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Hikes, gondolas, train rides, too many choices - please help!

My wife and I along with another couple (all in the 60s) plan to be in the Lucerne area for 2-3 days in mid June 2018, arriving by train from Venice. From Switzerland, we will travel by train to Fuessen, Germany.

Our interest in Switzerland is to spend time in the type of surroundings you see in calendars (places like Gimmelwald, Murren etc). We have no interest in shopping or museums, but want to make the best of our 2-3 days there. The problem is, there are too many choices, and we don't know which attractions are really worthwhile, and which are just "checking a box", to say you've been there.

Here are some things we have identified:

  1. The 30 minute gondola ride from Grindelwald to Mannlichen (or vice versa).
  2. The cable car ride to Mt. Titlis, near Engleberg.
  3. The hike from Mannlichen to Kleine Scheidegg.
  4. Hike from Allmendhubel to Grutschalp.
  5. Train to Jungfraujoch (not sure if the high altitude will present a problem).
  6. Where to stay: Murren, Lauterbrunnen, or Wengen? Which one is more scenic? One problem is that the other couple is vegan, but at least based on the HappyCow website there is a vegan restaurant in Murren.

I'm wondering if one gets a dramatically different view taking the ride going up Titlis, as opposed to hikes in the Bernese Oberland. We are also interested in short train rides in Switzerland, as well as possibly taking the Bernina Express from Italy. Any suggestions and opinions are really appreciated!

Posted by
692 posts

Last year on a RS My Way Alpine Tour we stayed 2 nights in Lauterbrunnen. I don't know if the restaurants are vegan-friendly, but we found enough choices for us. Also, it provided convenient opportunities to see the valley from both sides. We chose to take the gondola to Grutschalp and hike on that side to Murren and Gimmelwald. Yes, I suppose Gimmelwald is picturesque but the entire area is. You can walk through Gimmelwald in about 10 minutes, at least that was our experience. Everywhere in the valley we looked from above or below we kept saying WOW! I say reduce what you want to see or do and enjoy that to the fullest.

Posted by
16895 posts

You haven't mentioned the gondola from Muerren to Schilthorn, which we put at the top of the list. Maybe you already have it there. I've loved that experience a few times but have yet to spend the time and money for the longer train ride to Jungfraujoch. If you do so, first make sure that the weather's great at the top.

The hike from Mannlichen to Kleine Scheidegg is also a wonderful view and easy an experience for people who don't plan more serious hikes. The train to Kleine Scheidegg is half of the route that you would take if continuing to Jungfraujoch. So that again may affect your decision about whether you want to continue higher.

Murren has the highest elevation of the three towns and most hotel rooms come with a spectacular view of the Eiger, Monch, and Jungfrau. Some say that views from larger Wengen are equally good. Lauterbrunnen is a scenic and handy base, but the mountains are not as much "in your face" there.

I assume that you have Rick's Switzerland book, where he assigns star ratings and further description. There is an embarrassment of riches.

Posted by
7209 posts

You say you plan to spend 2-3 days in the Lucerne area yet you list the places you want to see - none of which are in the Lucerne area. So where exactly will you hotel be located in Switzerland?

Posted by
8889 posts

Second what Tim said. Titlis (No. 2 on your list) is near Luzern. But Mürren, Lauterbrunnen, and Wengen are in the Berner Oberland, as are entries 1,3,4,5,6 on your list.

For 2-3 days you need to choose one or the other, and the obvious choice is the Berner Oberland.

The cable cars (3) up Titlis go all the way from the valley bottom to the summit. You get a totally different view than the Berner Oberland because you are in a different area!

The Bernina Pass line is in the east of Switzerland, between Chur and Tirano in Italy. Not near Luzern or the Berner Oberland. If you are coming from Italy (where in Italy?) it is a long diversion to use it to get to these areas, which you probably do not have time for.

Here is a rail map of Switzerland, which may help: https://www.sbb.ch/content/dam/infrastruktur/trafimage/karten/karte-sts-pass-gueltigkeit.pdf
And here is a map of the Berner Oberland, showing Mürren, Lauterbrunnen, and Wengen etc.: http://www.regionalpass-berneroberland.ch/assets/karte-und-partner/Regionalpass-Panoramakarte-2017.pdf

Posted by
32358 posts

With only a very scant 2-3 days, I doubt that you're going to be able to do everything on your list. I agree with the others that you'll probably have to make a choice between Lucerne and the Berner Oberland. There's more than enough to keep you busy there. You likely won't have time for the Bernina Express, for the reasons that Chris articulated.

"Hike from Allmendhubel to Grutschalp."*

That's a bit of a longer hike but certainly possible.

"Train to Jungfraujoch (not sure if the high altitude will present a problem)."

The altitude could present a problem if any in your group have health issues, as the top levels are at about 13,600 feet. I'm also in my '60s and didn't have any problems, but did slow down considerably at the top, especially with things like climbing stairs. I find the Schilthorn to be much easier to tolerate in that respect.

I prefer to stay in Lauterbrunnen as it's the transportation hub for that area and therefore easy to reach either side of the valley.

"One problem is that the other couple is vegan, but at least based on the HappyCow website there is a vegan restaurant in Murren."

If they're able to be a bit flexible, the vegan couple shouldn't have too much trouble with dining choices regardless of where you stay. Breakfast is often provided with the room, and there's usually a wide selection of items including fruits. This menu will provide an idea on the choices for suppers - https://www.hoteloberland.ch/wp-content/uploads/Winter-Menu-2016-17-internet.pdf

Be sure to budget accordingly for Switzerland as it's an expensive place to travel.

*(corrections made)

Posted by
17487 posts

The Bernina Express is a very scenic route from Italy to SwitzerlNd, it as others have said, it does not fit well into your time frame, especially if your goal is the Berner Oberland. You basically have to choose between Bernina Express plus Luzern/Titlis, or the Berner Oberland.

Here’s why: from Venice to Lauterbrunnen by train on the fastest route via Milan and Spiez, the travel time is 6.5 hours. But if you go via the Bernina Pass, the travel time is around 12 hours just to Luzern; longer if you want the designated “Bernina Express” train because of timing. That is too long for one day; you need to break it into two to enjoy the ride. So Venice to Tirano ( via Milan); 5.5-6 hours. Spend the night in Tirano. Next day ride over the Bernina Pass and on to Luzern, 6.5 hours. Then the next day visit Titlis as a day trip from Luzern.

I haven’t been to Engleberg in 50years, so do not remember enough to compare to the Mürren/Wengen scenery ( which I have seen much more recently), but since most of what you list is in the BO, that should probably be your choice.

You could do No’s. 1, 3, and 5 in one nice day from either Wengen, Lauterbrunnen, or Mürren: ride the train from your home Village to Grindelwald ( via Wilderswil). Walk down from the train station to the gondola base for the ride up to Männlichen ( it is indeed 30 minutes, a nice quiet ride over grassy slopes not far below). At the top, walk first to the right to the top of the little Gipfel for great views over the valleys. Then turn and walk toward Kleine Scheidegg, with the Eiger and Jungfrau right in front of you. There is a restaurant with a nice deck on your left before you get to Kleine Scheidegg—nice for lunch.

From Kleine Scheidegg you catch the train down to your village (via Wengen). Or you can walk as far as Wengen, a pleasant walk past farms and through forest.

Your vegan friends will not have an easy time in Switzerland, as the Swiss love their butter and cheese. The vegan-friendly restaurant in Mürren you found on Happy Cow is likely Tham’s Asian restaurant, it it has lots of meat dishes on the menu:

http://www.tham.ch/chinesisches-restaurant/chinese-food.html

They will be able to find something, it choices will be limited.

You might consider an apartment so you can prepare some of your own meals.

Posted by
174 posts

Thank you all for your replies, so helpful! It's also great to know that finding vegan food should not be an issue. Here is some more information and questions, based on your replies:

  1. We will leave from Venice, Italy, and our hotel destination is the Berner Oberland. I can see from the map provided by Chris that the Bernina Express would be clearly out of the way. So either we take a train from Venice to the Berner Oberland or fly into Zurich from Venice via EasyJet, and then take a train. Which might be the better or more scenic option, assuming that the travel, including check in time at the airport is about the same?

  2. I get the impression that the view from Titlis (although a distance away from the Berner Oberland) is more of snowy peaks, as opposed to the view from the gondola to Schilthorn, which may be a combination of green and snow. Is that correct?

  3. Rick mentions a hike (page 131) from Allmendhubel to Grutschalp, where you take the funicular from Murren to Allmendhubel, a hike to Grutschalp, and then the train back to Murren. I don't know how this compares with the walk from Murren to Grutschalp (page 129).

  4. We have also heard of a scenic boat ride around Lake Brienz, which we might consider if this really adds something after being up in the mountains. Any opinions about this boat ride?

  5. The gondola ride from Grindelwald to Mannlichen, is the view dramatically different than the hikes that I mention?

  6. Finally, how is the weather around mid-June? Could it be raining or very cold?

Overall, I realize we are trying to do too much in the limited time that we have, but your suggestions are really appreciated!

Posted by
32358 posts

Andy,

Regarding the hike from Allmendhubel to Grütschalp, I've corrected my earlier entry. It was late when I posted and I wasn't focusing well.

You'll first have to take the Allmendhubel Funicular up to the top, and then start the walk back to Mürren. Note the maintenance schedule for the Funicular as listed at the bottom of this website.....

http://www.interlaken.ch/en/activities-excursions-adventure-festivals/a-world-of-fun-winter-activities/experience-allmendhubel-muerren.html

Posted by
28158 posts

Can it be cold and/or wet in Switzerland in mid-June? In my experience: Lord, yes. And I didn't go high up in the mountains, where it is always colder than down in the valleys. This is why people headed to Switzerland for outdoor experiences are urged to stay somewhere for several days to maximize their chances of good weather and good views from the expensive-to-reach high destinations.

This webpage shows not-very-useful temperature averages for the Berner Oberland, but the precipitation chart is helpful. On average, there will be rain one day out of two. But in my experience, weather systems tend to move in and sit there for 4 or 5 days. So you could have nothing but really nice weather. Or, unfortunately, the opposite.

For temperature, averages don't mean much to me. I like to know the range of what I might experience. Scroll down at each of these links to see the monthly temperature graph for Lauterbrunnen. (Precipitation data is missing.) You can go back another 15 years or so if you're interested.

Lauterbrunnen June 2017
Lauterbrunnen June 2016 (doesn't look good)
Lauterbrunnen June 2015
Lauterbrunnen June 2014
Lauterbrunnen June 2013

Remember, those stats are for Lauterbrunnen. It will be chillier as you ascend. According to the OnTheSnow website, temperature drops about 5.4°F for every 1000 feet of elevation. It will drop more slowly if it's raining or snowing or you are in a cloud.

I don't mean to be excessively discouraging, but I've had a lot of plans for walks in Switzerland that didn't pan out because the weather didn't cooperate. I'm cold-natured and don't like rural walking without proper gear when it's raining and chilly. Since I wasn't planning trips that were heavy on hiking, I didn't travel with things like rain pants. But I managed two really wonderful walks, one in the Loetschental Valley and one in flatter territory in western Switzerland.

Your lodgings can tell you what website(s) to check for webcams showing conditions at the top of lifts so you don't spend a fortune to ascend into thick cloud cover. It's sometimes helpful to get an early start, because it seems that some days start clear, and then the clouds move in.

Posted by
11785 posts

We have also heard of a scenic boat ride around Lake Brienz, which we might consider if this really adds something after being up in the mountains. Any opinions about this boat ride?
The gondola ride from Grindelwald to Mannlichen, is the view dramatically different than the hikes that I mention?

The boat ride is not nearly as scenic as the mountain lifts and walks. We found it rather a snoozefest.

You can get to Männlichen from either Grindelwald or Wengen on a gondola. Both are beautiful. We love the hike from Männlichen to Kleine Scheidegg. Once at KS, descend to Wengen, Lauterbrunnen, or Grindelwald by the mountain train.

Posted by
4864 posts

Get to Murren! Hang out! Enjoy!

And yes the altitude of the Jungfrau and the Schilthorn can be problematic, after about 30 mins on top of the latter my wife said it was time to go.

Posted by
174 posts

The weather info is really an eye opener. We'll have to accept the fact that there is 50% chance of rain/fog on the days that we'll be there in June. And it's good to know that the boat ride isn't such a great idea. Also, from the map provided by Chris, it looks like Wengen would be a better base than Murren, being that it is closer to Mannlichen.

Our tentative plan would be to arrive late afternoon in the Berner Oberland from Venice, spend day 2/3 in the area, and leave on day 4 for Fuessen, Germany. Please feel free to make any suggestions regarding other things to see/do, such as short train rides, or even a trip to Lucerne, if the weather in the mountains isn't great (is there a cheese factory in the area?).

Posted by
21196 posts

Yes, Wengen is handy for a ride to Mannlichen, but that is not the end-all-be-all. There are some cheese making op's in Muerren. It's easy to get between the two, if you don't mind 2 changes. Just remember, its all scenic.

If you are looking for a more scenic railway connection, at Brig, switch to the "Loetschberger" train to Spiez. Then you go mostly up over the mountains than completely under them by the new Loetschberg Base Tunnel. Takes a bit longer.

Going toward Zurich to get to Fuessen, take the route via Luzern, which is more scenic than the route via Bern, even though a little slower.

Posted by
17487 posts

The weather in June can be anything. We usually go later, like late July or late August, but the one time we went in June we had a 50-50 mix of cool/rainy/cloudy/foggy and nice sunny but not hot weather. Wildflowers were just starting to come out.

With your limited time, heading to Grindelwald to catch the long slow gondola up,to Männlichen is not worth the time or the trouble. The cable car up to Männlichen from Wengen is more convenient and pretty thrilling—

Posted by
5697 posts

We did the trip up to Schilthorn from Mürren and, concerned about possible altitude side-effects, spent about a half hour resting/ viewing/ hydrating at the transfer point halfway up -- no ill effects on our 70+ bodies when we got to the top. Incredible views from Mürren!

Had one day with clouds, so we went down to Lauterbrennen and saw the waterfalls inside the mountain.

Posted by
32358 posts

Regarding the altitude, I've never had a problem at the Schilthorn but did notice a difference at the Jungfraujoch. A couple of thousand feet seems to make a difference. I got a good lesson in "altitude" when I visited the Aguille du Midi in Chamonix.

Posted by
9 posts

Aloha Andy,

We had our 25th Wedding Anniversary trip to Northern Italy and Switzerland. Definitely with just 2-3 days - go to Murren and stay at the Hotel Eiger (just across the street from the train station - call and let them carry your carry on up the stairs (lol).) Fantastic service and exceptional food. Breakfast room is extraordinary and our only regret is that we didn't have dinner there each night. (great salad and squash soup - yum). From there you can adventure to Gimmelwald (make sure you time it for lunch at the restaurant there - they serve one or two delicious things - soup and meat and cheese board - lovely) and plan to take the trip up to the Shilthorn. The view from our room at the Eiger was of the Eiger, the Monch and the Black Monch - fantastic. There is plenty of hiking and adventuring. You will feel like you are in a postcard. Bring lots of room on your camera or phone for pictures. All the best!

Posted by
318 posts

We very much enjoyed the trip up the gondola to the Schilthorn from Lauterbrunnen! We were very fortunate to have passed through the clouds to a very sunny morning. Once there we marveled at the Thrill Walk and its amazing views and treated ourselves to a wonderful hot chocolate at the revolving restaurant. The James Bond museum there doesn't take up too much time but we found it enjoyable. From there we stopped in Murren for lunch. Having lunch at an outdoor cafe as we enjoyed the spectacular sights was truly a WOW moment!

Posted by
11294 posts

I want to emphasize that the weather in the Berner Oberland will be - what it is, when you are there. I was there in mid-September 2014 and again in mid-September 2017. For my 2014 trip, I had mostly good weather, and got to do the weather-dependent things such as the Jungfraujoch and the Schilthornbahn. For my 2017 trip, I had clouds and rain more of the time than sun, and didn't even get a chance to do the Allmendhubel (a cheaper and faster excursion than the Schilthornbahn; it's less spectacular, but still very worthwhile). I had really wanted to do the Allmendhubel again, but it would have been a waste of money with no visibility.

Our frequent poster Chani was in this area for two days in June 2015 (on a Rick Steves My Way Alpine tour), and said she had two days of such cloudiness that neither she nor anyone else on her tour did any of the higher lifts or hikes. Of course, others go at this time and have great weather.

So, accept now that you may or may not have good weather, and that if the weather is not good, you may not get to do some of the things you really really wanted to. Or rather, you can still do them, but it will be a waste of time and money (people were still going up the Jungfraujoch, which is very expensive, even though the webcams made it clear that they would have zero visibility once up there).

As for food, know that Mürren, Wengen, Lauterbrunnen, and Grindelwald all have supermarkets, which would be good places for vegans to get suitable foods. Even as a non-vegan, many of my lunches were trail mix from the supermarket, because it keeps, it's easily portable (doesn't get crushed in a bag like a sandwich), and I didn't want to lose prime hiking time sitting in a restaurant in the middle of the day.

Posted by
174 posts

Timing wise, we have two options for our trip. The first one is arriving Switzerland around June 15 from Venice, and the other option is arriving around July 6, also from Italy. The second option could mean hotter weather in Italy, and higher travel costs. I don't know whether the second option could significantly improve chances of sunny days in Switzerland.

If the weather in the Berner Oberland is foggy/rainy, is there anything to be gained by making a day trip to Titlis? In other words, is one likely to get a good view of snow covered mountains from Titlis even if the weather in that area is foggy/rainy?

Posted by
219 posts

Andy, I'm so glad to hear that you and your group are considering going to Switzerland July 6, as opposed to June 15 -- It makes a huge difference! In July all the hiking trails have gotten fresh maintenance and opened after being covered in melting snow piles into June, and all the cable cars are running again. The grass in the pastures has all greened-up and the colorful alpine flowers are in full bloom. The temperatures are mild -- no more cold waves like in June.

The trick to getting the best views in July is plan to start your outings as soon as the cable cars open in the morning. That's usually when you get the clearest sky that you'll get all day. I like to use the weather app MeteoSwiss on my iPhone to plan my day, but keep in mind that weather out there is so complicated that it isn't reliably predictable until the night before or the morning of. Here's a link to that website:
http://www.meteoswiss.admin.ch/home.html?tab=overview

My other best-views trick is to schedule at least twice as many days there as I feel I need, for those periods when clouds roll in and completely blanket everything, to where you can't see the mountains. But partly cloudy days are just fine! It's so stunning and beautiful that it's worth any wait.

My favorite hiking trails aren't open or at their best until around the beginning of July. Among my easy favorites are Männlichen-to-Kleine Scheidegg (take the cable car from Wengen up to Männlichen), and Kleine Scheidegg-to-Wengernalp (take the cog-rail train from Wengen up to Kleine Scheidegg). (I don't recommend taking the gondola from Grindelwald/Grund up to Männlichen because when I took it this past summer (July 2017) the windows were so scratched up that I could barely see the view.) Both of these hikes go through vivid green pastures full of flowers with views in your face of snow-capped mountains (Jungfrau, Eiger, Monch, Silberhorn). Near Wengernalp are places that sell cheese made from the cows you've passed. Btw, my favorite outdoor cafe in Kleine Scheidegg is the Grindelwaldblick (also recommended in the Rick Steves Switzerland book.
My other favorite trail is the Northface Trail, (a medium difficulty hike) which starts from Allmendhubel -- take the funicular from Mürren up to Allmendhubel and follow the blue marked signs through spectacular green mountains with views of a range of snow-capped mountains, like the Jungfrau, eventually making your way to Mürren.
Detailed instructions are in the Rick Steves Switzerland book.

When the weather doesn't allow good views, you can see loads of waterfalls that are pouring down from the cliffs, by walking through the Lauterbrunnen Valley from the village of Lauterbrunnen. Or, if it's raining, visit Trummelbach Falls, which is a short bus ride between Lauterbrunnen and Stechelberg, in the Lauterbrunnen Valley. That series of waterfalls is inside a mountain! Another no-view-period special experience is to take a short ferryboat ride on Lake Brienz to visit the very beautiful Giessbach Falls. To get there, take the train from Lauterbrunnen to Interlaken Ost, change to take the train to the town of Brienz nearby. At Brienz get off the train and the lake ferry will be docked there beside the train station. Take the ferry to its first stop, which is for Giessbach Falls. Take the funicular up the cliff to Grand Hotel Giessbach and walk the path along the waterfalls.
Another no-view suggestion is to take a train to Luzern for the day.

You'd asked about the difference between the trail from Allmendhubel to Grutchalp, vs. the trail from Mürren to Grutchalp. The path from Mürren to Grutchalp is flat and follows the level train track. In contrast, the Allmendhubel trail starts up high and involves a descent, and the view is of the mountains from higher up. I didn't walk all the way down to Grutchalp, but instead descended more quickly down to Winteregg where I caught the train to Grutchalp (after buying some local cheese.)

Posted by
174 posts

So is my understanding correct that the Männlichen-to-Kleine Scheidegg hiking trail may not be open in mid-June, or for that matter most hiking trails around Murren?

My only concern with arriving in Switzerland around July 6, instead of June 15 is that we'll be fighting the crowds and heat in Italy late June (before leaving Venice for the Berner Oberland).

Posted by
219 posts

That depends on the weather. One year I came in late June and the Männlichen-to-Kleine Scheidegg trail was closed due to a late snow storm. The cable cars to get up there weren't running. My husband and I hiked it as soon as it opened at the very end of June, and it was still a mess with big piles of slippery melting snow blocking parts of the path that we struggled to walk through. And I remember that no flowers were blooming yet then, and the grass wasn't green yet. It was still bent down flat from having been covered with snow. I was disappointed that trip.
However, the Männlichen trail is quite high in elevation. Mürren is much lower, and Lauterbrunnen is much lower, still. So I think it's more likely that their trails would be open in June, but I don't remember trying any of them on my one time visiting in June. I've come in July many times since then, and once in September. July is my favorite time there, by far.

I don't know what the temperature is like in Venice in June, but in the southern part of Switzerland, in Lugano, near the Italian border, even July isn't usually what I'd call hot. Of course, I'm from Houston.

Posted by
33891 posts

I've been in Mürren in early mid-June and virtually everything was opened and all the lifts operating.

It all depends on the weather of the year.

Posted by
768 posts

Some comments on your more recent questions:
3. I've taken the trail from Allmendhubel to Grutschalp and it is nice, BUT, I prefer the Grutschalp TO Murren trail because you are hiking TOWARD the mountain views all the time on the latter.
4. Boat ride. Nice, but about #20 on my list of things to do around there. The best scenery is IN the mountains and valleys.
5. Grindelwald to Mannlichen cablecar is scenic, but you will get almost the same views by taking the 1.5 hr trail from Mannlichen to Kleine Scheidegg (or further to Wengeralp). Plus, the latter is free and in my opinion, the best trail in the area.