Spain and Portugal Itinerary help

"On our last trip (France and Italy) my family didn't like the amount of times we changed cites and hotels. The feedback was too much time spent on "travelling" and not enough time spent on relaxing and sightseeing....OK, we'll go to less cities and live more like locals rather than breeze in and out to see every place and everything."

With what you say above, I would roll Cordoba into Sevilla, and Toledo into Madrid.
A single night in Ronda is a welcome (and I would say necessary) break in your road journey from Sevilla to Granada.

Barcelona - 5 nights, 4 full days (including day trip to Montserrat) (hotel already booked)
(AVE train trip to)
Sevilla - 4 nights, 3 full days (including day trip to Cordoba)
(rent car and drive to)
Ronda - 1 night to break the road trip
Granada - 3 nights, 2 full days
(train)
Madrid - 5 nights, 4 full days (including day trip to Toledo)
(flight, not booked yet)
Lisbon - 4 nights, 3 full days (including day trip to Sintra)

What are your dates? That could change my advice.

There's no reason to rent a car to drive to Granada. Any time you save over taking the train or the bus will be used up (and more) just renting the car and returning it, even if you have ideal driving conditions.

Compared to your other cities, Madrid is the poor cousin. The major sights in Madrid are the great art museums. If your family want to see them in depth, then 3 full days is enough. I'd definitely take a night from there, even 2.

I haven't been to Portugal, but friends came back a few months ago and raved about Porto, and were underwhelmed by Lisbon.

To get to Toledo, you have to change trains in Madrid. You can pack small overnight bags and leave most of your luggage in the lockers in Atocha station.

Matt,

we'll go to less cities and live more like locals rather than breeze in and out to see everyplace and everything. My rule is now no less than 2 nights / 1 full day in any city.

I think you have too many 2 night stays which means that you have one full day to "breeze in and out to see everyplace and everything"

• When is this trip taking place?

• You mentioned that you already booked your flights, but I'm a bit
  confused. Are you flying into Barcelona & out of Madrid?

I would leave Lisbon for another trip & by doing this, you give yourself more time to explore each of the other cities on your list.

You may consider this route as IMO it's more efficient:

Barcelona (4-5N) => train to Granada (3N) => train or bus to Sevilla (4N) => train or bus to Córdoba (2-3N) => train to Toledo via Madrid (2-3N) => Madrid (4N)

Madrid is a great city if you love to visit museums. I'd rather stay in Toledo than Madrid.

Thanks everyone for the great advice so far
Our trip is May 31st out of USA landing in Barcelona on June 1. We fly back from Lisbon on June 22. So yeah we will be doing Lisbon.
I had planned on doing the itinerary in the other direction Barcelona -> Madrid -> Cordoba -> Granada -> Seville -> Lisbon and DRIVING between those last 4 but then I found out it was $630 for dropping a Spanish car rental in Portugal plus the info I found out about the toll roads in Portugal on this site.
Maybe I should go back to making more portions of the trip driving instead of train. I've never taken high speed rail.
Chani... Thanks for the info on train between Cordoba and Toledo. I would indeed need to change trains in Madrid which defeats the whole purpose. I do want to see this great city though.
Keep the advice coming. Thanks Mucho!
--matt

OK. Thanks to everyone so far. I really appreciate the input. Still requesting help.

The basically "cannot drive from Seville to Lisbon" issue has thrown me for a loop. The alternative I have come up with is to fly from Madrid to Lisbon (it's less than 50 dollars, flying from Seville in $278). Plus I's like to stay in Toledo for longer as I just get a sense that this city wasted only as a day trip from Madrid.

So the plan is
4 full days in Barcelona (including day trip to Montserrat)
then AVE high speed to Cordoba, bypassing Madrid
1 full day in Cordoba
then AVE high speed rail to Seville
2 full days in Seville
rent a car and drive to Granada (via Arcos, Ronda, Grazalema and or Zahara)
1 full day in Granada
drive to Toledo and turn in rental - HEY, what good towns are there to visit between Grenada and Toledo on a day of travelling
1 full day in Toledo
slow train to Madrid
2 full days in Madrid
late flight to Lisbon on Madrid day three
3 full days in Lisbon (including day trip to Sinta)

Instead of the above should I:
1. stay 1 day in Seville and 3 days in Madrid
2. stay 2 days in Lisbon and 3 days in Madrid
3. Keep it exactly as above

I think to avoid confusion you should just talk about # of nights, with 22 being the total for the trip. Correct?
If you are happy with the two night stays then the following may work best for you.
Consider flying from Barcelona to Granada - check with LCC Vueling.

Fly to Barcelona - 5 nights (including day trip to Montserrat)
Fly to Granada - 3 nights
Train to Sevilla - 3 nights
Train to Cordoba - 2 nights
Train to Toledo (via Madrid) - 2 nights
Train to Madrid - 3 nights
Fly to Lisbon - 4 nights (including day trip to Sintra)

The only train to Toledo is from Madrid and it takes a little over 1/2 hour. It is a busy line, used by local commuters and day-tripping tourists. There are fairly frequent trains, but no early ones on weekends. Take a look at the train schedule before you commit. It is not difficult to change trains in Madrid, though it may take you 15 minutes to get through the station.

You may be overestimating what you can see in a day by car. Rent a car in Seville (takes at least 1/2 hour), then just driving time from Seville, via Arcos and Ronda, to Granada is 6 hours (using viamichelin) without stopping for scenic views. Ronda is a big town, takes time to drive in and out of, not to mention finding parking, then walking to sights. Arcos is very difficult to drive into. Most people park at the bottom and take the minibus up to see the town. I'd estimate a minimum of 2 hours in Arcos and 4 in Ronda. Lunch?

Believe me, it is a common problem for all of us (wanting to see as much as we can in a short time), but you haven't yet adapted to the slower pace your family wants. You have 10 major destinations on your wish list, so even 22 nights is going to be rushed if you don't drop some. And traveling around Spain and Portugal is a challenge as not all the cities are well connected by train as they are in other European countries.

I agree that you should consider flying from Barcelona to Granada. It will save you some time if not some money. Depending on your exact arrival time, you can easily see Granada with just 2 nights there. A half day for the Alhambra and a half day for the old town with some extra the day before or after for the other minor sites. Add a night if you have it to slow things down.

If you want to rent a car to see the hill towns, then you need to factor that time into your itinerary. It's not worth it to just drive by on your way to the next city. Either spend a night or two in one of the towns or just take the train/bus from Granada to Sevilla (both are 3 hours - the bus offers more flexible schedules). The same is true for your plan to drive from Granada to Toledo. You'll spend an entire day in the car instead of in the cities you really want to see. Renting cars in Europe is not for transit; they are for spending time in the countryside exploring smaller towns and scenic regions. If you were spending a couple of weeks in Andalucía, then it would make sense to rent a car.

Cordoba is a wonderful small city and I love a couple of nights there, but with your schedule, you would be better served just making it a daytrip from Sevilla with an extra night there to slow things down. It's only 45 minutes from Sevilla and can easily be seen in a few hours (or stay for dinner and go back to Sevilla late). Some people make it a stop on their way to Madrid as it is on the same Sevilla-Madrid AVE line. There are storage lockers in the bus station across the street from the train station.

Madrid is a very nice city but it lacks the charm of all the other places you will be visiting. In my opinion, it is great for its museums and as a base for daytrips. Toledo is better seen with a couple of nights there. I would spend 2 nights in Toledo and cut a night from Madrid. Two days in Madrid is plenty for the type of trip you are doing (which despite being over 20 days is still very rushed given how much you want to see). Flying from Madrid to Lisbon is about the only good option. A few days in Lisbon is plenty, especially with one spent at Sintra.

Try to schedule flights in the evening to maximize time spent during the day in each city. The flights are short so you should still be able to check into your hotel and have dinner in your new city (locals don't eat dinner until after 9:00).