I'm learning very basic Italian for a trip next month. I understand the concept of the familiar vs polite forms of the "you" singular verbs, but I'm not sure how it applies to the working people I'll encounter in cafes, gelaterias, shops, public transport, etc. Which form should I (try to) use in those situations?
If it makes any difference, I'm 75 years old, look younger, but am not going to pass for under 60.
Thanks.
You would normally use the formal form for anyone other than friends, relatives, close acquaintances and children. Using the familiar in a transactional encounter would likely be considered inappropriate.
I was taught, in language classes, you can never go wrong with being formal.
Agree with CJean. Formal speech and politeness a sign of respect and is never inappropriate. Unwanted familiarity may offend.
Okay, thanks! Insofar as I can put some words together, I'll use the formal.
Based on a trip to Italy several years ago, if I think about it ahead of time I can work out what to say. But I have a lot of trouble understanding the responses, which come too fast and include words I don't know.
I agree the formal form is the one to use. I've noticed the language apps teach you the familiar rather than formal and I wonder why that is. I'm concerned they are setting us up to accidentally insult folks we encounter.
The informal "Tu" is becoming more prevalent, even in situation when I would use the formal "Lei" form. I guess it's part of the evolution of the language. Nevertheless if you use the formal "Lei" form with all, you will never go wrong. I know it may be confusing for an English speaking person to have to use the "third person" form of a verb when talking to someone. It's like if I, while talking to you, I asked you "Where Does He go on vacation?" instead of "Where do you go on vacation?"
Actually thinking "where does she go" explains the formal form better (no matter if the "she" is actually male or female).
The evolution of the language is going in the direction of using familiar forms. When my grandfather was a child, he used the formal form with his parents. When we were children, we used familiar forms with parents but we were taught to use formal forms with school teachers. Now elementary school teachers tell their pupils to use familiar forms with them, so the young generations do not use the formal anymore. It is more likely old people get offended; for example, my wife and me just visited a young doctor (the stand-in of our sick physician). He used "tu" with us - we are more than double his age. I considered the thing as unavoidable, my wife got a little offended.
Since you are 75 years old, people in the service industry should use the formal form when speaking with you in Italian.
A 75 years old Italian replying with the familiar form would be a little rude and condescending. A foreigner learning the language Would get a smile.
In short, enjoy your free-pass.
But I have a lot of trouble understanding the responses, which come too fast and include words I don't know.
How are you approaching your Italian training? There are many videos on YouTube with basic Italian lessons, and the advantage is that you can hear the pronunciation, so you can start training your ear. Some lessons are conducted in both English and Italian. You might look at Kylie Flavell's language videos - she makes an effort to repeat phrases slowly and distinctly.
The RS Italian phrase book is an excellent refresher.
Or you the "Voi" (You all) form.
So for example while talking to one person to ask where he goes on vacation, you say: "Dove andate Voi in vacanza?" (Where to you all go on vacation? even though it's only one person you are talking to).
The formal "Voi" form (and the informal "Tu" form) was the only formal way in Italian during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance.
The "Lei" form, with the use of the 3rd person in the singular, was adopted in the XVI/XVII century, probably due to the influence of Spanish culture in Italy (most of Italy was ruled by Spain then), since the Spaniards use the formal "Usted" which requires the use of the 3rd person singular.
So both the "Voi" (originally Italian) and the "Lei" form would be acceptable formal forms. The "Voi" form became actually mandatory during the Fascist regime, because Mussolini considered the "Lei" form not authentically Italian (had in fact a Spanish origin) and also he considered the "Lei" form effeminate and not manly enough (he believed in virility).
The "Voi" form has however fallen in disuse and is still (rarely) used with older people (especially those who grew up in the fascist era, most of whom have now passed) and maybe in the South. I remember when I was young, that people of my grandparents' generation were using almost exclusively the "Voi" form.
How are you approaching your Italian training?
I started with a 12-CD set before my previous visit to Italy, several years ago. When I got home I bought a book -- Italian The Easy Way -- and played at it for several months. But then with no trip on the horizon, even distantly, I let it all lapse.
A couple summers ago I started with Duolingo lessons, but only 1 or 2 a day so you don't make much progress at that pace.
We decided to go to Rome just 3 weeks ago. Since then I'm listening to 2 podcasts -- Learn Italian with Joy of Languages, and Italian Grammar Made Easy. I listen to several lessons a day, plus continuing with Duolingo.
My biggest problems are:
Anyway I'll try my best and I expect most Italians will be understanding. I'm sure many of them will speak English much better than I do Italian, plus I'll have Google Translate (assuming my phone plan works).
Learning numbers is just question of exercise. When I was 22 I was sent for study to play in a German youth orchestra. Mind you, I did not speak any German; I just had the time of learning how numbers are assembled. Now, in orchestra rehearsals conductors shoot numbers like machine guns ("let us do 4 bars before #124. Play softly for six bars, a little more crescendo on the seventh, forte on #125 to #126"); and we had four hours rehearsing per day. In a week I had learned numbers. To this moment I understand numbers by instinct, in spite of having learned some German only on the spot without any formal instruction; my brother, who studied German for three years at school, is much slower with numbers.
Kylie cracks me up, I keep expecting her to mention that she has an Onlyfans page ...
Another aspect of this just occurred to me:
If someone speaks to me first in the familiar, or if they reply to me in familiar, should I then just use the same?
I'm talking normal people, of course, I don't have any meetings planned with the likes of the Pope or President. :-)
Since you are 75 years old, people in the service industry should use the formal form when speaking with you in Italian.
A 75 years old Italian replying with the familiar form would be a little rude and condescending. A foreigner learning the language
would get a smile.
In short, enjoy your free-pass.
I will indeed, but I'd like to try to do it right.
If you see the Pope make sure you call him "Sua Santità" (His Holiness) and the formal "Lei".
If you use the "Voi" it's ok. Just tell him you love the poet Dante (he used "Voi" since the "Lei" didn't exist in Italian then).
My mother (Mary) loved the current Pope. As a half joke, I framed a photo of him with the dedication:
Bless you, Mary.
Pope Francis (Signature)
She never asked if it was legitimate, and I was never sure what she thought. She liked the photo though and kept it on a table until her death.
If someone speaks to me first in the familiar, or if they reply to me in familiar, should I then just use the same?
You can reply in the familiar, accepting the familiarity; or you can reply in the formal, showing that you do not accept to be dealt in a familiar manner. The latter could sound standoffish, and it is, but usually this nuance gets easily lost to persons that addressed you first in familiar mode.
There is a joke explaining the situation very clearly, but it would impossible to translate it in English as details get lost. Here it is in Italian.
Due preti che si conoscono fin dal tempo del seminario si incontrano dopo diversi anni, nel frattempo uno dei due è stato nominato vescovo.
"Ora sei diventato un vescovo, ma mi piacerebbe che continuassimo a darci del tu."
"Faccia Lei".
