Lisbon, Porto, Seville and onto Barcelona

There is not a reasonable rail option between Porto and Seville; the trip would take over 12 hours. There are very few decent ground-transportation connections between Portugal and Spain. Check for flights on skyscanner.com.

Lisbon to Porto is easy by train.

Seville to Cordoba is much faster by AVE (express train) than by car.

I would not attempt Granada as a day-trip from Seville. It's too far away. You'll want a substantial amount of time at the Alhambra, and that is by no means the only worthwhile sight in Granada. There is now AVE service into Granada, so train is an option there. Probably preferable to driving since there would be no parking challenges.

I don't like dealing with airports mid-trip, but you're trying to cover a lot of ground in not much time. I'd at least take a look at flights from Granada to Barcelona.

Andalucia is likely still to be very, very hot in September.

Thank you acraven

Based on your recommendations, I will look at flights as soon as they open up. What's your thoughts on driving from Lisbon to Seville. I know its several hours but it would allow us to see things along the way knowing it could be an entire day.

My thought on some idea:

2 nights Lisbon
2 nights Porto
2 nights Seville possible 3 based on taking day trips to Cordoba and Grenada
2 nights in Valencia (Train to Valencia from Seville 5 hours and 36 minutes)
5 nights Barcelona (Train form Valencia to Barcelona)

This leaves me 2 nights to plug into the schedule.

Your input is appreciated

Use ViaMichelin.com for estimates of the driving time, keeping in mind that they do not include any time for stopping, getting lost, looking for parking, or dealing with the car-rental agency. The bigger issue for most us, though, would be the drop-charge for the one-way rental. It's usually hundreds of euros, and occasionally someone reports having been quoted a figure over €1000.

A two-night stay gives you just one full day and a few hours at a destination, which in my view is rarely enough time for a major city. I urge you to drop Valencia and use that time elsewhere. A third night in Seville is worth a great deal more than a night in Valencia, for example.

One day and a few hours is way too short for Lisbon and Seville; those are large cities where you will spend considerable time just moving from one sight to the next.

You are setting yourself up for a trip that has too much travel time (and hotel check-in/out time) and not enough being-there/sightseeing time. The proposed schedule means you will see less, not more.

Thank you very much. You bring up great points. Going to need and change some traveling ideas. The one good point. we are early risers so that does help with your point about A two-night stay gives us just one full day and a few hours at a destination. Valencia may just need to wait for another trip.

I can do the research but though I ask to see if you knew of any car services for taking a trip to the Black Madonna at Montserrat, Spain.

Thank you again for your great points and suggestions. Very helpful.

I haven't been to Montserrat yet, despite a number of trips to Barcelona. However, I know it's easy to teach by public transportation, beginning with a train departing from Placa d'Espanya. You can buy tickets right at the (underground) station that include the second transportation leg uphill; there are a couple of options for that part of the trip. Rick details the process in his book.

Although I'm sure you can find a private driver who will take you to Montserrat, it's possible there's no one on the forum who has traveled that way. It would be a lot more costly.

There are definitely bus tours available to Montserrat, but you'd want to be sure the timing meets your needs. I've seen a lot of bus-tour groups moving much faster than I would like if the sight was really important to me.

Definitely drop Valencia from the trip this time, and add more time to Lisbon (3-4 nights ideal) and Seville (same)

Thank you for your recommendations. Now planning becomes easier.

Safe travel on your next trips.

I agree about needing 3 or 4 nights for Lisbon and 3 or 4 nights for Seville.

I would not visit Granada as a day trip. It’s too far from Seville and makes for a very long day trip. To do the Alhambra justice, you need to spend a lot of time there savoring the beauty. Please don’t rush through the Alhambra.

You should purchase your Alhambra tickets as soon as they go on sale, usually 3 months in advance. They sell out quickly.

Do you have time to spend a night in Cordoba? It’s a wonderful city and seeing it as a day trip doesn’t do it justice. If you can’t stay overnight, then seeing Cordoba as a day trip is better than not seeing it at all.

I looked at your itinerary again, and it looks like you have 4 extra nights to play with if you drop Valencia.

So, perhaps add a night to Lisbon, add a night to Seville, and 2 nights for Granada. And visit Cordoba as a day trip.

kmkwoo and balso , appreciate your suggestions.

I think we may use Seville as are starting point for the entire trip and either take the train or even car to Lisbon and Porto and back to Seville. I like the idea time in both Grenada and Cordoba and flying into Barcelona. Just need to adjust the days. We plan going into this trip knowing taking a car reduce seeing some things based on time driving but we want to see some of the country that a passing train won't allow you to experience. Plus the idea in renting and returning the rental car to Seville helps keep cost down from what I've read from others. We can take the train while in Seville if it helps. If we miss something, just another reason to return in a couple of years when we plan touring most of Western Europa over 5 months. Retirement gift to my wife and me. Always open to other suggestions and ideas. Now need to start looking at lodging and what makes sense.

Use ViaMichelin.com for driving-time estimates, but understand that they do not include any stops whatsoever, getting lost, looking for parking, etc. While you can certainly enjoy driving around scenic areas, that time comes at the expense of time at your destinations.

Before getting too far along in planning your post-retirement trip, read up on the limited time US citizens can spend in the Schengen Zone without a long-stay visa, which is not easy to get if you just want to travel around. You will be limited to 90 Schengen days within any 180-day period, which on a 5-month trip to western Europe would require a lot of time in Ireland and the UK, countries not part of the Schengen Zone. That is doable, but it is best to understand the restrictions when you begin your planning rather than after you have an impossible itinerary roughed out.

Good luck with touring most of western Europe in 5 months. There's something interesting to see around every corner.

Essentially you are planning a triangle with the corners being Barcelona, Lisboa and Seville. I'm not sure if Sevilla is the best starting point because its airport is only regional - but, equally, if you've to change aeroplanes anyway after crossing the Atlantic, perhaps that doesn't matter.

Simply as one possibility, you could start in Barcelona (and see Montserrat, Spain as a very straightforward day trip), then fly to Granada. From there it is an easy rail connection to Cordoba, or you could drive via either one of the "white towns" or Ubeda. Then from Cordoba rail to Sevilla, from where you can fly to Oporto and then drive via Fatima south to Lisbon. I lay this out because you might want consider if you would like all this travelling in 15 days - too much for me, but it could be done; however I'd be exhausted!

Personally, I'd skip the Andalucia section this time and simply cover Barcelona & Portugal since that includes your "must sees". You can fly between them or, much better, if you stopped in Madrid after Barcelona, use the sleeper service between Madrid and Lisboa. Or vice versa. Alternatively, I'd include Seville, but not try to also include Granada or Cordoba and save them for next time.

We drove east from Lisbon with a stop in Evora and on to Seville. Evora to Seville is a lovely drive. 2 years ago the road had just be resurfaced, what a smooth ride. It was us in a car and 2 motorcycles banking the curves. Our goal was Seville. We had to miss the hiking trails and castle on the way.

We spent 15 days in Catalonia in May 2019 and we still missed sites due to heavy rain 3/15, closed, or HBO filming with drones.

With our travel priorities while in Portugal I could not fit Porto. Just like I could not fit Seville in past travels. I have many more examples of missed sites.

Nick has put forth excellent suggests. Although, the Alhambra is a must see site. My suggestions for Cities in Spain on a first trip are Madrid, Granada, Cordoba, and Seville. And if you have the time a short stay in Barcelona.

acraven. Thanks for the info regarding the Visa. Here I thought I had that covered. Not!

Nick, Great advice and will look at those options. Its getting to the point we go to 3 places and sit our butts down and just enjoy everything in those locations.

sl.wolf . Thanks. What were your rental cost from and return to Seville may I ask. All indications show this maybe the best avenue except maybe start in Grenada instead. I do understand the one way high cost from Portugal to Spain or and reverse the other way.

Does anyone have Hotel suggestions 4 Start in Lisbon, Duro Valley, Seville and Grenada. I can look everything up but thought I ask what is your favorite and why. I have a Barcelona covered.

You'll get more useful hotel recommendations if you tell us your price range in euros per night.

Right now you can take a look at rates for September 2019 on booking.com to get an idea of what quality of room you'll get in various price ranges. Some of the best deals may be sold out at this point, of course, but since room rates are seasonal, I think it's worthwhile looking at this September's prices.

You've already received some great advice. This is a logistically challenging trip due to the distances to be covered and how much you want to do. It's good that you're considering making some priority decisions and basing your trip on those, especially since you're already planning to make a much longer trip in the not too distant future.

Although it's not perfect, you might use Rome2rio to get an idea of the distances to be covered and the transport options to do that, along with the time it takes and maps. One little tip, it's Granada not Grenada. That difference could be important as you do your research and planning.

If you decide to drive, you might not have to go all the way back to Sevilla to return the car. For a lot of info on renting a car and driving in Europe go to Gemut.com. There is a free downloadable brochure, What you should know about renting a car in Europe in 2019, which will be updated for 2020. They can make your reservation if you like. And they are actually in Oregon, so it's an easy phone call.

I did the Rick Steves Heart of Portugal and Best of Spain tours back-to-back in June this year. I normally would take the train, but due to the distances, I flew. The airlines I used were TAP (Amsterdam to Lisbon), Ryanair (Porto to Barcelona) and Transavia (Sevilla to Amsterdam). TAP and Transavia were perfectly fine. Ryanair had the most uncomfortable seats I've ever experienced on any means of transportation. Just a little heads up.

One more thing in case you haven't already found it. There's excellent information on Europen travel right here on this website.

Use the Travel Tips for advice on several important aspects of European travel.

Go to Explore Europe where you can see details for Spain and Portugal.

You're very smart to start planning this early. You and your wife will have fun doing that.

Take a look here at daily weather conditions in each city for the last 10 years. Andalucia will probably be hot, highs in the low 90's are typical and over 100 is not unusual.

If you have some flexibility regarding dates, I suggest the last half of September for temperature reasons.

We spent 2 weeks in Madrid and Andalusia during the last 2 weeks of September 2017. It was in the 80’s in Cordoba and Granada, but it was in the low to mid 90’s in Seville, which was our last destination. We spent 4 nights in Seville, and flew home on October 3. I was comfortable wearing Capris in Granada and Cordoba, but had to switch to shorts in Seville.

We rented our car from Amoita (Lisbon, Porto or the south coast) for greater than a week. No charge for returning to one of their locations with renting for greater than a week. I have had a look at their recent rental sites, they now request that they communicate with them regarding rents out of the norm. There was a charge for ie., tow charge in Spain. They were easy to work with. We did not receive an Audi. We like a car with a few dents, nobody charges us for new dents! We had no problems with the car and it had a boot to cover our belongings.

You have a very ambitious schedule. You have too much travel in your plan.

I would split the Iberian peninsula into two.

1) Portugal-Lisbon (need at least 3 days there, more if you do day trips to Sintra and Evora. You can do Fatima on your way to Porto, also stop and spend a couple of hours at Obidos with its Roman walls. Also, the Cathedral at Bathila is great. You need 2 full days in Porto, more if you do the Douro Valley. I would plan on a total of 6-7 nights at a minimum.
Next head to Seville and you need 3 days minimum there. Seville is special. On your way to Grenada, stop in Cordoba. You will need 6-7 days for this portion of the trip.

2) Barcelona and Monserrat deserve 3-4 days, as do Madrid (3-4). From Madrid day trips to Toledo and Segovia are recommended. You probably have time to take in Valencia for 2-3 days. There is a high speed train from Barcelona to Madrid.

With the exception of a side trip to Fatima, you are looking at spending your time in cities, where a car will be an expensive nuisance.

From what acraven wrote about Schengen, it sounds like this may be part of a longer trip to Europe. Are you starting in Iberia (with jetlag?)? Have you been to Europe before? Are you taking into account the amount of time it takes to change locations (even a 2 hour train ride means using up half a day)? And the stress of getting oriented to new surroundings, transportation systems, signage.

Assuming you have 15 nights on the ground, that is 14 days, and you want to visit Lisbon, Fatima, Porto, Douro Valley, Sevilla, Cordoba, Granada and Barcelona. That is really fast-paced and you simply don't have time for driving, which is slower than trains or flying, even without taking into account city traffic and parking difficulties. An added complication is that you will have to stop to pay for tolls in Portugal. I rented a car in Portugal and paid extra for a toll reader, so I could zip through the toll plazas. I saw a few that didn't have a cash option. I don't know how that works if you don't have a device.

If you want to see the Alhambra you need a full day in Granada, which usually means 2 nights because of the time it takes to get there. If you want to day trip from Sevilla to Cordoba, you need at least 3 nights in Sevilla, so you have one day in each city. You will need at least 2 nights each in Lisbon and Porto to get a taste of each. One more night at least for the Douro Valley, probably 2 if you're flying out of Porto. That's 11 nights for a total of 6 full days and a couple hours on one end or the other of your travel days.

My advice - decide what your priorities are and be ruthless about eliminating Portugal or Andalucia or Barcelona. Or add days (the more the better) to your time in Iberia.

Thank you to all and recommendations, ideas and suggestions.

The good thing, we have been to Europa before and have rented cars, taken trains and used cheap local airlines. The only difference, not in either Portugal or Spain but I'm sure their close in operations. We are set on early September and understand it maybe hotter but we like heat and most likely will try and stay at places that have a pool for cooling off. Since most children will be back in school, things should be less crowded. We like the idea in takin the train places but that too restricts things since sites required other forms of transportation and the last thing we wish to do is live the movie "Trains, Plans and Automobiles".
What I have done to date. Establish a list of recommendation from what everyone has given and started to chart project cost, times and sites. Interested on how large it has gotten from everyone excellent ideas’
From this information, we will chisel and shape things down and go from there. We prefer to stay at Airbnb’s but if it’s just a few nights, it may be best to stay at a Boutique Hotel with a pool. In Barcelona it will be a Hotel since I plan to use travel points for the entire stay there.

My wife and I can’t say enough on how appreciative we are on each and everyone’s thoughts, recommendation and cost saving ideas. Even though its a year away, we already know our enjoyment will be because of your ideas, insight and travel expert knowledge. Thank you!

For Andalucia, low season is July-August because of the extreme heat. Prices go up for Sept-Oct, my guess is that the number of tourists also go up then.

Going to Portugal next week for 2 weeks but spent a month in Spain and loved it and plan on going back. Keep Barcelona on your list for several nights - so much to see - Barcelona is one of the great cities of the world love it there. We took the AVE from Barcelona to Madrid and from Madrid to Sevilla. Sevilla is a beautiful city and we didn't spend near enough time there. From Sevilla we rented a car and drove south through the mountains and went to Ronda a spectacular city that sits on a massive rock - absolutely beautiful. The drive from Sevilla to Nerja which sits on the southern coast was easy and beautiful since it takes you through the mountains and Spain country side. From Nerja we dropped off our car at Granada and took the train back to Madrid. The train system is so easy in Spain and the AVE is fast. We also took the AVE out of Barcelona to Sitges which is along the coast and from there to Valencia. So much to see in Spain. We also took a flight out of Barcelona to Mallorca and spent 4 days sightseeing. Nothing short of stunning going back for sure.

Thank you jsletten .

After some deep thought, we have decided to just do Spain for two weeks with Barcelona being our hub. From there we can take the train, discount airline or rent a car for the day if necessary. The plan is: Fly into Barcelona, spend the first 5-6 days there and then take the train to Seville and Grenada for 4-5 days. This leave us with 3-4 days as flex days to go someplace else with a return to Barcelona for our return flight. We like direct flights and right now Newark has direct flights to and from.

Thank you again to each and every person's response, recommendation and ideas outside the box. Waiting for the airlines to release next September’s flights. Starting to look at some Airbnb and a few small Hotels.

Do wish to “ALERT TRAVELERS.” We know of two couples that just came back from Barcelona with each being mug seperatly directly outside of their Hotel front door. They claim from speaking with the police and others (Restaurants, shop’s etc.) this has become a major problem and concern. It’s being done by groups, mostly by young men. We still plan to go.

Fly into Barcelona, spend the first 5-6 days there and then take the train to Seville and Grenada for 4-5 days. This leave us with 3-4 days as flex days to go someplace else with a return to Barcelona for our return flight.

Is it possible to fly open-jaw with Madrid? That makes more sense than backtracking to Barcelona if you want to visit Andalucia. I'd go as late in Sept. as possible to avoid crowds and heat, ending in Andalucia. OTOH, it would be easier logistically to fly into Madrid. If you're flying UA, there are direct flights. Land in the morning and take the train to Cordoba. Visit Cordoba, Sevilla, Granada, then fly or train (it's about the same amount of time) to Barcelona. If you end in Andalucia, it may be a better trip, just have to spend your last night in Madrid for the flight home.

Count nights!! 15 nights is 14 days. 6N in Barcelona, minimum 2N in Granada, 3N minimum for Sevilla/Cordoba. That leaves 4N. You could add 2-3N with a rental car between between Sevilla/Cordoba and Granada to see some of the white hill towns, esp. Ronda. You could add a night to Sevilla for a day trip to Cadiz/Jerez or Jerez/Arcos. You can add day trips from Barcelona to Montserrat, Girona and/or Figueras, Tarragona, small group tour to villages.

That's just a few ideas. There are so many things to see and do in Barcelona, you could fill 2 weeks there. You could spend 2 weeks in Andalucia. You could spend 3N in Valencia (round-trip from Barcelona).

Chani , Great suggestion. Something we will look at in the next couple of weeks. As soon as the flights are released by United, that is when we will book. In the mean time, I'm doing comparison on cost now via Multi Cities going and coming back.