question about credit card PINs

I have needed my credit card PIN when purchasing train/transit tickets from a kiosk in Europe.

One of my credit cards was able to get a PIN to me in less than 24 hours. Another sent it via USMail and it took 7-10 business days.

We've not been asked for them when paying for hotels or restaurants. I believe the machines recognize that you're using a primitive American card. But it is good to know what the PIN is, as you would need it to get a cash advance on your cc at an ATM. Thats a backup plan if your debit card doesn't work, since cash advances can incur larger fees and interest.

Most US credit cards do not have PINs that can be used for purchases - only for cash advances. I heard one story of someone who tried to do that - use the credit card's "cash advan e PIN" - to make a purchase, and it was charged as a cash advance!! (That is, with immediate interest charged, very expensive).

So personally, I would never try to use a PIN for a purchase in Europe unless your credit is EXPLICITLY a "chip and PIN" credit card. If the credit card company doesn't offer you a PIN by default, assume it's not "chip and PIN" - just "chip and signature."

There are a few very "chip and PIN" credit cards available in the US. I do have one. On my last trip to Italy in May, I had a couple of "chip and signature" cards (better benefits) as well as my "chip and PIN" card - but I never needed the chip and PIN card this trip. I used the chip and signature card everywhere, even at a Trenitalia ticket machine (no PIN required - your mileage may vary, as they say). For small amounts, your US chip and signature cards may be accepted at machines without a PIN. Mine have been numerous times in different countries. I've only rarely needed the chip and PIN card (e.g. in Amsterdam at train ticket machines).

When making a purchase with a US card that is just "chip and signature" when a human vendor is involved - at a store, restaurant, hotel, etc. - they will automatically get a printed slip for you to sign, instead of being asked for a PIN like Europeans do. Most businesses who deal with tourists are aware of this, but occasionally you'll find a clerk who isn't used to dealing with a credit card with no PIN and may not even realize you have to sign the slip.

I was concerned about this ahead of my last trip to Europe, and I've never been asked for a PIN to use my credit card, only my debit card.

Been in Europe every year for probably the last twenty years (and June 2019 being my most recent). I've never needed a pin for a credit card...only for debit cards at ATMs.

It would be good to create a PIN for your credit cards, where available. I have three credit cards, one doesn't even have an option for a PIN. My recollection is that I needed a PIN for gas purchases in France and for ATM transactions in every country. In Spain, we never needed a PIN for a credit card transaction. We did buy gas, once, near Granada. We didn't know how to work the pump (or even how to open the little door on the rental car for the gas, haha), but the cashier, came out and did everything for us. I then paid inside and no PIN was necessary. We used very little cash in Spain. I can't recall a restaurant that was cash only. The only thing I ran into was that in some places they preferred cash for purchases under 10 euro.

I heard one story of someone who tried to do that - use the credit card's "cash advan e PIN" - to make a purchase, and it was charged as a cash advance!!

That is just a flat out lie. Not that you heard it, but that it happened. The only transactions that can be billed as cash advances are those done where you receive cash. Period, no exceptions, end of story. You cannot make a purchase appear as a cash advance to the bank who issued you your credit cards. The PIN being used or not does not control what type of transaction is being done.

This is all controlled by the network connecting the merchant to the credit card bank. Each type of transaction can only be done at specific types of merchants. The bank will not make a mistake on this either.

I have used the so called cash advance PIN over 100 times to make purchases in Europe when asked for a PIN (mainly being train tickets from unmanned kiosks and similar situations) even though my credit cards are the standard US chip and signature varieties. Not once has any of those transactions showed up as a cash advance.

Mark,

You got your reply in first. I was going to say essentially the same thing. I also have used my chip and signature card in Europe and have had to use the PIN. Never have been charged anything different from all the other purchases where I signed the receipt.

wow, thanks everyone!! I've been to Spain three times in the last 10 years and have only ever been asked for a PIN when using my debit card. But, I guess I better be safe and call the 800 number to reset the PIN just in case.

Really appreciate all the replies! Thanks!

I have used the so called cash advance PIN over 100 times to make purchases in Europe when asked for a PIN (mainly being train tickets from unmanned kiosks and similar situations) even though my credit cards are the standard US chip and signature varieties. Not once has any of those transactions showed up as a cash advance.

Have you ever tried just 0000 for the PIN in cases like that? I've heard of that working in some cases. How do you know a PIN was required at all, even if one was requested? I have almost never been asked for a PIN for any of my chip and signature cards at machines - usually I can just make a purchase without a PIN at all. The train ticket machines in Amsterdam are the only one I can remember. Machines in Russia, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, to name a few, accepted my card without asking for a PIN.

In the case I had heard of (sorry - this was second hand, thought it was this forum.), it sounded like the person charging the card charged it like a debit card - which would be just like a cash advance, right? If you use a debit card for a purchase, the cash immediately comes out of your account.

The main card I use when traveling I have always had the PIN for. I have tried various 4 digit numbers that were not the actual PIN and sometimes the machine takes it, mostly it rejects it. I have also tried skipping the PIN by just pressing enter, that has never worked. Most of this has been it Italy when it came to train tickets. If the transaction is below a given amount, sometime the PIN is not asked for even in situations where it should be so a lot of my McDonalds purchases just went through and I did not get a slip to sign either.

While a debit card can be used like a credit card in the US -- the card is swiped or chip read with no PIN is entered and you sign the slip just like a credit card, the opposite does not change the fact that a purchase is not a cash transaction with the cardholder receiving cash. You can't do extra cash back on a credit card, like you can with a debit card at many merchants, the function simply does not exist. Also, there is no way for the merchant to say "this is a credit (or Debit) card" when performing a transaction. The network knows what type of card it is, that is why you can get cash from an ATM with a debit card and it is not a cash advance rather just a withdrawal from your account. There is no bank account behind a credit card (except for secured cards, which is a whole other topic) so it cannot function as a debit card.

What may have happened is the person was hit with Dynamic Currency Conversion where the merchant picks the exchange rate and charges your account in dollars (or whatever your home currency is). This is never good for you and can equal a sizable mark up depending on the rate used and you still get hit with the foreign transaction fee the credit card charges, if any.

What may have happened is the person was hit with Dynamic Currency Conversion where the merchant picks the exchange rate and charges your account in dollars (or whatever your home currency is). This is never good for you and can equal a sizable mark up depending on the rate used and you still get hit with the foreign transaction fee the credit card charges, if any.

Yeah, could be. I'm sorry, I shouldn't be repeating second-hand information.

I've had to use the PIN when purchasing train tickers, subway passes, and for parking, all at unattended kiosks. On two of those occasions, others using a chip and signature card were denied, but my chip/PIN card was accepted.

All my CCs have a PIN, but I haven’t had to enter a PIN in years. Generally, it’s chip and signature in Europe.

@Andrew H, I think I remember reading such a post not long ago, here as well.

The other reason, barely mentioned, for having a PIN for your credit card is that you can use your credit card at an ATM to get cash as a cash advance. This would be for cases where maybe your Debit card gets lost or eaten, or just does not work. This is one more back-up or option when traveling that can be valuable, like traveling with multiple debit accounts, multiple credit cards, and back up cash.

As several posters have mentioned, since a PIN is so prevalent in Europe, most systems (kiosks and automated ones) will ask for a PIN routinely, as Mark detailed in his personal experiences, using the assigned PIN is usually the most successful, though the PIN appears mainly to satisfy the needs of the processing system, not your card issuer. Also, many cards include a low Dollar ($50 or so) option where no validation is needed if both your card and the processing system allow.

Do keep in mind that if your card does not work in a ticket machine for example, there is nearly always a manned window as an option. Also in Spain, do be aware of DCC for both credit and ATM transactions, it is very common there.

I thought you all might enjoy the follow up from this. I decided to go ahead and change my PIN just to be safe. I was told that I had one but I have no idea what it is/was. My credit union gave me the number to call to change my PIN. I call them and the automated voice tells me that my request can't be processed and that I should call my credit union? Hmmm, that's where I started! So I call back and speak to a person and she figured out that I was calling from my cell phone and THAT was the issue?!?!?!?? Because Visa only had my land line on file and because I was calling from my cell phone they could not help me. Wow. That seems so odd to me but there it is. So I called from my land line and got the PIN changed. I also noticed that both mine and my husband's CC numbers, expiration dates and 3 digit code on the back were identical so I asked the nice lady if we only needed one PIN since everything but our names were the same. and she said yes. Okay, so now we're all set!!

Thanks again for all the help. I appreciate it!!

A few years ago I became concerned about the “chip and pin” issue with credit cards, so I spent a great deal of effort obtaining one through Andrews Federal Credit Union. I’ve been to Europe several times since then as well as 2 trips to Australia. In all those trips, I’ve only needed a pin once, and that was at a gas pump at a roadhouse in an Aborigine village in outback Australia. Even then, I just went into the roadhouse and bought one of their cash cards. Perhaps one day we will have a pin as normal course of events. Until then, I don’t plan to do anything further about it.
Best regards,
Bioboy48