: Rodelbahn looks fun.
G1: The lake is so beautiful, but from First, 50 min walk each way to Bachalpsee might be a litter concern to us.