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ZTL violations

We’ve been home from Italy for about 5 months and the dreaded ticket came in the mail this past Monday. First, let me assure you, we take driving anywhere, especially in a foreign country seriously. My husband drives, I navigate. We don't drive around ignoring local laws. While my husband drives, I'm navigating, watching for signs, making sure we don't hit pedestrians, bikers, etc. and looking for a place to park. We know there are certain areas we are not supposed to drive and we watch for them. We've driven in Canada, Mexico, New Zealand, various Caribbean islands, France, Germany, Portugal, Luxembourg, Spain, Belgium, Italy (including Sicily), probably more.
Our nemesis is Gubbio, in Umbria. It took me a while to figure out what city that was, and I had to look thru photos to figure out what may have happened. There was massive construction in city center, it was market day. We were trying to find parking and using google maps. The violation was at 10:40 am, which coincides with us looking for parking.
Personally, it really stinks, because their city center was a MESS! We now regret going there. None the less, apparently we committed an infraction and we JUST WANT TO PAY FOR IT.
I consider the forum my travel friends. You all have helped me with many trips, and I feel we are rather experienced travelers at this point, thanks to the forum. First, I thought, I will go see if my friends can help me with this ticket. I did a search on the forum. I saw enough negative, condescending comments about ZTL infractions that I sure wasn't going to make a post. To be fair, there were some good suggestions from folks that always try to be helpful--Acraven, Roberto, etc. In lieu of a post, I messaged some folks. Lo and behold, there is a fair number of very experienced travelers that have also received tickets and have also struggled to figure out how to pay them. To be perfectly clear, we are not trying to evade payment.
Nothing on the notice is clear. I don't speak Italian, not their fault, mine. But, I struggled with google translate. Next, if its paid in five days, the fee is 30%. OK, well, tell me how to pay. It doesn't say if its five days from receipt, five days from when its sent, five business days OR WHAT? I immediately sent several emails. Nobody responds! Then I notice there is some kind of online system. I again start searching the forum. Today, which is the 4th day from receipt, I started to try to pay it online. They won't take U.S. credit cards. (U.S. credit cards are accepted by merchants, etc., in Italy, so they could, I imagine, figure out how to take our credit cards) I noted that some on the forum recommended WISE and PAYPAL. The Umbria system doesn't accept WISE as an option. I then look to my Paypal account which I haven't used in many years. I updated the credit cards and tried to use it. Over and over it wasn't accepted. I sat on hold for two hours with Paypal to find out that because my account hasn't been used in ages, it rejected an international payment, and now my account is frozen for 72 hours.
So, at that point, I was at a loss. I don't have friends in Italy. I contacted B&B we stayed at in Orvieto. She suggested that since I've made a good faith attempt, to forget about it. Well, that's not who we are, we pay our fines. Secondly, we don't want to come back to Italy and not be able to rent a car or worse, get arrested. Italy is not a country I want to mess with. So, I expressed my concerns. This lovely, kind woman is going to go to the Orvieto police department to see if she can't help.
To, sum up, don't bother to email, don't bother trying credit cards, look to see if WISE is accepted, paypal might work if you have an active account. And, if you want a great BnB in Orvieto, steps away from the cathedral with the nicest host, I recommend La Magnolia. And now, I am going to have a couple glasses of CALIFORNIA wine.

EDIT: SEE UPDATE BELOW

Posted by
3280 posts

So sorry—not just about the fine— but for all the time you’ve already put into resolving this mess. So friggin’ frustrating, Jules. Do they want you to wire the money?! Do they not want you to have the fine reduced to 30% so they can collect 100%?! Maybe it’s some sort of University study on human reactions to the intentional infliction of emotional distress on tourists. One would almost hope…
I’m renting cars this September in northern Italy and Puglia, and will be watching to see what our knowledgeable colleagues suggest for a solution.
And I’m not driving anywhere near Gubbio.

Posted by
3280 posts

From what I have read, the letter you received from the police/authorities in Italy is required—under Italian law,—to be a registered letter for the fine to be legally enforceable. I didn’t catch that you mentioned that it did arrive “registered.”
If the letter did not arrive registered or certified—you may be off the hook.

Posted by
7690 posts

Isn't it a simple bank transfer? There should be an IBAN-number somewhere.

Posted by
22349 posts

Simple bank transfers do not exist in the USA. The fact that there is a currency exchange complicates it. Wise is the best and cheapest wire transfer service with built in currency exchange.
https://wise.com/

Posted by
7323 posts

The Umbria online system doesn’t have WISE as an option, unless there is a way to input it under some other name. Also, I don’t have a Wise account but I would guess it is easily obtained. I look at this again.

As I think more on this, at one point. It asks for a tax number. I filled the field with eleven zeros. Then later in the process, it actually said, if there isn’t a tax number to fill it with ANONO (or something similar) I would guess that this could be a possible issue.

Oh, and another thing I did, suggested by PayPal was to drive to a Walmart and deposit cash into my PayPal account (of course for a fee) so that the transaction would be pulling from a balance instead of a credit or debit card.

Posted by
35428 posts

wise isn't like a payment method the Umbria folks need to worry about, although you do get a card number which they may not want - just like a different credit card. What they also do excellently is take money from you and pay it in a bank transfer to Umbria in Euro. To them it is just like a bank transfer from any other bank, but fees and exchange rate are far superior.

I've never known anybody fail with an international payment through Wise.

I used to use them a lot but no longer move money internationally, although I still have the account.

Posted by
7323 posts

I have the following options on the Umbria online payment system (pagoumbria)
Credit or Debit Card
Apple Pay (I tried, didn't work)
Bancomat Pay
Conto Banca Popolare di Sondrio
Conto BancoPosta
Conto BancoPosta Impresa
Conto ICONTO
Conto Intesa Sanpaolo
My Bank (it's not MY personal bank, its a name for something in Italy)
Paga con Postepay
Paypal (anche in 3 rate)
Satispay

@Kenko, I'm not sure if it would be considered certified or not. A pinky/orangish card labeled Posteitaliane was attached to the back of the envelope. We didn't sign for it, it was with the rest of our mail

Posted by
7323 posts

GAME CHANGER: On an internet search, I found out that I can wire money thru Charles Schwab for free 3 times a month. We only use Schwab for travel cash, so our balance is not high enough for a free transfer, so I need to wait until Monday, to move money. Over the phone the Schwab rep, walked me thru how to do the wire transfer. I'm not sure I have all the details I need (BIC/SWIFT), but my Orvieto contact said she will get that from the Orvieto police department. She assumes it is easy enough for them to get the info from the Gubbio police

Incidentally, I only have a Schwab account because forum folks recommended it for the free ATM withdrawals. So far, I've got to say, it was well worth setting up the account. Our account was hacked on our recent trip, but Schwab had that resolved in about 30 hours. Schwab customer service is excellent. So I highly recommend Schwab

Posted by
6555 posts

Jules, thanks for sharing and sorry for the frustration and lost time. Italy is beautiful and has its charms, but its bureaucracy is not one of them. My SIL was in the Air Force and lived in Italy for a total of seven years. He said even paying a residential water bill was a challenge. So the maddening systems also frustrate residents. As the surrounding countries modernize their various systems with new technologies, seems Italy continues with how it has always done things, even if they work poorly.
Good luck!

Posted by
7323 posts

@Pat, this ties to your comment. I had posted on Gubbio facebook government page to try to get some help. This comment was posted to mine, I used google translate and deleted my name, " MY NAME DELETED, found herself in the most beautiful city but the most poorly governed for the past 15 years, a city where even we who live here no longer know where to put a vehicle or which road to take! Even the honorable Tajani couldn't provide any guidance! I apologize for asking him!!!! "

Posted by
6555 posts

Jules, thanks and very interesting. Keep us updated.

Posted by
16750 posts

Unless you have an Italian bank account (which would be part of the PagoPA network, the network used by Italian government entities, including local governments, the only way to pay is really with PayPal, since they should give the ability to use PagoPA, as PayPal has an agreement with an Italian bank for that purpose. From what you write, PayPal is an option, and “anche in 3 rate” means ALSO IN 3 SEPARATE INSTALLMENTS. If they give you a possibility to pay via credit card, try, but it’s possible that payment by foreign credit cards is not accepted either. There is no other way, as Itslian entities don’t give generally an IBAN and without that you can’t do a bank wire transfer.

If you don’t pay there will be no denial of rental cars in the future (the rental car company is off the hook once they transmit the name of the renter to the authorities) and there is no arrest (80% of the 3 million Neapolitans would be in jail otherwise, since only 20% of fines in Naples get collected). It’s an administrative infraction, not a criminal one, therefore the consequences can only be administrative (money to pay). If you don’t pay, it is possible that the City of Gubbio might assign that debt to a credit collection agency part of an international network. Some jurisdictions do so for foreign residents’ fine, but not all. If you don’t pay there might be a collection agency contacting you in the future (by that time they will try to extort you 5 to 10 times the amount), I’ve given advice in the past on what to do to get them off your back using a Cease and Desist certified letter. They are not enforceable in US Court, so they will try to intimidate you to pay, but they can’t. Just dispute and monitor your credit after the letter.

The 30% is a discount if one pays within 5 days from official notification,

I receive certified mail all the time from Italy (from banks, or Italian tax authorities). The US Postal service carrier doesn’t ask you to sign. They simply tear off the Poste Italiane slip themselves when they deliver and that counts as delivered. In Italy they will have an online record of when that letter was delivered to you by the USPS carrier, so the fact you weren’t asked to sign doesn’t count for much. The USPS enters the post as delivered in the system accessible by Italian Postal Svc

Posted by
23307 posts

She suggested that since I've made a good faith attempt, to forget
about it. Well, that's not who we are, we pay our fines.

The harder you work to do the right thing the more respect you deserve. A lesser individual would have looked for some technicality to ratiinalize their not paying.

Posted by
7323 posts

@Mr. E, honesty and integrity is something I tried to instill in my children, and that is the way I like to live my life. I really do feel that the fine was unfair given the construction and detours, etc., especially given what the resident said on facebook, but I have no way to argue.
@Roberto, I appreciate all the clarifications. Some things now make sense. Yes, the notification came by registered mail from the city of Gubbio.

Posted by
23307 posts

jules m, I get it. i would have gone through the same range of thoughts, feelings, and emotions as you did. Then, like you, I would pay it. This struck home today because I had to listen to some tourists today complaining because they got a fine on the metro. They have no idea how much they embarrassed themselves. Thank goodness they were not Americans.

Posted by
7323 posts

@Mr. E, Yep, On Friday, I was, "I hate Italy, never going there again, the town wasn't even that great. . .", to "But, I never got to village Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna and Fruili-Venezia :( " to today, "I guess, I'll wait a few years. . ."

Posted by
7323 posts

PAID THE VIOLATION! A few comments:
*I used a wire transfer online, from home, thru CHarles Schwab. Any fee depends on your account balances. It's $15 or free. Other banks/credit unions charge high fees, starting at $60.
*I had tried Paypal again, since I couldn't use Schwab on the weekend. Still didn't work. If you can get Paypal to work, it looked like the fee would be a couple bucks.
*I'm going to explore getting a WISE account. I've never needed one, so I don't know much about it. I wonder if I could have used WISE, thru a wire transfer process similar to Schwab. It wasn't available on the online Umbria payment website. However, it seems to me, that Schwab may do everything for me at a lower cost than WISE.
*For this wire transfer, I needed an IBAN code and a BIC/SWIFT code and name and address of the receiving institution (in this case, Gubbio Police department)

Posted by
5457 posts

This is quite a saga! Thank you for posting!

The main take away I have from all the posts about fines in Italy is to not rent a car there. LOL. But if I ever succumb, in a moment of weakness, this post will be great.

Also to Wise and Schwab: a friend and I recently needed to transfer money (same amount, same place) - I used Wise (easy and low fees) and she used a easy and free Schwab transfer. We both needed the same info you ultimately had to have. Maybe I this is my second nudge to open my free Schwab account.

Posted by
8246 posts

Congratulations and so happy your honesty and persistence paid off!

Thank you for sharing your experience and thank you for being a good citizen.

We have rented cars many times in Italy and other Europe locations and have been fortunate
Only got a ticket in Germany ( going slightly over speed limit in residential area) and were able to pay it very easily

No tickets in Italy …so far ;)

Posted by
6555 posts

Congrats. I'll bookmark this post for other unsuspecting tourists, who no doubt will be posting about this exact same issue.

Posted by
1807 posts

The main take away I have from all the posts about fines in Italy is to not rent a car there. LOL. But if I ever succumb, in a moment of weakness, this post will be great.

TTM took the words right out off my keyboard! Thanks jules m for the report. It is valuable information which I hope never to need. By the way, I believe that the info you needed to wire the money is standard wire transfer info whether for domestic or international use.

Posted by
7323 posts

I hate to keep adding UPDATES, but this might be important to some.

When I completed the online transfer on the Charles Schwab website I indicated that the transfer was in euros in the amount of 72,10. A couple hours later I got a call saying I had an insufficient balance for the transfer. No way. Then she asked if I intended to transfer $72,100. Umm, no! I explained I used the European format. So, yah, maybe watch that.

Posted by
1266 posts

The main take away I have from all the posts about fines in Italy is to not rent a car there.

Bingo, my take away, too.

Posted by
344 posts

Yes, I took refuge in the bus lane twice trying to find our hotel in Padua 3 years ago, got dinged for both.....and knew I was doing it at the time. Trying to find the entrance we were allowed to the restricted zone - which clearly said no vehicles allowed. Called hotel, was advised "that does not mean you!" Oh well. Paid via the WISE app noted above, no issues with that process. As noted would not ignore a traffic violation at home, why would that be ok in another country? Congratulations on the "right thing".

Currently hoping to get no speeding citations from 10 days in France this May. Sometimes difficult to track everything at once. I think I am ok, but who knows?

Posted by
959 posts

jules, thanks for sharing your ordeal and thanks for doing the responsible thing.

Posted by
11 posts

Not a ZTL violation, but parking tickets and autostrada toll problems:
1. Over the course of four trips in Italy we've received two parking tickets - we couldn't figure out how to pay them so asked the hosts of our accommodations who helped us out: in one case the hostess paid online and we reimbursed her; in the other our hostess called her friend at the local post office in the village and confirmed that we could pay it there. (It would be nice to be able to do that in the US.)
2. On our most recent trip (April/May 2025) while returning to drop the car at the Florence airport via the A1 we took the wrong lane in the toll plaza - the one for prepaid tickets instead of cash/card - and were given a bill for 61 Euros. At our acommodations in Florence we told our hosts that we wanted to pay it but didn't know how. They explained that in that situation the driver is charged the toll for the entire length of the A1. They insisted on calling the appropriate authorities and explained that some clueless Americans had made a mistake, and the fine was reduce to less than 2 Euros. Paying tickets can often be done in a tabachheria but not the ones we tried in the neighborhood, so one again our wonderful hosts paid online (and printed out a receipt so we have proof of payment!) and we reimbursed them.
We have rented three times in Italy and have driven from Tuscany to and around Sicily, and those were the biggest problems we had.