Help with Spain/Andalusia and Morocco itinerary flying from USA

With only 12 days I'd concentrate on Spain and leave Morocco out. How much of Morocco are you intending on exploring? Most people opt for a day trip with a ferry crossing from Tarifa to Tangier but it can work out a long and tiring day. We did the trip in April, mostly because the kids wanted to experience visiting Africa (the reason most people do I suspect) rather than some overwhelming desire to visit Tangier. Personally I wouldn't recommend it, Tangier is not a particularly interesting place to visit, it's best viewed with a guide however this often comes with the annoying practice of taking you to friends/relatives shops in the hope that you'll buy something. The place is very cosmopolitan and it's not that noticeably different from Southern Spain, for a more traditional Moroccan experience I would suggest that you would need to travel further south/inland.

I would certainly not advocate driving there. I have no problem with driving in most places but the standard of driving in Tangier was appalling! If you think the prospect of driving in Rome is a challenge then Tangier takes it to another level, I wouldn't even contemplate it.

Another concern is the ferry crossing. The Strait of Gibraltar is often quite windy and this has a regular impact on the ferries. It is quite common for them to be cancelled and there are many accounts of people being stranded in Tangier for a day or more.

Personally I'm not one for tours and I would be happier arranging things myself. I'm also a bit of a hotel snob so I like to be in control of where I stay. I also like the freedom that doing things on your own can bring, you're not tied down to timings and pace and with the age of your parents being able to slow the pace down if it gets too much is a big advantage. You also don't say what time of year you'll be going as this will be a big factor in determining the pace.

You don't need a tour to enjoy Spain. We've been going for years and have never undertaken one (the tour guide in Tangier was the exception). Simply do your research, choose what you want to see and visit when it suits you best. Renting a car is definitely recommended, trying to explore using public transport is going to be time consuming, expensive and frustrating.

I second JC's comments. My mother and I loved Morocco, and we traveled on our own, but that was for about 2 weeks. I don't recommend a day or two in Morocco as an add-on to a trip to Spain. To have a day in Tangier will cost you that day plus substantial chunks of two others, and you will have seen the Moroccan equivalent of a Mexican border town.

You can easily fill 12 days in southern Spain, but it sounds as if you really have only 10 days.

What time of year do you plan to travel, and what gateway airport(s) will you be using?

Your parents are over 65 but what sort of shape are they in? The RS Spain tour is great and we had a couple in their late 80’s but they were in excellent shape and only missed a couple of the more strenuous activities. If your parents are infirm or have mobility issues a self driving tour might be best otherwise you’d enjoy the RS tour and see a lot. If you do it yourself and stick to Andalusia then Sevilla, Córdoba, Granada are three places you should visit. That might just fill your 12 days allowing for driving time. I concur with others-strike Morocco.

Can we really fill in 12 days in South Spain. I was thinking 2 nights each in Seville, Cordoba and Granada were enough to cover everything. I'm looking to fly from New York City to Madrid mid-late September. How would you guys tailor this itinerary.
My parents are in good health and don't have major mobility issues. My dad can easily cover 5 miles on foot but my mom would probably get tired after 3.
Morocco - Haha Tangier wasn't on my list but i'm considering visiting Fes and Marrakech for 2 nights each. That fills up the 12 days i have perfectly with 2 days for travel.
Thanks.

Budget airlines fly nonstop from Sevilla to Marrakesh or Fes. You can fly into one or the other and take a train between them. (Madrid and Barcelona also have flights to Casablanca (transit hub only) and a few other Moroccan destinations. You can find most schedules at www.skyscanner.com.

If you have not yet booked trans-Atlantic flights, you could fly "open jaws" or "multi-city" into and out of any two cities on your plan, to avoid a return to Madrid.

In both countries, trains are the easiest way to connect the big cities, and lots of destinations not served by rail are served by bus and other transport options.

Fes and Marrakech are great destinations, but I have a feeling you are seriously underestimating the time lost when you move from city to city. Also, are you counting the day you land in Spain or Morocco? One or more of your travel party are likely to be walking zombies that day due to sleep-deprivation and jetlag. Many of us have found we need an extra day at our first stop for that reason. (I'm your parents' age, and suddenly on my current trip my sleep schedule was seriously messed up for four days, not just one. I'm sure that's unusual, but I think age aggravates jetlag issues for many people.)

• Have you checked the availability of non-stop flights between Spain and Morocco? Connections are time-wasters. What's available to/from Fes or Marrakech? Is there a flight from one of the Spanish cities you plan to visit, or must you waste time traveling to a different city to get the flight? Skyscanner.com is a good source for info on one-way flights to, from and within Europe.

• Ideally, you'd either fly into Morocco or fly home from Morocco, but I think the only viable airport for that purpose will be Casalanca. More time wasted, because that's not a city where you want to spend time on a short trip. Casablanca is over 3 hours' driving time from Fes (not sure about the distance from the airport), according to ViaMichelin, which tends to be optimistic. And of course that doesn't include time to rent a car (if you dare--seems a bad idea to me). I haven't researched public-transportation connections.

• ViaMichelin says the driving tome (no stops, no getting lost, no looking for parking, etc.) between Fes and Marrakesh is over 5-1/2 hours. Some research on Rome2Rio.com (follow the links to train and bus websites for more reliable schedule info) will allow you to check out the current state of bus and train travel in Morocco. It was very slow when I visited the country about 30 years ago.

• The fast-train line to Granada isn't complete, so traveling in and out of that city is a lot slower than what you'll experience on the Madrid-Cordoba-Seville line.

Basically, what I'm saying is most of those two-night stops are going to yield one day and (if you're relatively efficient travelers) maybe 2 or 3 hours of sightseeing time. You're going to spend almost as much time in transit and checking in and out of hotels as you do sightseeing (more if you count the transatlantic flights). "Fun" is not how I would describe such a schedule, but YMMV.

It may stil be very hot in Andalucia and Morocco in September. I encourage you to look at actual day-by-day high temperatures for Seville and the two Moroccan cities for September 2017, 2016, 2015, etc. on wunderground.com. Choose History, then Monthly, then use the pull-down boxes to select the month and year.

Some very valid points. We plan on traveling mid to late September when the heat is not as intense. According to some tour companies such as juliatravels and indus, they have a package that covers Seville, Granada, Cordoba, Fez and Marrakesh all in one 12 day trip

I looked at Indus and the reviews. The tour itself “covers” a lot of ground but all one night stays for the most part. They count the day you are flying as day 1 and your first day on your own in Madrid as day 2. Quite odd. Looks like most dinners are on your own. The Yelp reviews of this company are horrible. I did not look at the other company you are considering. I think you’ll continue to get this advice on this board: you are trying to cover too much ground in the time you have. If you merely want to check a box that says “been there” then have at it. But to really enjoy Spain and appreciate what it has to offer, slow down, narrow the places you want to visit, start accounting for travel time, jet lag. Look at the RS Spain tour to get an idea of pacing.

Morocco - Haha Tangier wasn't on my list but i'm considering visiting Fes and Marrakech for 2 nights each. That fills up the 12 days i have perfectly with 2 days for travel.

I can't speak to the Spain part of your trip, but I can address Morocco as we did a tour there earlier this year. Now Morocco is amazing! It's definitely worth your time, but in this case I just want to point out that if you drive it's about 6 hours between Fes and Marrakech. The roads are good, but you'll need to pick/choose your stops along the way because there aren't the same kinds of rest areas as you find here in the States.

You'll also want to be prepared to secure cash before you start driving. A lot of places in Morocco which we encountered were cash only, no matter what credit card sign was in the window. You will need coins for the restrooms, although you'll find some incredibly clean restrooms there.

The medina in Marrakech can be done on your own with a good guidebook. The medina in Fes will require a guide if you plan to travel more than three streets. It's worth your money to hire one, but do your research first. And remember that in the medina of Fes, donkeys and motorbikes have the right of way.

There's a lot of walking here over uneven surfaces, so be prepared for that if your parents have issues with either.

Hope you have a wonderful adventure!

Despite it being fairly close, I've never been to Morocco so can't say on how it compares, but I wanted to comment on this "Can we really fill in 12 days in South Spain. I was thinking 2 nights each in Seville, Cordoba and Granada were enough to cover everything."

I think the answer is "yes, you can easily fill 12 days". There is a lot a more to southern Spain (or just Andalucia), than the three big city-sights (wonderful as they are). Many visitors want to see at least one of the so called White Towns/Villages, and there are other interesting cities such as Antequera or Ubeda/Baeza. I really like Cadiz city too (I'm pretty ambivalent about Almeria city though, and think you could skip it), and there is, despite the "concrete jungle" reputation, still plenty of coastline that is not built-up and is very attractive. You can see quite a lot in 12 days with a car, including some national park & mountain areas (you don't need to hike if that is too much, just drive through). You might also find you need more than 2 nights in Seville and Granada, especially if you take day-trips.

Seville can still be pretty hot in September, though it depends what you are used to. A daily high of 30C isn't unusual at the start of the month, dropping a fair bit by October.

The last five days of September 2016 saw highs of 86F to 93F in Seville. 2017 was a bit cooler. Morocco could well be hotter. It was 113F on one June day during my trip back in the 1980s (pre-climate change).

You have all been very helpful. I'm now convinced that we should fill the 12 day trip with just Spain destinations and leave Morocco out. Alan and acraven i really appreciate your advice and thanks for looking into the tour companies. I've decided to go ahead with a self guided tour and will rely on public transportation rather than renting a car. As of now i think the best itinerary for us would be 2 nights each in Granada, Cordoba, Seville and 1 night in Malaga and Toldeo. Does that sound OK.
Thanks.

"As of now i think the best itinerary for us would be 2 nights each in Granada, Cordoba, Seville and 1 night in Malaga and Toldeo. Does that sound OK. "

Not for me. Here's why:

1) The day of landing in Spain is likely to be a jet lagged haze, so while it's fine for walking around, you don't want to plan on any heavy sightseeing, or too much indoor time, on this day.
2) The day you depart is taken up with getting to the airport, so no sightseeing occurs on this day.
3) The larger a group, the slower it moves.
4) A group only moves as fast as its slowest member. With four people, someone or other is bound to be a "slowpoke" at some point (who that is can vary, but assuming you can keep a group of four on a forced march pace for 10 days straight is going to lead to a lot of frustration).
5) You are looking at guided tours and trying to match their pace. Remember that on an escorted tour, someone who knows the way (including alternate ways if their first way is not workable) is guiding you around. You cannot go that fast by yourself, when you have to find the hotel, or the bus stop, or a restaurant on your own, and have to figure out alternatives on your own if the first plan doesn't work (say, if a bus is re-routed).
6) Two nights in a place is only one full day. Again, on an escorted tour they can whip you through a few highlights quickly, so a day can be sufficient (for an overview). On your own, you need more time. And Seville and Granada definitely have more than one day of sights. The others can too, depending on your interests.
7) A bunch of two night stays in a row is going to get tiring. Even if you only have one full day of "sights" in a place, you need downtime.

Since it's a geographic outlier and will take time to reach, I'd drop Toledo on this trip; see it when you are seeing Madrid. Instead, you can do a variant of what I did in 2006. I flew into Seville, had 4 nights in Seville, then took a train to Cordoba for 2 nights, then took a bus to Granada for 3 nights, then a bus to Malaga for 1 night, then flew home from Malaga. My flights were on Iberia, connecting in Madrid (at the time, Iberia had a great sale fare on this route).

Buses in Spain are much nicer than in the US (you get a reserved seat). On these routes at that time, they were faster and easier than trains on some routes (buses went direct while trains required connections). I took taxis to and from the bus and train stations, and this worked very well (taxis in Spain are cheap and reliable). Once I was ensconced at the hotel, I walked in Seville and Cordoba and Malaga, and used the minibus in Granada (very handy for the Alhambra and Albaicin).

Lots of sound advice in this thread, I'll just add one or two bits (and disagree strongly with one).

First, the disagreement:

The medina in Marrakech can be done on your own with a good guidebook. The medina in Fes will require a guide if you plan to travel more than three streets.

I must take issue with that. For the record, there's no reason that any competent, attentive adult can't navigate their way through the medina in Fes pretty easily. Sure, old neighborhoods in Fes (and Marrakech, and some other larger cities) appear confusing, chaotic and disorienting at first. So do the side "streets" (pathways) of Venice or Tokyo or any old city at first. Don't let all the fear-mongering bamboozle you. If you get lost easily, consider bringing a cheap, tiny compass when traveling in a strange city - it's always helpful to be able to determine which way is north! If you get temporarily disoriented in the Fes medina or the back streets of Dubrovnik, don't panic. Take a look up - you can almost always spot some church/mosque/monument/tower (pro tip: look for impossible-to-miss landmarks before you get lost and note their relation to where you are). Worst case, you go for a little walk, you see some interesting things, you eventually find your way. Do not fear these places, including the twisty passageways of the Moroccan medinas - little kids have been surviving there for hundreds of years, you'll be OK too. ISIS is not going to pop out of a doorway and strap you to a passing donkey. Hey, some of my best travel experiences have occurred when wandering those medinas...

But you're going to skip Morocco (rightly so - save it for another trip when you have time).

Good points made above about one-night-stands and two-night-stands. That said, I'd take issue with cutting Toledo from your itinerary. It's magical when the day-trip crowds are gone, so it works very well as an overnight stop. Personally, I'd cut Malaga instead (the Costa del Tourismo). I'd also cut both nights in Cordoba - Cordoba's best attractions - the Mezquita and a stroll around the gardens and old town - can be done efficiently as a stop on the high-speed train between Sevilla and Madrid. Which means you need to figure out how to work Madrid into the mix. The logistics will be tricky but the way I figure it, you may (probably) have to fly in or out of Madrid anyway, and it's a great city, under-appreciated by Americans generally.