Were the Vatican Museums your favorite part of your visit to Rome?

I've been to Rome more times than I can recall and I have never visited any of the Vatican museums. I refuse to give them any money. If that means missing out on the Sistine Chapel so be it, Rome has so much more to offer.

Stick to your principles.

I know how you feel. We've been to various parts of Italy on three prior trips to Europe, and I'm relieved that I don't have to wrestle with the morality of supporting the Catholic church now that I've seen the Sistine Chapel. At the same time, I'm ashamed that the realities of the Boston Globe's "Spotlight" articles weren't enough to keep me away. Sorry kids - your ruined lives weren't enough to keep me from Michelangelo's ceiling.

People like me have kept the money making machine going for at least a thousand years.

But as I sit here at my computer on August 17, 2018, I don't think I will be paying to visit any more Catholic-owned venues.

The Vatican museum has some wonderful arr, but it was not my favorite place in Rome. Wandering around the hustoric district and sites are my favorite things to do. The Villa Borghese has many great art pieces. We visited Rome for a week our first trip and we also enjoyed doing some of the DK Eyewitness Rome walks and a side trip to Ostia Antica. You will love Rome!

IMO, if your aim is to enjoy art and you want to avoid anything inside a Catholic Church, then aside from the Borghese Gallery, you're pretty much out of luck, unless you want to look more at modern works. Because the fact is, most of the noteworthy classical art in Rome is inside the Vatican or a church. There are of course plenty of other things to see and do in Rome.

If you still want to concentrate on Italian art, perhaps you might want to go to Florence instead. Of course, you'd have to skip the Duomo, Duomo museum, Baptistry, Medici Chapels, San Marco monastery, SMN, and Santa Croce, since those are all Catholic (at least in origin). But you'd still have the 2 main art galleries as well as some of the Palazzos.

I an a practicing Catholic, and although I enjoyed seeing St Peter's, I would cheerfully skip the Vatican museums. Way too crowded, too loud, too rushed. The Borghese Gallery, on the other hand, rocks my soul.

The Galleria Doria Pamphilj in Rome is awesome and not owned by the Catholic church.

http://www.doriapamphilj.it/roma/

I keep mentioning the MAXXI museum and no one here on the RS Forums seems willing to bite,
but if you like modern art and architecture while minimizing iniquity, give the MAXXI a go.

There is also a pretty good oriental museum, but you need to know what you're looking at since the labels aren't in English,
and the Italian understanding of what they have in their own collection is a generation or two behind current scholarship.

That still leaves me very impressed by the Vatican collections, and their scholarship, and while I agree that they are dirty,
I would just point out that it doesn't therefore follow that anyone else's collecting habits are clean.
I hate the Gettys but I still love their museums and restoration work. I love the museums in Washington, DC but they are all built on robber baron fortunes.

Let him who is without blemish cast the first aspersion, as the saying (sorta) goes. We here in the WASPified version of reality have no standing to gripe about anyone else's authorities and founders. (Luther and Calvin were not just great men with tragic flaws as presented in WASP tellings of modern history, they were horrible horrible people. Just because the Church was mired in worldly events doesn't mean that the Protestants were somehow a more angelic alternative -- they were no less earthbound.)

I am not Catholic, so perhaps my thoughts don't count. I'm also a woman, so...same.

But this was my experience of Rome.

To visit a city is to experience all of it - history, culture, religion (past & present), archeology, etc. I greatly enjoyed my after hours private tour of the Vatican Museum/Sistine Chapel. I also enjoyed walking into random churches which held world class art.

We all have our own lines. I respect that. For me, I think it's better to see something and try to put it in perspective. I do not blame all Catholics for what some priests have done.

YMMV, of course!

Everyone is welcome to avoid any sites they have issues with -- especially if it reduces crowding where I want to be. However, if you are looking for art in Italy but want to avoid any Catholic church venues you may find it difficult since that's who commissioned artworks for quite a long period. Not just museums, but art in situ.

From a purely sightseeing perspective (ignoring all religious or scandal-based opinions for the next 2 minutes), I actually do NOT find the Vatican museums a must see. Yes, the Sistine Chapel is amazing. Beyond that, however, the museums are so insanely crowded that you have at most half an hour at opening or closing to rush to the ONE area you want to see in peace, the rest of the time it is wall-to-wall and you can't really stop and linger at any piece of art. I don't mean the normal crowds one sees at, say The Louvre, or other major museums, this is way beyond that. It might have something to do with the architecture of the buildings (lots of thin hallways that are the only way to go) or just the popularity. I suppose someone will pop in here with a trick to seeing it less crowded, but that's my experience and that of many other people I have talked to.

Your problem will be that much of the amazing art in Rome is inside churches. Granted, most are free to enter so you aren't paying the church. However, I would NOT skip the Pantheon. That is my #1 site in Rome, and it is currently a church.

As far as art museums, The Borghese is spectacular. I didn't love sculpture before I went, I came out with a real appreciation for it. The lighting and display really compliment the pieces (unlike in the Vatican) and crowds are limited.

Italy is one of my favorite countries. Love the history, culture, art and food. Also, the people are pretty cool as well.

I have been to most of the best museums in the World and found the Sistine Chapel to be the most awesome and amazing work of art in the World. The 1001 Horses Tapestry in Taipei is another.

I am not a religious person, but one cannot ignore the role of various religions in world history. To ignore the wonderful art and history is like having blinders that block out most of your vision. The Vatican Museum is filled with history and art, as is St. Peter's Basilica. People like Michelangelo had their role in designing and building St. Peter's.

Because you visit a cathedral or church and pay a modest fee, that doesn't mean you have to pray or that you are supporting that faith.

Minta, it wasn't too long ago that there were demonstrations in front of regular American museums decrying their dedication to the works of "dead white men." As another noted, there wouldn't be much reason to visit Rome (because there are so many Roman Empire artifacts elsewhere ... ) if it were not for the Catholic Church. I hope your demand for good behavior extends to other denominations of Christianity as well. Do you buy food at Chicken-Fil-A? I don't.

Would you believe that many people find places like the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City to be too, sort of, Protestant? That museum noted a few years ago that, until J.P. Morgan began collecting it, there was zero interest in Medieval Art in the United States. The reason ... ? It's Catholic.

Edit: Minta, you also need to more carefully separate your thoughts about crimes, from the lives of real people. Going back before (I imagine) you were born, the bad actions of some Black Panther Party members did not invalidate the entire 1960's Civil Rights Movement in the United States! Your personal idea of how YOU can punish pedophile Priests may not be effective (although it may make you feel good), and your actions may simply inflame the many people who support freedom of religion.

Since you're from Arizona, it would be interesting to know if you are aware of the controversies about exhibiting Native American art objects (not to mention skeletons!) that were part of burials and religious ceremonies? Other artists' (such as Georgia O'Keeffe's) re-use of images like kachinas deepens the issue.

However, if you are looking for art in Italy but want to avoid any
Catholic church venues you may find it difficult since that's who
commissioned artworks for quite a long period. Not just museums, but
art in situ.

IMHO, I think Laura's point above is the heart of the matter. However we feel about it, a vast amount of historic art and architecture exists solely because of the patronage of the church or wealthy citizens who had works commissioned for it.

As well, it's through some of these works that we know how people dressed and how their surroundings looked during certain eras so there's value there from a purely secular standpoint. Much religious art and architecture was considered culturally valuable enough for a great deal of effort and risk to go into rescue and preservation during WWII (read "The Rape of Europa", "The Monuments Men", "Saving Italy", etc.)

Similar but infinitely more perilous work is ongoing in places like Syria to save cultural treasures from destruction/sale via the hands of extremists who consider them and their preservation profane. It's also true that from an ethical standpoint, other museum collections contain works obtained through flat-out robbery (reference the origins of some of the Borghese's excellent collection) or other questionable means.

While not a Catholic myself nor less than horrified about abuse by some of its clergy, I view my entry fees to churches and religion-based museums as support for the preservation of cultural history versus the beliefs or behaviors of the modern institution itself.

Editing to add: no, the Vatican Museums were not a favorite because of the overcrowding BUT I will give it another shot to explore less-visited sections. The Sistine is not the be-all, end-all of the thing.

I went to the Vatican museums in 1969. I was interested in the sculpture, not so much the Sistine because the lighting was bad. Almost nobody was there! I got to see a little t I f sculpture. In 2012 I went again because my friend wanted to see the Sistine. MY GOD! We were trapped in a flood of humans flowing through corridors going to the Sistine. No appanent choice to escape the flood to go anywhere else. Rick Steves or someone may have already shown in this Forum how to avoid the human flood and divert to see non-Sistine stuff. I'll try to look that up, for my next visit so I can see the sculpture once more.

Kathy and Laura well-said!

We go to Europe for history, art, culture (and food!). Much of history is ugly (Nazism, Fascism, slavery, the Inquisition), and much art comes from religion which has many unfortunate facets. Is the Sistine Chapel imperative? Of course not. But I would not avoid entirely the Vatican and St. Peter's. Set aside the ugly bits and appreciate the beauty. Think about the good parts and admire the outcomes.

If you are interested in art, then you should see the Sistine Chapel

Dangerous topic!!! But I'll jump in. I'm not Catholic. Last year we did the Vatican museum tour and St Peter's. This year we did the walk up the dome and the crypt. It was great and I have no regrets and never thought twice about doing it. I eat Chick fil A all the time and love it. I haven't bought gas at Exxon for 30+ years because of how they handled the Valdez disaster. So pick and choose what you are passionate about, I guess. But visiting the Vatican does not mean you support pedophiles, and eating Chick fil A doesn't mean you are a homophobe and buying Exxon doesn't mean you support oils spills. I want to see as many wonderful things as I can before I die, but if I question the morality of everything ever done in the history of the world, I might as well just stay home. You gotta do what feels right, but for me the Sistine Chapel and Pieta were worth the trip!! Good luck!!

JC, I feel the same as you do.

The point some have missed... looking at art owned or commissioned by the catholic church that is free to look at, is out in public, in a museum not owned by the cc, is not the same as giving them money / supporting them to see it.

Interesting to see some recommendations for the Borghese Gallery. It is great, but Borghese was himself a Roman Catholic cardinal, and by many accounts not a very nice one.

The Colosseum was built by slaves.

And quite a lot of the ancient Roman art in civic museums was created to be every bit as religious as the more recent Christian art in churches.

Just as a big chunk of USA history is grim, so there is "grimness" in the history of most European countries. I suppose recorded history in Europe goes back further so there is more "grimness" to contemplate.

So far as current events go, you have to make your own choices. My only comment is that by skipping the Vatican Museums, I do think you might regret missing the Sistine Chapel which is beautiful. As far as the rest of the artwork there goes, I don't remember it much, apart from some interesting maps.

Rome, incidentally, is my favourite city, for all the less than ideal history ( or, more likely, because of it).

The Colosseum was built by slaves.

You're obviously right, Nick. But the masters of the slaves who built the Colosseum are long gone and reap no benefit from the tickets sold today.

If you are going to Rome "primarily to enjoy art" you should go to the Vatican Museums and St. Peter's. There, you will see masterpieces by Michelangelo, Raphael, Bernini, and more. And I doubt that your entrance fee will go straight into the pocket of some pedophile priest. Is that enough of an endorsement to waive your principles? If not, then it is definitely your loss.

Will you also forgo seeing the magnificent water gardens at Villa d'Este because they were built by a Cardinal who wanted to become Pope?

Or skip the Doge's Palace in Venice because somebody became Pope?

Or skip Florence because so many of the Medici who ran the place and commissioned so much of the art were Popes?

The Vatican Museums are definitely a highlight in terms of art. We each have to decide for ourselves where to draw the line. At least if you decide to opt out of a visit, you will avoid the miserable crowds. I would consider skipping it myself because of the crowds next time I am in Rome, but I have already been four times. The Borghese Gallery is as good in terms of quality, much less in terms of quantity, and a much more enjoyable experience.

Side note: I have found the Pinacoteca at the Vatican Museums to be an exception to the crazy crowding, a lot of people seem to just miss it, but if you do go it's not a bad idea to go there first. That and the ethnographic museum which was a surprising treat.

Much of the beauty in Rome and Italy in general had something to do with the Church. If the issue is with money changing hands, then you could stick to free sights and have a nice visit.

You can skip the Vatican Museums. But the church is worth it and it is free

I heard about “those scandals” when I was a child in in 60s. They are not new, just being brought up more. Were the museums the favorite part of my trip to Rome, no. A cursory look on my way to the Sistine chapel was all they got. There are many other fantastic works of art in churches throughout the city.

Minta,
A couple of quick front-end thoughts:
1) I can well understand your asking the question on the Forum. You are asking for the experience of others in considering if the art is so superior (vs other art) so as to not miss it, regardless of who "owns" it.
2) Re: the issues with the Catholic church, we were raised Catholic. After being lay ministers, we completely stopped practicing decades ago when it was revealed what was being covered up here in this area. That decision was underscored to be correct when cover ups were outed in other areas, and then again with the most recent widespread cover-up news.

Almost a decade ago, when we were on our RS Heart of Italy tour, I was conflicted visiting the Vatican Museums. On one hand, it was interesting to see the valuable, vast collections. But, on the other hand, I kept thinking: Gosh, all this could be sold off and help a bit to cure world hunger (or at least to teach family planning so those who are hungry don't keep adding child upon child that they cannot feed). In fact, as we were moving from one part of the museum to another, I made a comment like that quietly to our RS guide. My husband later told me that everything I was saying was heard by the rest of our group (thru our whisper devices). I should have been more careful, but in retrospect, I would not have really cared if the comments were printed on the front of Rome's newspaper. I cannot remember if it was our overall guide or the extra local guide (on another day) who shared that a good bit of the museum collection had been given to the Vatican from people seeking absolution and a some of it had been previously stolen by those givers.

So, it was sort of an eye opener for me on how some humans have behaved over the centuries..........doing bad to in someway seek good for themselves......sad, actually.

Then, when we went to Italy our second time, we actually attended mass at St.Peter's because we were unable to get into St.Peter's (closed for private event first time/beatification of John Paul the second), and I was taken back by the way some people behaved. Some people were literally shoving (or sneaking ahead to jump line) in the ropes that were set up to enter for mass. So, in a much smaller way, I saw modern day humans sort of doing bad to do something that they thought would be good for themselves (going to mass). People are odd.

Understanding how you are also conflicted in making your decision, it if were me, I would go.....not only to see what is to be seen, but also to be able to sort of "place" the Catholic church and the Vatican (corporate headquarters-ness of it all) in its place throughout history and in its place today. That I found educational. And, like with all travel, when one is home seeing some major event on TV or reading about something in an article/magazine,etc. there is always that nice feeling of "I've been there."

Will you be remain conflicted if you go? Likely, yes. Will you remain conflicted if you do NOT go? Likely, yes. So, if you will never be closer again, just do it,but do it with the right frame of mind that you are scoping out the big machine of Catholicism, its wealth, and what the masses of people who followed it helped to build.

There is the argument that one should separate the bad from the good the church does, and there are valid points in that. But, for us, we are good with our decision not to practice nor send money (outside of the admission fees we paid to see the sights).

If you go to the Vatican, in my opinion it is very worth paying extra to see it in the evenings when it is open to fewer. We experienced it that way the second time with Tauck Tours, and it was the difference between day/night.........no crushing crowds.

Sorry but my answer is yes. If I avoid places in order to make a statement, there are a lot of places I wouldnt go- and we would probably all have different lists. Most of the money that supports the Catholic hierarchy does not come from admissions to tourist sites. To avoid offending people, I will leave it at that.

I am reluctant to give a dime to the Catholic Church

Just be sure to be thorough

You cannot purchase anything from RS as his tours include the Vatican Museum, so you are making a "contribution" to the Catholic Church whether you like it or not.

You cannot use ANY tour guide/service that has tours that include the Vatican Museums, as you would be supporting the Church.

You cannot patronize any business/restaurant/shop that is owned, operated or has employees that are Catholic, as your purchases put money in their hands which they can then put in the collection plate.

You cannot ride or use any public or private transport that has Catholic employees as you are supporting their wages which could end up in the collection plate.

Have a nice trip!

PS--- Same applies for patronizing businesses in the US as well.

We toured the. Atocan Museums/ Sistene Chapel museums filled with valuable art treasures. If they sold a few painitings they could feed the world’s poor. The Pope( John Paul II) was saying mass after our tour and we left. The scandals of sexual abuse of children was our reason; we couldn't bear to acknowledge the Pope who had overlooked so much.

Who comes on a travel forum to sort out a moral dilemma?

All sorts of people. IMHO, they're good conversations to have as long as they don't violate civility guidelines. They've ranged anywhere from conflicted feelings with visiting concentration-camp sites (should they be tourist attractions?), the Red Light district in Amsterdam (discomfort with legalized prostitution), traveling countries with personally offensive human-rights issues, such as governments which criminalize LGBT communities, etc.

Here's a thread started by a RS staff member with some tossing about of moral/ethical viewpoints during the course of discussion:

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/general-europe/travel-ethics-612334a0-0ca1-4128-b088-c13d1d8a91c3

LOL, there has been some lively (!!) feedback posted to a number of Rick's blog entries when his topic has been political or otherwise 'touchy'. I always chuckle when it's along the lines of, "I don't want to have to deal with politics on this website!!" or, "I don't support your views and won't buy any more of your books or tours!" It doesn't faze him a bit; rattling the cage now and again can generate some interesting perspectives to ponder. Don't care for the topic? Go on to another subject or website; everyone is free to make that choice.

Oh, and a thumb up for your last post, Joe. 👍

I fell in love with Rome - everything about it is wonderful EXCEPT visiting the Vatican museums. We visited the museums when we were there in September and it was miserable. Crushing crowds, disorganized - there must have been a thousand people squeezed into the Sistine chapel! I got so claustrophobic that I left the tour early. I will never go back! It depends on what's important to you but my favorite thing to do in Rome was to wander away from the tourists. Trastevere, Campo di Fiore, the Jewish quarter. The layers of history one sees can't be matched anywhere. Also highly recommend the night walking tour in Rome that starts in the coliseum area. Well worth it - sooo beautiful! Also, I found the frescoes in the sweet little local churches much more rewarding, especially while a worship service was going on.

Per the article, about 50 million Euros a year from museum fees goes to fund the Vatican State itself: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/24/arts/design/vatican-museums-jatta.html

Minta,
Have the responses to your post helped to better formulate your decision?

From a historical perspective what the Vatican Museum contains is priceless. It's NOT JUST the sistine chapel and it's frescos, it's all the Greek and Roman art that was preserved during the during & after the fall of Rome. The church was the only organization that recognized the significance of these pieces, not to mention the methods used to create them, who created them and why. All those things are important in the history of Western Civilization, just as much as the formation of Christianity, it's development and the Protestant Reformation. There's A LOT of people who don't understand that when Rome fell, there was A LOT of technology & methods that was lost to mankind, which took over 1000-years to rediscover how...that's why that period was called the Dark Ages.

I get a laugh out of the ostentatious decor, the endless symbolism & ceremonies, however I also understand their place in history and the fact that a particular church owns many items, doesn't bother me. I'm glad they've made it available to the public to view and enjoy.

Without any perspective on history and how people lived in the those times, then your understanding will be limited to cynicism and misunderstanding. You have every right to pass on visiting the Vatican Museum, nobody is forcing you to go, however, you may want to gain some perspective as to what's there and where it lines up in the history of things.