Help! Need advice on staying total 6months in Spain & Italy ASAP!!

You simply can't do it because it's against the Schengen rules - you're only allowed 90 days out of 180 to stay within the zone. Then you have to stay a minimum of 90 days outside the zone before returning on Day 181. I believe your only choice is to apply for, and be granted, a Visa to extend your stay (before the 90 days lapse).

I hate to jump all over on this, but you did all that planning without realizing your stay without a residency visa is limited to 90 days? You are indeed now in a tough pickle. Now on to trying to help...

Since Spain is your main place of residence now, and the kids are enrolled in school there, I'd focus on getting a residency visa for Spain. If successful, that will allow you to travel to Italy later. Do find out from the Spanish consulate what the visa requirements and application process is. I'm not sure if you'll have to return to the US to do it, or if you can mostly do the paperwork where your are and work with an attorney in the US. If approved, you may need to get a new entry stamp in your passports but that should come clear during your application process. You might be best to work with an immigration attorney or expediting service (be sure to work with reputable firms), who can lead you through the process and advise you. Our forum here is not expert at residency visas and at best, maybe someone has a firm to recommend or has gone through the process for Spain (each country will be different).

Best of luck

Thank you for responding. We are already 2 wks in Spain right now. I was wondering if there's anyway to get an extension for the 2nd 1/2 of our trip in Italy? I thought perhaps if I begin the process now here in Spain I will have enough time to find out if we are eligible for an extension. Is there a way to get an extension to stay based on my children going to school? What a mess we are in. I knew nothing about this law no one every asked us any questions while booking schools, flights or living arrangements. Of course I am to blame for this huge over sight. Any help is so appreciated

Lots has already been written about Schengen rules on this forum (you can do a search to see). Here's an example:
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports/schengen-agreement

As a first step, go to the Spanish consulate or embassy and see what's required for a Visa and then decide whether the effort and expense is worth it in light of your prospects. At the same time, I would seriously think about Plan B, including negotiating to get your money back on your prepaid items in Italy. I think the time crunch is such that you cannot count on getting a Visa, and there are too many moving parts (i.e. time sensitive travel to Italy) that require everything to go quickly and smoothly, which is rarely the case when it comes to extended Visa matters.

If you cannot get an extension, there are places you might stay outside of the Schengen zone. Croatia, Bulgaria, Cyprus, and Romania are outside the Schengen zone as is all of the UK.

This is most unfortunate.

Your 90 days in the Schengen zone started August 13 so you need to leave it by November 10 to be safe. You don't get an "extension" of this time based on kids in school. You need to apply for and be granted a residency visa of some type before Nov. 10.

I doubt that anyone here knows whether that is possible or if so, how to go about it. You need to contact someone knowledgeable like an immigration attorney ASAP for advice.

The one quick solution I can think of, without going the visa route, would be to get your Italy apartment and school plans deferred so you start there mid-February, after the 180 days expire. Then spend November, December and January outside the Schengen zone ( returning to the US for some of that would be safest unless you count days carefully and exactly.)

Your best bet is to contact the closest US Embassy near you in Spain & explain your dilemma.

Perhaps the Embassy may give you some type of legal letter (explaining your dilemma) which you can send to the school & the apartment owner in Italy, so you may at least get some of your money back.

Is there a way to get an extension to stay based on my children going to school?

I doubt you will be granted on extension solely for this reason.

Did you mean to write 14 or are your twins 4 years old?

Good luck with all this...

Thank you all for taking the time to reply. Douglas I know, I do feel ridiculous for taking all my time to arrange such an amazing opportunity to live abroad in 2 countries for my children (yes 4yrs old no, not 14yrs) to give them a full immersion expierence and never realizing the 3 month limit included all of the 26 countries not individually as I originally thought. In other words, I thought by staying in Spain for the 3 month limit and then moving to Italy for its 3 month limit thought that was ok to do not that the 3 month limit included both as a whole like as if they were 1 country. Being in Spain now and trying to find help perhaps with an Italian Immigration lawyer contacting one in Italy by phone is what I was thinking but I believe we need to be there in person to do it. If that's the case, I'd travel there to do it - whatever it takes just don't make me go home to apply for a visa. Perhaps I will post my dilemma in the Italy section on this site as well to see if anyone has any insight there. I did read that Getting a long stay Schengen visa in Italy is easier but I dont know. thank you again everyone. I truly appreciate any feedback and advice on this matter.

First: The time-limit is 90 days, not 3 months. Be very, very careful about that. People who overstay that time limit (without a visa) are sometime heavily fined and barred from entry into the Schengen zone for years.

Last year I met an Australian couple who planned a long stay in Italy. They went through the visa-application process at home and were ultimately successful, but it took them either 3 or 4 trips to the consulate to make it all happen. It's my understanding that substantial documentation is required to prove financial stability (bank balance? proof of monthly income?), health-insurance coverage, etc. It may not be easy to get hold of the necessary documents when you are already away from home, even once you figure out what is required. Italian bureaucracy being what it is, I would expect a good bit of back-and-forth about the precise requirements.

I don't know whether it would be easier to get a long-stay visa for Spain or for Italy at this point. As I understand it (I am not a lawyer!), either would allow you to go anywhere you want in the Schengen area for the period of the visa.

If you do, in fact, have a pre-paid 3-month lease in Spain, that might be a wedge to get a Spanish visa. Without it, you cannot stay 3 full months. But I have a vague recollection that someone recently said a long-term lease is required (more proof of financial stability), which suggests that you might need to go the Italian route.

Ivy, you are really in a mess. First, the Schengen Area limit is 90 days in 180, not 3 months. They count every day.
The 90 day allowance is only for tourists, this means you are not allowed to work.
If you want to stay longer than 90 days, you become a resident. You apply for a residence visa, which is a totally different thing. A US-based lawyer will be of limited use, it is Spanish law (and the Schengen Treaty rules) which apply. You need to get a lawyer in Spain.
AFAIK you need to apply for the residence visa from outside Spain, you apply to your local embassy or consulate. And you need to provide proof of funds to support yourself, medical insurance and other things. It may not be possible to convert from being a tourist to being a legal resident when you are already in the country. That is why you need a lawyer who knows Spanish law.
Once you become a legal resident of Spain, you get the right to visit other Schengen countries without restriction (but not to live or work in them). This will cover you in Italy, but you may need to maintain a nominal address in Spain during his period).
There are no border controls between Schengen countries, so you just come and go as you like.

Once you become a legal resident of Spain, lots of other things apply. You will become liable to pay income tax in Spain. The usual rule is if you stay in a country 6 months, you pay tax there, and no longer have to pay tax in your previous place of residence. Be aware.

With all the fuss in the US currently about illegal immigrants, I am surprised you did not realise other countries had similar laws.

You have really boxed yourself in. I cannot believe you could have missed the Schengen zone discussion on all the web sites. All governments include the US are getting very touchy about people who over stay visas. It is the whole immigration, illegal aliens, etc. paranoid that is grabbing the world.

I don't know where you are in Spain but you need to hit the closest US consulate or the Embassy. Everyone above is advising you to go to a Spanish consulate or embassy. There are no Spanish consulates or embassy in Spain. Get to a US consulate or the embassy. They are there to help US citizens who are in trouble and you are in big trouble. This will not be the first time that they will have seen this problem. But you may have to accept the fact that you will have to go home after 90 days. All most all immigration policies between countries tend to be reciprocal. In other words, if the US makes a Spanish traveler do X, then Spain will require the same of the US traveler. The US is pretty rigid on making tourists obtain the proper visa prior to entering and not after they get into the US. My guess is that Spain will do the same.

Someone recently posted that it took close to six month to get the proper visa for a long term stay in Italy. Lots of banking statements showing assets, insurance policies, etc. I think even a marriage license. And records that you probably do not have quick access to being in Spain.

Zoe also had a good suggestion of contacting the Italy consulate or embassy in Spain. I am just guessing but maybe the one long shot you might have would be to apply for a long term stay visa in Italy while you are still in Spain. Again only the US embassy or consulate can provide information. We all are just guessing.

Good luck and don't waste any more time here. Time is not your friend.

The idea of postponing and returning to Italy later seems to be the most feasible. Hopefully, you can negotiate this with the apartment owner and the school. If after 90 days in Spain (not three months) you leave and spend 90 days outside the Schengen zone, you will then be able to return to Italy for 90 days. Be careful not to spend one minute past the 90 days or you'll be barred for a period of time.

One other thing: When counting days, both the day of arrival and the day of departure are counted. So arriving on August 13 and departing on August 31 would be 19 days, not 18.

ufff!... tough cookie.

Rules are rules and in many cases, ours are far stricter than yours.

Have a read at this interesting post to explore potential options... and DO CHECK with a lawyer before doing anything. Just Google for a list (use "barcelona extranjeria inmigracion abogados"). Asking any embassy/consulate will likely be useless, as bureaucrats everywhere are not known precisely for creative thinking.

Anyway, do check with a lawyer, perhaps there's a creative way of bypassing this hurdle, perhaps getting out of the Schengen area, but not necessarily back to the US, for a few days then applying for a VISA again... Remember: Europe is not a monolithic entity, it's 29 countries -soon to be 28 :)- and while there are common rules, there is also lots of specific legislation in each country. Each country is sovereign.

.......That doesn't mean, of course, you wouldn't be reprimanded and maybe issued a fine when you tried to return home.........

I really don't think that is appropriate advice. We know from this site that a young lady overstayed one day (thinking 3 months instead of 90 days) was fined 500E and missed her flight home resulting in a new expensive ticket. Someone else reported that he overstayed about two weeks and was banned for two years from returning plus the fine. Last year we were we leaving France the passport agent did not find my entry stamp quickly but did find a year old entry stamp and his tone quickly changed with a bunch of rapid questions about when I can in, where, etc., finally on third time through the passport he found the entry stamp in a corner of a page. He was not friendly at the end. In the future I am going to clearly id my entry stamps with a sticky note.

I not sure what they would do if they found you had overstayed by 90+ days. I think it would be expensive and very inconvenient.

Well said, Frank. Bravo!

Our Italian friends told us not to bother with applying for a visa since there are so many illegals here. That is not the kind of people we are, and I would not want to jeopardize future travel by trying the system. We should never advise anyone to break the law.

You certainly should investigate, but you have several things working against you.

You are in Country, typically Visas are only granted to enter, not to extend stays.

Despite the Schengen Agreement, from Spains point of view, they see no need to grant you a Visa as you will only be there 3 months, which is allowed under the Schengen agreement. They are umlikely to grant you a Visa so you can move to Italy.

Much the same for Italy, the three months fit into the limits of the Schengen Agreement, the fact that you have no days left for the time you plan there is not a concern to them. That said, stranger things have happened and they may entertain a visa. If Financial resources are not an issue, you might approach an Italian visa as a six month stay, they may look at that as more typical. Keep in mind you will need to show proof of financial resources, medical coverage, etc. more than just showing up as on a tourist visa.

Thank you everyone for your input and advice it's all greatly appreciated. We haven't gotten as far as getting a car yet since we are in Barcelona and having a car here would be more of a hassle. We were hoping to either somehow drive or take train to Italy after our 3 mo th commitment here in Spain. When Taking the train will they ask for a passport? I'm in the process of looking for an immigration lawyer preferably an Italian one since that was our next destination. I truly feel like a fool for not having known the visa rule here in Europe. I truly thought the 90 day rule pertained to each country individually Spain (90) then Italy (90) that is why we arranged our stay as 180 days but I did not realize they are both considered the same in the sense of 90 day limit together. I do feel foolish and very depressed since we were looking forward to celebrating Christmas in Italy. If all this becomes to grueling we may just have to take off to another country perhaps in Latin or South America for the remaining 3months since our house back home has been rented to a family until February. What a mess we are in. I am currently looking for an Italian Immigration Lawyer in the hopes of saving this trip. To answer an above question I have international health insurance for our family.

ivy, - is that your name? - it is easier to relate to a name - it would be good if we could help you all to enjoy your European adventure, have time for the children, and get on with things in your life instead of spending the time worrying and trying to solve a very difficult problem.

Laurel, who answered the twin thread of this one, is really quite knowledgeable in the quest of Italian visas.

The one thing I have learned over the years is that bureaucracy usually does things by the book but very rarely does surprise folks and skis off-piste. So while it is exceedingly unlikely that you will find an easy answer there may be one official who may take pity on you. For that I wish you good fortune.

It may help if we knew a bit more of your circumstances. If, for example, you are independently wealthy, rather than heading to central or south America for 90 days you could have 90 or 95 days in a non-Schengen European country and then the 90 in Italy.

Are you or your husband/wife working? Are you retired?

Regarding your question about having your passport checked on the trip to Italy. That's sailing pretty close to the wind, and the Community Guidelines forbid discussing how to evade or break a law, and reading between the lines it sounds like you, good upright people, are considering becoming illegal overstayer criminals. That cannot be discussed here...

Countries all around Europe, and in North America too, are becoming very strict about who is in their country, particularly in the current climate of fear. Schengen countries have the right - which they have sometimes recently used - to temporarily close their borders, check individuals or groups of individuals or entire streams of people crossing the borders. This is mostly as a result of recent terrorism and mass migration.

While the borders may be open today nobody can predict what may happen in the weeks, days, or hours before or during your trip.

I strongly suggest that you consider only legal ways to complete the experience for the twins.

Good luck, and please keep us in the loop.

You could consider changing your plans and spending the second 90 days (NOT 3 months, as you keep referring to the Schengen time limit) in England. You would still be in Europe and could probably still spend Christmas in Italy, if you are in England from November (that will give you some days to travel within Schengen within the 180-day cycle). Be very careful about the math.

Ivy, You will almost certainly not be able to buy a car.
You would have to register it in your name (but you are not legally a resident, no Spanish ID card), get insurance (same problem) and you may even need a Spanish licence.
If you try and sell a Spanish registered car in Italy, you face another problem, you would have to re-register it in Italy and possible pay import taxes. You may be able to lease a car as a tourist.

There are no checks on borders between Schengen countries, that is the purpose of Schengen, to make it easier for locals. Trains do not stop at borders, and there is just a sign by the side of roads. This is also why Schengen has the side-effect of having a limit for non-Schengen/EU citizens that applies collectively, because there is no way to check how long you are in each country.
But, there is nothing to stop police doing a random (or targetted) ID check 100 metres over the border, and that is what is sometimes done on main traffic routes as a result of the current refugee problem.
But, DO NOT try and overstay and hope you are not caught. As others said, you would end up with a fine, expulsion, a ban and a criminal record.

Laurel, who lives in Italy, has given the definitive answer on being able to obtain a visa as the same question is on the Italy forum: https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/italy/help-need-advice-on-staying-total-6months-in-spain-italy-asap-07049b13-b410-4438-8133-9425c23aff7a

So that question is done and hopefully you can get a consulate appointment in the States in time to take advantage of Italy. Now, as Nigel says, how to make your time in Spain enjoyable and a less shocking learning experience.

It's amazing the feedback on this community board. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge with me. As mentioned above Laurel did have expierence with this I did read her comment to my post. I posted my problem in both the Spain and Italy board. Nigel I most certainly want to only proceed with our situation legally, my question about passport checking on trains was a curiosity on how the system works here., although I understand how that may have come across. I am sorry. Thank you for the information on the car, that option is definitely out. To answer a previous question above NO I am not independently wealthy although that would be nice. I am just a wife, a mother of 4 yr old twins who was looking to immerse my children in 2 different cultures for the language, for the education for the diff type of foods and friends they would make. To broaden their minds, broaden their world and help shape who they become. This is all with good intentions. My husband is fully on board with this idea and therefore put his work aside to explore this once in a lifetime opportunity. An opportunity that would be missed once my children begin attending full time school for the rest of the upcoming years. We planned on leaving the US for a 5.5 months NO more than that time frame since my husband will have to commit to his business and my children's school back home will be waiting for them. So 5.5months is what we have no more and no less. The idea was 1/2 the time in Spain and the 2nd half in Italy. We will be ok with our Spain plans but now knowing our limits here we will have to figure out where else to go. This is a once in a life time chance and I fully Want to take advantage of this opportunity if not here in Europe then perhaps we pick up and go to Latin or South America. My original goal was for my kids to continue working on their Spanish so perhaps another Spanish speaking country would be nice. The idea of changing our plans is also very stressful since we will be losing the money we spent in Italy and spending more to make these adjustments - it's truly upsetting. I haven't given up my quest to stay but at least going elsewhere is another option. I suppose it wouldn't be a big deal to return home if only we had our home available to us. We dont. It has been rented until Feb which is when we had planned to return from Italy. I know together we will find a solution and I appreciate everyone's time and efforts in this forum. Fingers crossed that I could find a good immigration lawyer that could figure something out for us although highly unlikely I suppose. If anyone has further information on this I would so appreciate it! I will keep you all posted.

Also, Chris and Nigel you both made excellent points on country check points and the possibility of closing borders etc.
There's a lot going on With refugees and immigration and safety. I appreciate your thoughts on these matters thank you!

Ivy... so sorry for your problem. I can only imagine your disappointment, however if you are forced to change your plans... if you want to continue the Spanish for your kids I can suggest traveling to Guatemala. The cost is so much less than Europe, so if you have to lose some money from your places in Italy it might be easier to take if you don't have to spend a fortune.
As for Guatemala... I have just returned from my 6th trip and it is an amazing country. I have taken 2 of my grandkids there and they both loved it, and went to Spanish school as well. I can give you all the details if you end up having to do that. I have stayed in hotels, as well as a guest house in Antigua... includes meals. It was very reasonable. It offers all the things you said you wanted for your children. Beautiful countryside, great food, amazing culture, colonial city Antigua, Lake Atitlan, Tikal, friendly people and Spanish school.

I hope you can work out your plan as expected, but if not definitely consider Guatemala.

(As many times as I have heard this Schengen rule here, I would have never known about it before my first few trips to Europe... )

You've received so much input, that I may have missed someone telling you the following. You can be caught as a violator when you are exiting a Schengen country. My daughter, who worked in study abroad, told us of a student who overstayed. She was arrested at the Brussels airport and fined 500 euros.

Ahhh ivy, so you say "My original goal was for my kids to continue working on their Spanish so perhaps another Spanish speaking country would be nice."... and you didn't happen to check that Barcelona is the capital of Catalonia -a small nation now under the Kingdom of Spain- which native language is Catalan, not Spanish --albeit the later is co-official too. Hence, the vehicular language at public schools is, therefore, Catalan, not Spanish. And that means that classes are mostly conducted in Catalan and Spanish is taught as a subject. Given your kids' age, you've enrolled them into what we call "parvulari" (nursery school, for 3 to 6 y.o.) and unless you've chosen one of the few private multilingual ones (where classes might be also taught in other languages, including Spanish), the same than above applies.

A summary of how the education system works in Catalonia: http://www.educacio.novaciutadania.bcn.cat/en/the-educational-system-in-spain-and-catalonia_582

And if you'd like a bit more of background on this:
http://ensenyament.gencat.cat/web/.content/home/departament/publicacions/monografies/llengua-catalana-model-exit/llengua-catalana-model-exit-ANG.pdf

Yet, if this is news to you, it shouldn't worry you, in Catalonia we have some 15% of the population of non-Catalan origin (rest of Spain plus over 120 other different nationalities, including the US), which obviously don't have Catalan as their mother tongue, and their kids are enrolled in our schools and graduate from them without any major problem thanks to the linguistic immersion programs in place that help non-Catalan speakers to quickly catch up, with a very high degree of success.

Furthermore, Catalan is a language from the same family tree than French, Italian, Spanish and Portuguese, meaning that they all share common roots: the Latin language. Thus, a speaker of one language is likely to grasp another of the same family with relative easiness, especially at younger ages. Last year I had a very good friend from Moscow living in Girona (north of Catalonia) for half a year and both her 6 y.o. and her 3 y.o. attended public school. None spoke anything but Russian, yet after six months they both had started to grasp very basic Catalan and when playing with other kids they were able to communicate, especially Sasha, the older. Just sayin'

This all is to say that, while the objective of "continue working on their Spanish" might not be fully achieved, they'll surely have an unforgettable life experience by learning yet another language.

Yet if you have enrolled them in a "language" school instead, then of course the above does not apply, my comment is intended only if you're talking about "regular" school -since you didn't specify in your original post.

Thank you all again. Terry I appreciate your help and thank you for sharing your expierence of Guatemala with me. I've heard great things about Ecuador. I will look into Guatemala too. Enric, ah yes the Catalan vs. Spanish in Barcelona. I am quiet aware of Barcelona's main language being Catalan. I struggled with this issue before coming and decided to come knowing this. The girls are enrolled in a private Montessori school that teaches in English mostly then Catalan and offers some Spanish. Catalan is not ideal for my goals but everyone speaks Spanish too so I know socially they will hear other children speaking Spanish and will pick it up. I also speak Spanish. Thank you for sharing your knowledge on this. Also, NO I do not plan to exceed our stay here past the 90 days so there will be no issues departing. Has anyone else travelled to South America?

Has anyone else travelled to South America?

Yes, but beware that there are not-so-cheap per person entry fees to enter many countries, such as Brazil and Argentina, that will add to the overall trip cost. When I went to Argentina (which is otherwise very affordable), the Visa entry cost about $160, which I paid at the airport for my 12 day trip. Internal flights (had to take a few due to country size) were also quite costly due to lack of competition among carriers and the use of (largely) a single carrier.

http://www.southamericaliving.com/visas-fees-in-south-america-for-u-s-canadian-australian-and-uk-passport-holders/

I would also consider Merida, Mexico on the western Yucatan coast. Very safe, lovely colonial city with lots of Spanish language schools. I'm not sure if they're geared toward adults though, but Merida has a very solid reputation for its schools.

At your kids' age, I'm just not sure how much living abroad and going to Spanish schools will make as lasting an impression as you hope (I would also think that it would be not too difficult to put them in Spanish immersion classes right here in the US for a longer time period with more impact). They seem a bit young and the time period is too short (6 months is really not that long in the grand scheme of things). By the time I was 8, I had lived in two other countries (outside of my birthplace) and can barely remember many details even though I was put into two foreign language immersion classes and had to pick things up quickly. What shaped me considerably more was studying abroad in college and traveling later in life. When I was too young, I simply could not make sense of it all, or to give it the proper appreciation..although like other kids, I adjusted fairly well and quickly.

Thanks again for your input. We would not be entering into another country with a visa but instead with US passports as tourist so it shouldn't be an issue. Regarding the girls I would have to respectfully disagree with you as I as well travelled extensively as a child and know it has formed who I am. We are not doing this In The hopes of them remembering our trips together as they are too young but to broaden their scope of the world and help form who they become. I know traveling as a child I have fond memories some vivid but still a memory. I also have a great deal of respect and interest in the world and its diff cultures. I feel greatful for the opportunity my parents gave me as a child. Not many have these experiences for whatever reason but I choose to give the same opportunities to my children regardless the age. In fact, at this young of age is the most important age for language and that is my goal in the end. Thanks again for sharing!!

It looks like what I said about Argentina (the pricey entry fee) no longer applies due to a very recent change - great news. I loved traveling there, I would highly recommend it. Very good value country and incredibly diverse and beautiful landscapes.
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2016/03/28/argentina-reciprocity-fee-us-citizens/

ivy,

If you're planing to change your second three months to South America, be sure to check the State Department website for whichever country you choose......

https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings.html

Crime (and especially violent crime) can be a problem in some south and central American countries. In addition, current conditions in parts of Venezuela are desperate in some ways, and there are shortages of basic foods. Borders were closed for some time, but recently re-opened so local residents are now able to travel across the border to buy groceries.

You might also look at spending the second portion of your trip in Croatia (you'll have to check their entry requirements). You should be able to find Italian language schools there, and it's close to Italy so taking short trips shouldn't be a problem. However you may have to leave Spain before your 90 days has elapsed, in order to give yourselves some time to spend in Italy.

Good luck!

Taking lots of photos will help your children 'remember' their experience while in Europe. But I have to agree with you wholeheartedly... every experience that a child has (especially when they are young) has an impact on who they are. I am always sad when I hear people who say they won't take their kids to Disney till they are old enough to remember it. My daughter lives in Fl. so 2 of my grandkids are there all the time.... and they think the 'magic' is real! So, although your children might not remember every detail, you will:) It's just like reading to your kids... it all influences who they will become.

Edit...you have a whole array of people here who are waiting for the next chapter of your trip! You are the new 'reality stars' of the RS Travel Forum:)

As if traveling wasn't hard enough! Best of luck!