Travelling within city

Along the Madrid-Cordoba-Seville axis, the train will be substantially faster than driving. You can use the Deutsche Bahn website to check train times and ViaMichelin to get driving-time estimates (said to be optimistic). There are a number of advantages to the train: no worries about parking (costly and sometimes difficult to find), no worries about traffic tickets, no worries about getting lost, no worries about accidents, no paying for gas at about 2x US prices. A bonus is that you can take food with you and eat on the train. Your trip is quite short for the territory you want to cover, so you may be glad for the opportunity to squeeze in meals on a few train trips, and to be able to shave a couple of hours off the time it would take you to drive.

Toledo is on a spur railway line that is connected only to Madrid, so you cannot continue directly to Cordoba from Toledo; you must first return to Madrid.

Getting to and from Granada might not be faster by train. I haven't checked, but I know the fast rail line to Granada hasn't been completed yet, and part of the trip is by bus (run by Renfe, the rail company).

Spanish cities have far better public transportation than most Americans have ever experienced, but it's common for part of the historic core of a city to be a pedestrian zone, so you should expect to be doing some walking even if you use the buses (plus the subway in Madrid). I do just about everything on foot, but I don't travel with children.

There are potentially some significant savings on the trips between Madrid, Cordoba, Seville and Granada if you buy the train tickets quite early and commit to specific dates and times (no refunds, no changes). For Toledo, the price is always the same, and there's not a huge difference for Segovia. I do not know how children's tickets are handled. The information is probably on the Renfe website somewhere.

You'll need a guide book. Rick's "Spain" covers all the places you are proposing to visit.

I hope you can fly into Madrid. There's fast-train (AVE) service between Barcelona and Madrid, but they do not give those tickets away, and it would be better not to waste the time traveling from Barcelona to Madrid.

Incidentally, have you looked at the historical weather data for June in the cities you plan to visit? It may be extremely hot in Andalucía. Here's Seville in June last year; I'm guess that it's hotter than Cordoba and Granada, but I haven't checked. Scroll down for the day-to-day stats. That sort of weather is tough to deal with. I'd seriously consider visiting northern Spain instead. Barcelona and Catalunya could keep you very busy for ten days.

10 nights to cover six destinations sounds like hard work to me, not a holiday. Then you have to factor in transit times......

All that with children in tow.

I feel tired just thinking about it!

I would seriously rethink that itinerary and try to stay in not more than three accommodations, day tripping from each.

Hmm, while walking is fine, I did not realize it was that hot.... I inadvertently just looked around RS tours and saw one (last one) scheduled for late June and figured it must be fine. Hadn't gotten around to actually checking the temps.
I am going to have to rethink this. The north is cooler, you say? Let me look around.

Thanks.

Madrid should be a bit cooler than Andalucía, but it can still be warmer than you might like. Barcelona is generally more temperate, but it was warmer than I would consider ideal last June. However, there are beaches near Barcelona, and you could head for the Pyrenees; that would mean a car.

The coolest part of Spain in the summer (aside from places in the Pyrenees at altitude) is the stretch of northern coast from the [Basque Country][2] to Galicia. Some places are warmer/sunnier than others, and there can be a flukey temperature spike (as in Bilbao last June, per my link), but let's just say you can't count on having beach weather every day. Other than the odd beach day, though, I'm not sure how appealing that area would be to children.

How old are your children? And what sort of vacation are you looking for? Historical sights? Museums? Outdoor activities? Other?

9 and 12. Historical and Museums mostly.
I hadn't looked around northern areas....somehow the southern parts seemed appealing enough. Need to check now and see if that can work.

Thanks.

So, it seems everyone has their mind set on the original plan- Madrid, Toledo, Cordoba, Granada, Seville starting middle of June. I think we will try it, despite the higher than preferred temperatures. Kids are 13 and 9. So, they should be able to survive....

One idea was if we could maybe start from the south instead of Madrid... Fly into Madrid and head right away to Seville and make our way up... we will finish the hotter area (relatively speaking) first. Would that help any?

So, back to my original question... Toledo, Cordoba, Granada, Seville- Do we just walk to various sights within the city as suggested previously?

Thanks for your time.

I just looked at high temps for last June 15-30:
Madrid - 4 days 100 or more.
Sevilla - 8 day 100 or more (up to 108)
Granada - 10 days 100 or more
The last 3-4 days of June it cooled off a lot, highs from mid-70s to mid-80s.
That's not to say it will be that hot when you're there, but it very well could be. My guess is that if the temp is much over 90, no one's going to want to walk long or far, especially when there's not much shade. I don't remember much shade in Sevilla or Cordoba or Toledo. If you go to the Alhambra, you will have to walk long distances with no shade at all on hilly terrain to get to the various sights within the campus, which by the way aren't air-conditioned and no motor vehicles at all.

Barcelona - highs in the low to high 80s for the entire period - and for all of July too.

Andalucía is sort of the classic Spain we all picture (until we've been to Barcelona, anyway), so it's understandable that your family wants to stick with that plan. And it may be the right thing for you to do, because there is no traveler as unhappy as one who is not where he wants to be (which in his imagination is a lot better than the current reality).

But indulge me while I give my rather standard explanation of how traveling in Europe differs from the way you live at home. When it's super-hot at home, I'm betting you mostly go from your air-conditioned house to your air-conditioned car to an air-conditioned school/workplace/store/movie theatre, etc. That's not the way it is in Europe. You will be outdoors a lot, as Chani pointed out. I think you will find that some small cafes, shops and restaurants are not air conditioned. This may actually be less of a problem in southern Spain than farther north because of the extreme heat, but it was issue when I visited southern Italy, and I think you will face it in Spain as well. Even museums may not have a/c if their holdings are things like sculpture rather than paintings and works on paper. Very old churches are sometimes your best hope of finding a cool spot; those thick stone walls are very protective.

You will initially be surprised at how many Spanish businesses close for 3 or 4 hours in the early afternoon--because of the heat, and because they are sane. While you can soldier on through a day of high heat, you won't make it through your entire trip in decent shape if you ignore tough conditions of the sort I fear you will face. Assume that you will not just want, but need, to retreat to your hotel room for a while to cool off, ideally every day, but in reality that will only be possible on days when you aren't making out-of-town day-trips.

Establish a schedule that has you out sightseeing early in the morning while it is still pleasant. That will make up for the time lost during the hottest part of the day. Although you may be out and about before your first planned sight opens, it will be a great opportunity to enjoy the atmosphere and some relatively quiet time in historic surroundings. It will stay light very late, and Spaniards have dinner after 9 PM or 10 PM, so you'll be out during the somewhat cooler time in the evening as well. This is another reason you'll need to crash during the day.

Be sure your packing list takes into account the expected high temperatures: hats with brims for everyone (ideally, vented so they keep you cooler) and plenty of sunscreen. The sun will reflect off light-colored stone and white-washed buildings, so you can get sunburn on your face even while wearing a brimmed hat. Leave the standard (heavy) blue jeans at home. Check your guide book for references to churches that require women to cover their shoulders and all to have their legs covered to the knee or some other point. There may be no such places where you are going, or there may be several. I have found a Kool Tie to be somewhat helpful in high heat. There are competing products, and there are other sources.

I trust it goes without saying that you need to read hotel/apartment reviews very carefully before booking, paying particular attention to comments about the quality of the air conditioning. I would expect that not to be an issue where you are headed, but you need to make sure. Read a bunch of current reviews, but also scroll back through all the winter and fall reviews to find the ones where last year's a/c problems would be discussed.

I don't know how widely available pools are at Andalucian lodgings, but I imagine access to a pool would contribute mightily to family harmony.

City transportation is usually not that much of an issue. European cities, even not very large ones, have bus and/or tram systems (plus a subway in Madrid) that put ours to shame. However, much of your sightseeing will be in historic districts. Some of those streets are pedestrian-only, so you cannot expect always to walk just a block or two and catch a bus to your next destination.

Your guide book should mention the local taxi procedures. I never take taxis, so I don't know how it works in the cities you'll be visiting. In some places you have to walk to a specific place to get a taxi; passing cabs cannot be simply hailed on the street. Or you can call the dispatch office and request one. With four of you, a taxi will be a reasonable expenditure when you need one.

I do remember seeing some vehicles in Toledo, but it felt to me like one giant pedestrian area. I think a lot of travelers use buses to get from the train station or bus station down in the modern part of town to the medieval district up on the plateau (otherwise it's a long walk, though there are escalators), but I believe the bus just drops you off near Plaza Zocodover near the edge of the old quarter, from which you walk to the various sightseeing targets. Toledo's historic area is both hilly and large, but a major part of the glory of Toledo is walking those medieval streets.

If you're wondering whether you should rent a car for your planned itinerary, the answer is "No". Parking can be hard to find and costly. I bet it's hair-raising to drive in Madrid and Seville, and doing so may not get your very near the sights you want to see. It's also likely to restrict your choice of lodgings to less desirable areas since most hotels in the center don't have parking. And it will be slower than the train between Madrid, Cordoba and Seville.

Edited to add: Your idea to head right out of Madrid to the south is a good one. It may not make any difference weather-wise, but it makes efficient use of your arrival day when you may be too mentally foggy to accomplish much of anything, anyway. And it gets you back to your ultimate departure point long before your flight home, so you won't have any concerns about last-minute transportation disasters that might cause you to miss your flight.

oh you guys (or ladies) are killing me with all this good advice... and I appreciate it :)
Thank you for the advice, we will take it. So, we have next spring's trip decided now.

Now, all I have to do is to find something for this June...maybe further up north where its not as hot...

I really think you're making the right decision.

These are areas where I've spent part of the summer over the last 3 years. They were selected on the basis of historic weather patterns, and they worked well. Of course, you need to investigate how interesting they would be to you and especially to your children.

• Northern Spain from the Basque Country to Galicia. Many cities with pretty/atmospheric historic centers and fishing villages converted to beach destinations. On rather rare occasions a meteorological hiccup occurs and there's a day or two of really unexpected temperatures, but it passes very quickly, and the odds are good that it wouldn't happen to you at all. There are some outdoor-activity possibilities in the very pretty mountainous area called "Picos de Europa". (Car needed in that specific area.) Between the Basque Country and Barcelona you have the Pyrenees; altitude always works. I haven't gotten to that area myself beyond the Cerdanya Valley, which is very interesting but HOT in the summer. You'd really need a car for the Pyrenees. Barcelona is much milder than Madrid and especially Andalucía, and it's one of my very favorite places, but I cannot guarantee that it wouldn't be pretty hot there during your timeframe.

• Normandy and Brittany: No mountains up there, but I spent about 20 days in the area last July, and I think there was one hot day in Bayeux/Caen, which happened to be on the day I was taking a van-tour of the D-day sites (highly, highly recommended); it was so breezy up on the coast that I was never hot.

• United Kingdom: The odds are excellent that anywhere will work. The western edge of Great Britain tends to be more overcast so is probably less likely to suffer a heat wave; they do occur on rare occasions, but I think the most extreme temperatures tend to occur in the London area. (I have not attempted to verify that impression.)

• Italy's Dolomites. At altitude it is very, very unlikely to get hot. So any mountainous areas would be a good bet. The Dolomites and the Austrian Alps are much cheaper than Switzerland, if that matters. There are great walking opportunities from casual strolls to more challenging routes. There are some very pretty cities down in the valley through which the train line runs, including Bolzano, which has the museum housing the Iceman. Warning: that valley can get as hot as other lowland areas, but because it's near the mountains, a lot of the moderately-priced hotel owners think they do not need air conditioning. They are so wrong. This areas combines well with a few days in Venice and/or the lake district and/or the many lovely towns just to the south (Padua, Ferrara, Vicenza, Verona). However, heat is a definitely possibility (probably a likelihood) in those places.

Of course Scandinavia is a good summer option, though rather pricey. I suspect far northern Germany (not Berlin--it gets hot) might also be OK, and it is cheaper. However, I haven't researched the historical weather data for northern Germany; I just notice a sharp drop in temperature as I moved for Berlin up to Schwerin (castle alert!); it might have been an anomaly.

A quick way to see monthly average temps is to go to a city's Wikipedia entry. However, those seem to be based on stats from quite some time ago (before climate change), and the summer average temperatures always seem a lot lower than the more recent data. After an initial screening on Wikipedia, I suggest going to wunderground.com. Enter the target city, choose "History", choose "Monthly", then use the pull-down boxes to set the date to June 2017, and choose "View". You can scroll down to a table showing daily highs and other stats. Then check a few more years to get a pretty clear picture of the range of weather you might experience.

Thanks again for the input.

Any thoughts about Slovenia-Croatia? Weather is certainly a lot cooler and the place looks interesting too. I will post some questions on that forum after I have been able to do a little research.
Other thoughts are Belgium or Scotland.

Got to get something worked out soon...

I have never been to Belgium or Scotland, but I would not fear excessive heat there. Rather the reverse.

I like Slovenia and Croatia. They are both very interesting, and I think there are a lot of places there attractive to kids. They certainly shouldn't be as hot as southern Spain, but again you should look at day-by-day historical data on wunderground to get a better feel for the situation.

One thing to be careful of with Slovenia/Croatia is planning to cover too much ground. Slovenia and part of northern Croatia is more like it. I haven't been to the Soca Valley in Slovenia, but I understand that there are a lot of active-outdoor opportunities there; you'd need a car to take advantage of them. This comes up fairly often, and we have a Slovenian poster (Dejan) who has generously provided a lot of detailed information in earlier threads. Slovenia also has the Postojna and Skocjan Caves, one of which you'd probably want to include; they are accessible by public transportation, but a car would be handy. Ljubljana itself is a charming city along the banks of a river. And there is a castle right in town, sure to be a hit.

I think kids would typically like the Plitvice Lakes National Park (Google for pictures), but there's a technique to having a good visit there. You must spend the night before your visit near the park and enter it when it opens. Once the day-trippers arrive, the walkways are like the sidewalks in Manhattan. The park is accessible by public bus from both Zagreb and Split, but getting there is easier by car.

Going to Slovenia and Croatia might mean flying into and/or out of Zagreb. It's quite a pretty city with a very nice, bi-level historic district. It has an active cafe culture and a nice produce market. There are also a bunch of museums. If your kids are mid-teens or older, I recommend the Museum of Broken Relationships (yes, really). There are a number of more traditional museums as well, quite good ones. The Museum of Naïve Art is small but excellent. Quite a lot of people prefer the smaller Ljubljana to Zagreb, but there's no doubt that Zagreb is well ahead in the museum category. Zagreb is well connected to Ljubljana via both train and bus.

Thank you for getting me started!

I am looking through the Croatia/Slovenia forums now.

Thank you for taking that decision!

What about Ireland/Northern Ireland/Scotland. Hot days there are those that have the thermometer reaching toward 80. One benefit is that everyone speaks English (though the accents can sometimes be difficult) so you can have interesting converations with the locals. Dublin has several very good sights for kids and there are day trips too. You could spend 2-3 days in another part of the country. It's not a long train ride to Belfast, spend 2-4 days there and and in Londonderry, then fly to Scotland.

BTW both acraven and I are women; she's undoubtedly a lady, my best friends don't think I am. These days, "you guys" is asexual.