9 Days in Spain... Madrid, Toledo, Cordoba, Seville, Ronda, Granada??

My sense was that bullfighting is seasonal and might not be happening in November. You may get other information from other sources, but this Website (http://gospain.about.com/od/bullfightinginspain/qt/Bullfighting-In-Spain-Schedule-and-Tickets.htm) indicates the season in Sevilla just wrapped up a couple of weeks ago. I don't think bullfighting has a playoffs or a Super Bull ;-)

It's great you're spending a night in Toledo. On our trip last November, we had only a day and visited Toledo as a daytrip from Madrid. On the other hand, we had a whole week in Madrid and left with lots still to see and do, and it looks like you're just using Madrid as an airport tranfer point on this trip.

Any time in any part of Spain is better than no time at all, but you could argue for staying longer in any of the places you list. If your time is limited and you're determined to at least hit each of those places, then your schedule may dictate how much time you can spend anywhere. You'll see impressive things, regardless!

Technically doable, but way too fast IMO.

I question the need for a car on this trip. Everything looks easily connected by train or bus, and a car is a huge hassle in the cities mentioned. Would be nice to use if you were touring around the hill towns, but it looks like you just have Ronda which has transit connections. Where is the car parked? Do all your hotels have parking? I'd go Madrid - train to Toledo - train to Cordoba - train to Seville - then maybe a car for Seville to Ronda to Granada (in case you want to go off into smaller towns or if the bus times don't work), return the car in Granada first thing when you arrive, then fly or train back.

Basically, Friday is of limited value (get in at 12, get through customs, get to your hotel, suffer jet lag, you basically have a few tired hours. Then you check out the next AM, with a few hours in Madrid.
A day in Toledo, with an overnight, is good
Two days in Cordoba is way overkill, IMO. I'd add that time to Seville (or Madrid), but I may be biased. Cordoba = one day for Mesquita and town overview on a broad trip like this.
Basically one day in Seville is insanely short. Take the day from Cordoba and add it to Seville. Maybe even do Cordoba as a day trip from Seville, so you have more evening time in Seville and less moving around.
A day in Ronda is OK.
Two days in Granada is fine. More is better, but two is OK.
Can you fly from Granada back to Madrid, or even Granada to Germany? This would help.

Basically = more time Seville and Madrid. Less for Cordoba. I would skip Ronda for Granada, but I love Granada more than anywhere else on earth so really you're probably OK there.

I know very little about bullfighting, sorry!

Shows/tours = I just (last week) had an excellent experience at Casa de la Memoria flamenco show in Seville. Highly recommend. On a prior visit I also did a tapas tour with azahar food tours, and would recommend without question.

Hotels = really depends on budget. In general, in Seville I like staying in Barrio Santa Cruz. In Toledo, in the old town, maybe near Plaza Zocodover. Granada = near Plaza Nueva OR up by the Alhambra if that's your main focus. Madrid = central, maybe somewhere within an easy walk from Puerta del Sol or Plaza Mayor or the Palace. So I can recommend areas, but without a budget/priorities, specific places are tough to suggest.

Places= the Alhambra is unmissable, but you have to book like two months ahead. Stay on top of that. Don't miss the Albaycin neighborhood in Granada - Rick Steves calls it out as a bit unsafe, but I never felt that way. Use common sense and go. In Seville, the obvious Cathedral and Alcazar are both well worth it. Other than that, just wander Barrio Santa Cruz. I don't have any especially unique places to recommend - the biggies are impressive enough not to miss and you don't have time for second-tier sights.

Please don't take this too hard, but this is not a good plan on many levels. First, this would not be an easy trip to do by car. The cities you plan to visit are not car friendly to say the least. You will spend most of your time in the car driving, when a high-speed train will take about 1/3 the time. You will spend most of your time in each city looking for a place to park (at an expensive rate). If the car is necessary because of mobility issues, you'll need to rethink how and where you are going to accommodate that. Otherwise, skip the car and take the train (mostly high-speed AVE).

Next, you have 7 major destinations in less than 9 days. That is barely a day each, and doesn't factor in the time spent checking out of a hotel, finding and checking into a new hotel and orienting yourself to a new place. Even a 2-3 hour trip in transit time takes a full half day or more in reality.

While a couple of your destinations can be lightly covered in a day, or even as a daytrip, most are several-day stops. Madrid is 2-3 days if you expect to see the art museums (which is the main point of seeing Madrid in my opinion). Toledo can be done as a daytrip from Madrid, though it certainly is worth at least one night and part of an extra day. Cordoba is often just a daytrip and just seeing the Mezquita is certainly worth it. But one can easily fill a couple days there with an overnight. Sevilla is typically a 2-3 day visit minimum. Ronda can be a daytrip from Sevilla or an overnight. Granada needs a couple of nights since the Alhambra is a full half day. It's not my favorite city but I wouldn't consider staying less than 2 nights there.

I would say that you could probably squeeze most of it in if you take the train (faster transit times) and skip Ronda. Toledo could be a daytrip from Madrid (an easy 30 minute train or 45 min bus ride). Cordoba can be a half day visit on your way to Sevilla (bags can be stored in the bus station across from the train station). You might want to fly from Granada to Madrid to catch your connecting flight to Germany (saves that extra travel time and night in Madrid). There is no high-speed AVE between Granada and Madrid and they are quite a distance from each other. It would still be a whirlwind tour, but at least manageable.

Is your father a triathlete? He will not be amused with your ambition otherwise.

I understand the desire to see everything. But seriously consider doing just the cities on the AVE, high-speed train line.

From Madrid, go straight to Seville, spend at least two nights there, then work your way back north--at your dad's pace--leaving at least two nights in Madrid (three is better) as well. No reason to have a car for this itinerary,... saving you money and keeping you packed light and tight for the big move to Germany!

I am in Douglas's camp. My first rec would be fly into Madrid and home from Malaga. It has an international airport. We did a similar trip a couple years ago and it was a quick hit for nine days - Madrid-3 nights; Cordoba-1 night; Seville -3; Granada, 2; Malaga dpt. And that was a rushed trip. We did it via train and bus. Seville needs more than a day. I would dump the car as it has little value for you with the areas you want to hit. Ronda would be the only place that the car could be useful.

Your trip will have a lot of driving, checking in and out of hotels, and time traveling around and around looking somewhere to park the car. Not well thought out.

Bullfighting season is March to Oct.

Having researched a similar although much slower driving trip, I agree with everyone that this plan is not workable. The distances are too far for openers.

In late November, the "daylight" hours will be about 9.5, with the sun rising around 08:15 and setting around 17:45. Some of the things you want to see might close early. Others might not happen or be open at all at the time you are there.

And...I wouldn't want to be driving after dark several nights. It's bad enough arriving in a new place in the daylight, especially by car.

Are you arriving in Madrid from within Europe? If not, both of you are going to need some rest at first.

My advice is to rethink this in terms of what you really want to see, when and how it's available to be seen and plan a train and bus itinerary around that.

Well, you have lots of advice here, and the consensus is that your itinerary is too ambitious and you would be better off with public transportation. The trains in Spain are high speed now and don't cost much.

People have their biases about which cities are best, usually based on whether they had a good time when they last visited. You will find plenty to do in all the cities you'd like to visit, so relax and set an easier pace.

Fly into Madrid and spend two nights there so you can kick the jet lag before you need to travel again. Take a train to Cordoba or Toledo, not both, and stay two nights. Take a train to Seville and stay three nights. Take a day trip to Ronda while you're staying in Seville. It is a very interesting little town, and going there will give you the experience of a small city. Move on to Granada and stay one night and then take a train to Madrid. That will consume your nine days and get you to some great places.

Finally, let me recommend using TripAdvisor to pick places to stay and book those hotels now. There's nothing worse than trying to book a hotel when you arrive and are encumbered by luggage. TripAdvisor has some great maps, so pick a hotel that's near the train station so that you can walk from the station to the hotel. You can also sort hotels by location, price and rating. That's a good way to look for bargains in exactly the right spot.

You can also book your train trips now and save money.

Have a great trip.

Although you didn't put it in your profile to display under your name, it sounds like you live in Germany. Would you recommend that anyone spend one night in Berlin or Cologne or Dresden? And you have to skip something in just 8 days, but why are you skipping Barcelona? Since you live in Europe, you have a good shot at visiting Spain again. I've been to Germany five times, and I still haven't seen every region. I would never spend fewer than three nights in Madrid.

It would be stupid of me to say that Cordoba and Toledo are "alike". But on such a short schedule you need to choose one or the other - perhaps based on the specific history of one or the other as being of more interest to the two of you. Nobody is ever sorry they went to Ronda, but staying in Seville, a day trip to Carmona (or, if you insist of going farther, Arcos) is an adequate substitute, given the pressure of your time.

It also sounds like you are using some sort of discount airline that makes it much cheaper to schlep back to Madrid to fly home. That's a waste of touring time, of which you don't have enough. As suggested by others, this itinerary is to be conducted at the pace of running a marathon.

You have received excellent counsel from all the replies. Please, please, please do not drive as it is not a wise expenditure of your available time. Train travel is convenient, comfortable and expeditious for the destinations you listed. Purchase second class tickets on the high speed trains and you recieve the equal of business class on airlines. Also keep in mind traveling in November means reduced daylight hours so do you really want to searching for unfamiliar locales, road signs, hotels, parking etc, in the dark? Bus travel is also excellent and comfortable. Do not think of USA bus transportation in comparison to the quality offered in Spain. Invest time in learning how to wisely use the TENFE train website.

If it was me......... (You indicate having nine nights for travel)
Travel with absolute minimum of luggage. This is the best travel advice possible.
Arrive Madrid and catch AVE to Seville.
Three nights in Seville. With three nights in Seville you could take a bus day trip to Ronda or you could take the train for a day trip to Cordoba. Seville is a great place to catch a flemenco show. Or you could stay two nights in Seville and then.......
Catch bus and goto Ronda. Oldest bullring in Spain is in Ronda. At a minimum you should take the tour. Do web search on potential of attending bull fight.
One night in Ronda
Travel to Granada. Be sure and learn how/when to preorder tickets for Alhambra. Big mistake not to preorder tickets!
Two nights in Granada.
Travel to Madrid. Old town Madrid is relatively small and predominently focused on art, but there are excellent day trip venues. I accept this is a long time to be in Madrid, but I am advocating you do day trips from Madrid (including Toledo).
In order to reduce travel stress and gain travel effectiveness We strive to spend more nights in one place and take day trips.
At this time of year we strive to travel during the evenings.
However, keep in mind Spain starts at 10 p.m. So max your experience with a committment to live according to the Spanish culture's clock and stay up late.
Enjoy a great journey with your Dad! Make great memories!

Do some practical planning. Use the Spanish train website renfe.com to see train schedules. Take into account about 1/2 hour to get from your hotel to the train station and another 1/4 hour (at least) at the train station to find your track and go through security checks. Then you need 1/2 hour after the train to get to your new hotel. Whether the room is ready or not, you can't start touring until you've dropped off your luggage. Figure in packing/unpacking, checking in/checking out and then you'll have a better idea of how much sightseeing time you really have.

If you want to rent a car, use the Via Michelin website to estimate driving times. Allow extra time to pick up the car and to return it.

Thank you all so much for your responses!!!

I am an American living in California. I mentioned Germany because we are going for one day before we fly back to the States... just long enough to go to a Christmas Market.

My father is pretty fit, but I agree that I'm trying to do too much!! So here's what I've got now, using the TRAIN instead of renting a car:

Friday- Fly into Madrid and head straight to Seville
Saturday- Seville
Sunday- Day trip to Ronda from Seville via bus
Monday- Seville, evening train to Granada
Tuesday- Granada
Wednesday- Granada, evening train to Madrid
Thursday-Madrid
Friday- Madrid
Saturday- Madrid
Sunday- Depart for Germany

I would like to spend an overnight in EITHER Cordoba or Toledo either in the beginning (and shift down the itinerary by one day) or at the end (on the way back from Granada... really only an option for Toledo). What do you think?

I take suggestions very seriously as I really don't like using guidebooks.... My reasoning is that it makes me sad to see and read about all of the other wonderful things that I won't have time to see! I'd rather get suggestions from forums and people that have gone. Then, when I get there, I have no expectations of how a place will look and it's just magical to see it in person after only hearing about it.

Your train and/or air schedule and timetable might suggest whether to stay in Cordoba or Toledo at the beginning or the end. If you aren't planning on heading into downtown Madrid when you first land, is there an option of continuing to Sevilla by plane, and not even exiting the airport? That might save you time, if you weren't planning on stopping in Toledo/Cordoba on your way to Sevilla.

I appreciate your thoughts about guidebooks versus first-hand travel encounters, but Rick Steves' guidebook in particular has handy information about certain things, such as getting a successful entry to the Alhambra in Granada, if that's on your agenda (and if you're going to Granada it should be).

I believe your latest itinerary is great. Personally I would do toledo at the end of the trip as a day trip.mif you were traveling with a lover I would recommend overnight in Toledo.

The new itinerary is very good. As far as day trips, I would pick one (cordoba or toledo) and, if toledo, do it as a day from Madrid at the end of the trip. If Cordoba, then you could do it from Madrid, or add a day to Seville and do it from there.

Both are worthwhile, its really a matter of preference. I'd do Toledo, but you need to see what interests you. Cordoba has one world class sight, something you can't see anywhere else (Mesquita), other good sights, and a nice but not spectacular town. Toldedo has a very impressive sight (Cathedral), but not as rare as the mesquita. However, I strongly prefer the sense of being in Toledo. It's more...atmospheric to me. But really, pick one and you really can't go wrong.

So where in Germany are you flying to from Madrid, exactly when, and are you sure that the Christmas market will be open when you are there?

When you say Thanksgiving...do you mean less than a month from now? If so, you really want to nail this down and reserve longer trains ahead (much cheaper). Also, the Alhambra often sells out far ahead. I'd check into that as soon as you know your days. Don't be surprised if it's sold out. There might be ways around that (guided tours, the Granada tourist pass), but with like 3 weeks left it could be a problem. Hotels are likely to be fine if you aren't picky. If you have very specific needs, then book ASAP.

If you mean next year...enjoy fiddling until it's perfect but if it's this year book everything you want ASAP.

saw,

Your revised Itinerary looks much better than the first version, but I'd have to spend some time looking more closely at it before offering more detailed comments.

A few thoughts and comments.....

• I'm not sure it will be possible to see a bull fight on this trip. The oldest bull ring in Spain is in Ronda, but I believe the fights are held there in September. You could check online for fights in Sevilla.
• How are you planning to get from Madrid to Germany, and which city in Germany will you be going to?
• You're only going to have about a day and a half in Granada, so plan your visit to the Alhambra carefully. You might consider getting a hotel near Plaza Nueva, as it's easy to access the Bus that goes up the hill to the Alhambra (try Hotel Anacapri). It's easy to walk down, or you could take a Taxi if necessary. As I recall, there's info on the transportation on the Alhambra website.
• You might give some thought on how much of the Alhambra you want to see, as there are three main parts: the Alcazaba, the Generalife gardens and the main part of the palace. I thought the gardens were well worth a visit, but could have skipped the Alcazaba. The main palace is the highlight, but note that your entry to the palace will be at a preset time, so don't be late!
• If you have time in the evening during your stay in Granada, you might consider attending a gypsy flamenco show at Venta el Gallo (ask your hotel for more information, as they should be able to arrange that). I found that to be a highlight of my trip last year.
• When finalizing your plans, be sure to allow adequate time for travel between locations. That won't just include the train times, but also getting to and from your hotels, checking-in, etc. Also allow some time for "chores" such as laundry.

Good luck with your planning!

I like your idea of not stopping in Madrid on arrival. I would stop in Cordoba (it's on the way to Seville) overnight. The Mezquita is not to be missed and Cordoba is really lovely at night, quiet streets, dotted by lively restaurants. I would add this day by subtracting one from Madrid.

I would also encourage you to visit the Alhambra both at night and during the day. The Nasrid Palaces are very different at night. Well worth a double dose!

I can't add much with all these great answers, but I just got back from a similar trip and I'd say Toledo is not worth a night, plus the hotel selection will be limited. I liked the cathedral there and the El Greco museum, and it was charming to see, but it was so touristy and hard to walk around and just not great, in my opinion. I also can't imagine driving there!

I also don't think you're leaving enough time for Madrid, personally. It deserves a full day if only for the Prado. I was disappointed by the Alhambra and am glad I only stayed one night in Granada (Granada the town is also not that great--I MUCH preferred Seville in terms of hotels, restaurants, and even just aesthetics). We stayed the night in Granada, did the Alhambra all morning, then took the train to Seville.

I'd also avoid so much driving, only because I think parking will be a nightmare in a lot of these places. We took the train wherever we could and then rented a car only to drive to Portugal and back. It's a LOT less stressful that way.

I skipped Cordoba because I felt like it was redundant to see the Alhambra and the Mezquita when I don't know a lot about Arab culture or architecture and care more about traditional monuments. But of course you may be different.

My husband and I flew into Madrid, stayed there 4 nights (which was actually more than enough), train to Granada for 1 night, train to Seville after the Alhambra the next day, Seville for 2 nights, rented car and drove to the Algarve for 3 nights, returned car to Seville, and train back to Madrid for the evening. Honestly, it was way too much running around. We lived out of suitcases and were constantly packing and unpacking. I wish I had cut out Granada--as I said, the city itself was disappointing especially after I saw Seville, and the Alhambra was beautiful but honestly, got to be kind of repetitive in my opinion--here's a beautiful tile moasic, here's a beautiful garden, here's a lovely fountain. But it's the #1 landmark in Spain so I guess you have to see it. I'd just try to cut SOMEthing out or you will be run ragged by the end! At least, I was! The Algarve was our vacation from our vacation and it was much needed.

Have a great time!

Interestingly, my opinion is almost completely opposite from Scarlett (post above mine). That is in no way a criticism of another's opinion - simply an interesting note and an illustration that you really can't know before you get there which places will resonate best with you. Do the best research you can, see what you think will be best, but some places will hit you more than others. Just the way it is.

check out my trip report - just went to Barcelona, Seville, Carmona, Cordoba, Ronda, Granada.....had a car for 3 days.....my first comment is you need to at least 2 nights in Seville, can get by with 1 night in Cordoba......

I personally think you should choose north or south for a nine-day trip.

Skipping Malaga is a good choice. The Costa del Sol is mostly golf courses and condos, as many expats as Spaniards.

For Thanksgiving, I'd go south focusing on Seville for 3 nights and Granada for 3 nights. Round it out by spending a night in one or more of the following: Jerez, Ronda, Tarifa, Cordoba.

With a rental, you could do a loop from Granada to Seville via Ronda (one night) with a stop in Antequera to see the neolithic tombs and museum. From Ronda, you can get up early, spend half a day touring Gibraltar (take a taxi tour for the most efficient use of time) then stay a night in Tarifa (a nice town on the coast even if you don't plan a ferry trip to Morocco). In the morning tour the Baelo Claudio Roman ruins (26 km from Tarifa) then continue on to Jerez. You want time to tour a couple of Bodegas and stay a night before continuing to Seville.

I also thought Ronda had some unique pieces that made it worth a visit. In retrospect, I think it was a good choice. You can tour the bullfight museum in Ronda, but there are no bullfights in November. The season starts in Seville during Semana Santa and ends with the last couple of Corridas in Madrid in October.

Plan a full day at Granada, there are a handful of unique places to visit inside the Alhambra so consider it more than one major sight. Many miss the Arab baths. If you don't see them elsewhere (and you won't have time to) this is a chance to see some while at the Alhambra.

Dinner time is late. Tapas start at 7:30 or 8 and dinner isn't until 9 or 9:30. You can find cafeterias or McD's, KFC, Burger King, etc. if you really need to eat outside the normal times.

Siesta is practiced widely. Each place has it's own time starting at about 11:30 to 1pm and going until maybe 2 to 4 pm. Be careful planning to visit a sight in the middle of the day without checking ahead to ensure they'll be open.

We did most of our driving early, trying to get to any day stops by 11 to beat the siesta.

Evening shows should include a Sambra performance in a cave home in Grenada and a Flaminco performance in Seville.

Finally, even for your short trip a day trip to Cordoba (perhaps as an intermediate train stop between Seville and Madrid) is well worth it. The Mesquita is unique and the surrounding quarter is worth strolling.

I think your revised itinerary is much improved. The loop you are making is pretty efficient. Between Sevilla and Granada you can take the train or a bus. Both are about the same amount of time; busses run far more frequently. I like the other's suggestions to stop off in Cordoba that first night on your way to Sevilla. It shortens your first day and gives you the chance to see the Mezquita, which is well worth it. You can pull a day at the end from Madrid to account for the extra time. Daytrips are also nice because you can decide on the fly; no need to pre-purchase tickets to Ronda or Toledo as those are short trips (and you can easily take the bus to both of those). So if you are energetic, then go; if too tired, spend your time where you are.

Do pre-purchase your Alhambra tickets as soon as you have your date locked in. You choose either a morning or afternoon shift and will get a specific time for the Nasrid Palace portion (you MUST be on time for that or won't be let in). The other ticketed areas at the site are valid for the duration of your shift. You can spend more time there outside the ticketed areas (restaurants, a museum, gift shops, etc...). You might also enjoy the night tour which shows the Nasrid Palace lit up (a separate ticket and not in lieu of the regular visit). Buy long-haul train tickets in advance on the renfe website to get deep discounts (if still available). Use Paypal to make the purchase as credit cards don't work well.

Im a fan of Barcelona. If I were you, and this was your first trip to Spain, I would do four days in madrid, 2ith daytrips, and five in barcelona, taking the AVE between them. Or five days Madrid, four Barcelona. Or if you have been to Barcelona or want to see Seville a lot. 5 Madrid, 4 Seville. And dont fly in and out of the same city.