Lisbon is Dirty, Revisited

But cities don't function mainly for the benefit for visitors, and visitors don't fully finance their upkeep. Places like Lisbon and the things you saw are more reflective of the the local/regional/state tax base and economics and recession crunch than some kind of cultural deficit. At least one person gave a convincing and accurate reply about rent control and tax structure that unfortunately prevents the kind of investment you'd like to see on the building exteriors. Your comments about the interiors being very tidy illustrates that even poor(er) people care about their environment and have a sense of pride.

What makes you think that local officials don't know what being on the trolleys is like, or that what you wrote would be news to them? You can have a sense of reality but not the money to make things better. Have you seen that abomination in NYC called Penn Station? Or the MTA subway system which is allowed to fall apart in one of the wealthiest parts of the country? If the locals don't demand change or put up the money to make fixes (or if the fragmented political decsion-making structure isn't responsive), then tourist criticism surely isn't going to be enough. I've read more than I can count all the railings about the Circumvesuviana around Naples, another less-than-wealthy region of Italy on this forum. But if it's good enough for the locals to ride on, why shouldn't it be good enough for me? It is what it is, and until the region and the tourist infrastructure gets a huge money infusion, things aren't going to change. Yes, the imbalance is due in part to mismanagement, corruption, and misalignment of resources, but then again, I'm a tourist and I don't make demands based on my first-world expectations.

I think some historical context would be appropriate here. Note that for several centuries, the economic conditions were so bad in Portugal, that one of its major exports was its youth. Although there was some progress in the early 20th century, Portugal was victimized by a dreadful fascist government between the mid 1930s until the mid 1970s. When Portugal emerged from fascism in 1976, it was one of the poorest countries in Europe. For those with an interest in that history, I highly recomend an excellent small museum near the Porta do Sol in Lisbon ( Museu do Aljube).

The fascist government of Antonio Salazar bled the country dry fighting colonial wars in Africa, deliberately suppressed education, and focused on the concentration of wealth within only a few families. Given this history, the country has made great strides in the last 40 years. As someone who visited Portugal several times before the overthrow of fascism, and who has returned many times since then, I have been impressed with how much the country has developed, and the substantial improvements in the quality of life.

We thought the condition of the buildings was due to the horrible reign of Dictator Salazar too. It was the same for the Eastern bloc countries. We loved Lisbon but understand their economy past and present are responsible as well. I predict it all will improve and it is improving. We plan to return soon.
And, yes, Penn Station is a horrible introduction to NYC. I wish AMTRAK used GCT to give visitors a beautiful setting to enter the city.

What’s the definition of dirty? To me it’s piles of garbage, rats, vomit on the ground (I live in a college town), litter, feces, outdoor markets that aren’t hosed down afterwards. What is being descibed here is run down, unsanded buildings, graffiti, but does that mean it’s dirty or just not yet gentrified?

I would suggest you take a similar route into any large US city that is not built on tourism and see if you think they are cleaner. I doubt you will.

I also believe that the Lisbon government, as well as any other large city in the world, spends what it can to keep things looking as nice as they can. But I am sure they spend more on police, fire, trash collection, and medical services to assist both the visitors and residents when those services are required. I would rather see some dirty run down buildings and feel safe walking the streets than nothing but perfectly painted and shiny buildings where I am afraid to venture out. This ain't Disney, it is reality.

The trolley system is not built to impress visitors. It is to move residents around in the most efficient manner affordable (same for mass transit in any city). The fact that these routes are useful and affordable to tourists as well is just a happy convenience. So what if some routes go through the poorer neighborhoods? How else do you expect those residents to get to their jobs?

I have not seen any comments about anything you liked so far in Lisbon. Surely there was something? Maybe not enough to completely offset the negative vibes of the run down areas, but something?

I reread the postings and would not go as far as saying they were “vitriolic.” Snarky and sarcastic, starting with my own, but not vitriolic. Realize that when your first 6 posts to the forum are all critical but not in the least bit constructive, it obviously can annoy posters who contribute here. If you participate in these forums, you will see critical opinions as well as those showering praise. I suppose that not describing the shortcomings of the country in its marketing literature might be considered fake news by some but that’s a sin of omission, not commission.

And now we anxiously await your commentary on all the construction cranes. Stop and smell the roses, even after you step in dog poop 💩!

We (3 couples) just booked our hotels for Lisbon and Fatima for next February, will book airlines this week - already checked our dates, etc. anyway, point is for us we want to feel safe, but the nitty-gritty neighborhoods not a deterrent to a visit. I live in Brooklyn and was here long before gentrification occurred so we are sure what you consider dirty we just consider well used. Can't wait for our trip.

• you and your wife had travelled 14 years in Europe...
• You where not a member before your traveling to Lisbon...
• Your wrote a lot of negative comments on Portugal...
• You DID not wrote one singular positive comment of Portugal (that is stupid... there are so many good things here...)
• You continue to write negative comments...
• Never before your trip you asked for some kind of advise...
• or some kind of experience...
• you don't even have your profile fullfilled...
• seems you just came here to make bad publicity to one country... Portugal.

Are you being paid from BC???

We were in Lisbon last week, and it was dirty. The streets were dirty; the buildings were dirty. And it had a crumbling infrastructure in many respects. And people begging on the streets. The historic sights were beautiful, and many of the back neighborhoods were appalling in their apparent neglect. I have been to many European cities, and I was surprised.

OK, I feel a need to add more cultural context in this discussion. There is a long tradition in the Mediterranean countries (which includes Portugal even though that country is not on the Mediterranean Sea), of not showing off your wealth to the street. The outside of the building may look shabby and unkempt, but the interior is likely to be very nice and spotlessly clean. This is an ancient tradition you will also find in Spain, France, Italy, Croatia, Greece, and throughout north Africa. There are, of course, many exceptions, and there is a recent trend in Portugal toward paying greater attention toward building exteriors and public spaces.

I am in Lisbon now. It doesn't seem any more dirty than a half dozen other major European cities I have visited. It is definitely run down in places, but so are many other cities. Lisbon a little gritty, but it has character.

I just got back from Lisbon and I would agree with Bets:

"What is being descibed here is run down, unsanded buildings, graffiti, but does that mean it’s dirty or just not yet gentrified?"

I too was rather disappointed to see so many buildings in urgent need of repair. And to be honest, I don't think the solution is a form of gentrification where the inner city is bought up by foreigners to secure a European passport or to make money by turning the housing stock into air b'nbs, leaving no room for local residents. But I don't have a miracle solution either.

Nevertheless, I did not see a dirty city while touring Lisbon. Busses and trains were clean and very efficient.

For those who may have missed it, a NYT perspective on Lisbon's issues:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/world/europe/lisbon-portugal-revival.html.

The pictures are interesting.

I should make one addendum as to what actually does make Lisbon dirty: Tuk Tuks! Those with the traditional two-stroke engine are terrible polluters. And most drivers I've seen let them idle non-stop .... Fortunately, there are more regulations being implemented to promote electric motors and more charging points for those throughout the city. Let's hope that this is an area where Lisbon manages to clean up quickly.

FWIW, I didn't find Lisbon to be any "dirtier" than other European cities. I walked all over the downtown area, rode the trams and trains and had a wonderful time there. I also enjoyed Porto and thought that was beautiful also.

I have been to Portugal in 1985 and returned for a Douro River cruise in 2016. Lisbon had grown quite a bit. Neither time did I find it problematic for trash or refuse. One thing that I have noticed in Europe in recent years is the gross proliferation of graffiti. It is worse in the Mediterranean countries and France, but far more of a problem nearly everywhere in Europe.

I lived in Germany from 1987-91 and graffiti was no where to be seen, except perhaps on a pedestrian underpass under a highway. None on buildings, etc. Now I see graffiti on apartment buildings, bridges, etc. Some want to excuse it calling is art.
Baloney, graffiti in the USA is an indication of criminal gangs. It shows a decline in community policing and order. Europe is now worse than what I see in the USA.

When I go to places like Venice and see graffiti on building hundreds of years old, it make me ill. I didn't find Lisbon as bad as Paris, and some Med countries.

We are in Lisbon now. Graffiti yes,a lot. Some stores closed. But dirty, no. No trash on street less garbage on street than NYC

Jonathan

This discussion reminds me of an incident where someone from Savannah, Georgia (which doesn't have icy/snowy winters) came to a seminar I was teaching in Massachusetts in February. She asked me, "Why are all the cars so dirty?"

Well, because every other day we had snow, or ice, or melting and freezing on the roads, and in those conditions no one would be going to commercial car washes twice or three times a week only to get more sand and salt all over the car again. (You can't run a hose outside yourself at home in winter, for several different reasons, so you have to pay for a car wash in winter and it's rather useless except at the end of the season.)

If you live in the Northeast, you simply accept that as a fact of life and don't regard dirty cars as a moral or aesthetic failing. I probably never even noticed that the cars were grimy until she asked.

I imagine it's the same for the dirty buildings. Dirty doesn't necessarily mean rundown, but I can see how it could come across that way to someone from someplace that cares about exterior cleanliness of buildings.

Lisbon was fine when we were there in July.

I suggest you go and judge for yourself.

I appreciate this review! Our views are always different and I read all reviews for balance. My husband and I are visiting Lisbon in October for one week and I will post a report.

I just got back from Lisbon, and it didn't occur to me that it was dirty. I stayed in the Alfama, where most of the buildings are over 200 years old, so the exteriors are kind of beat up, but not dirty. I found most of the graffiti fell into the "street art" category, and took many pictures to show friends. The train stations were very clean compared to those in California. I saw very little street litter. I have been to cities I would consider very dirty. Lisbon was just old, which can be seen as shabby or charming.

We just came back last week after staying in the Alfama area and agree with cloupy ~ old, a bit worn, but not dirty at all. Felt safe and comfortable and at home. Seattle streets downtown have more garbage than Lisbon. (or anywhere else we were in Portugal for that matter)