update about effect on travelers of migrant crisis in Italy

No haven't heard a thing about it , no news is good news

180,000 migrants arrived in Italy in 2016, the 0.32% of Italian population and many of them flee to northern Europe as soon as they can,
Every given day trenitalia runs 9,200 trains to take around 2,842,000 passengers. Why should migrants limit the availability of trains? To do what?

I was in a few northern Italian cities last month and saw only a handful of people who appeared to be migrants or refugees. No trains were anywhere near full even on weekends.

My grandfather was a migrant. He came from Napoli and arrived at Ellis island.

I thought Jackie's question was valid too, and Dario's response informative. What's the problem?

Looking at this impartially--not politically--I'd also like to know where the 180,000 refugees in this last year were sent, and how many have skedaddled to northern Europe, if those figures are available. I watch DW German news all the time and see the staggering figure of 420,000 refugees arriving in Germany over the first nine months of 2016, more than all the other EU countries combined. Right or wrong, the sheer numbers of Angela Merkel's open door policy are destabilizing her political hold.

Given that Dario's figures are correct, it will be interesting to see how Italy handles this issue, and to do some observations of my own when in Rome over the next couple months.

Dario's figures are pretty much spot-on, per the Pew Research Center.

From January 1 - November 1, 2016, there were 160,000 that had arrived in Italy, up from the 153,842 for all of 2015, and there were 170,100 for 2014. So it seems to have been fairly constant for the last three years anyway.

One more bit of statistics that I wouldn't have known, again per the Pew Research Center:

"The overwhelming majority (85%) entering Italy this year are from African countries such as Nigeria, Eritrea and Sudan. By contrast, about two-thirds (65%) of refugees entering Greece in 2016 are from Middle Eastern countries such as Syria and Iraq. An additional 30% of refugees entering Greece in 2016 are from Asian countries such as Afghanistan and Pakistan."

Jay, thank you for the source and the way you presented the information. You did it in a way that did not belittle the person asking the question.

Jackie,

I get to Italy every year and while that only provides a "snapshot" view, I haven't noticed any change. While you may see a few migrants about in the stations or on the streets, they generally won't be patronizing the same places as tourists. I suspect most of the migrants are trying to get out of Italy and into Germany. That's certainly what I found when I talked to a few of them in Salzburg last year.

Which part of "southern Italy" are you planning to visit?

As has been stated, there doesn't seem to be any disruption to tourism services.

Italy has been accepting migrants for many years, in fact for many centuries.

I spent two weeks in Florence and Rome last year and did notice an increase in street vendors, etc, but nothing problematic. I am sympathetic, however. Individuals spend great amounts of precious vacation time and thousands of dollars hoping for their dream vacation. They have a right to know what to expect It's not at all likely that the Italian Tourist infrastructure, or tour organizations will be forthcoming with accurate information regarding what to expect. The refugee issue is one that will be with us long-term and we all have to find a way to understand, cope and, in some way, lend support.

Don't worry about the refugees, the mafia is still there.

jkc
So your grandfather was a migrant to Ellis Island.

Now that explain the long lines on the ferry last year when I took my Italian cousin for a visit there and the Statue of Liberty. All those migrants are taking all the seats on the ferries.

I saw virtually no refugees when in Florence in October 2010, but maybe I wasn't looking for them, especially on our first trip abroad. In March 2015, on the Piazza Santa Maria Novella (Florence) there were a handful of African hawkers (refugees--who knows?) that regularly tried to sell amulets and whatnot to tourists. I would watch them from our apartment overlooking the square. Not aggressive, in fact by the third day one of them recognized me and didn't approach, waving me off with a grin. I found them more a nuisance than dangerous.

I was recently in Italy for 10 weeks and rode trains everywhere the entire time, plus local buses. Even in Milan where there is a large migrant camp-out near Centrale station, there is no transportation disruption of any kind. You will notice immigrant vendors in the streets and markets and beggars on church steps, but only in a very rare case is this a recent migrant. These are people who've probably been in Italy for many years. You'll be perfectly fine!

With headlines like: "Time to act' Italy calls for mass migrant deportations as half a million refugees arrive" the OP asked a fair question and of the lot, I like Susan's answer the most.

I have posted this before, from July 2015, but perhaps it is worth repeating.

Leaving Brennero, the last stop on the Italy/Austrian frontier, for Innsbruck (about 20 minutes down the mountain), our train was overrun with refugees, about 30, their faces appeared to be East African (Somali, Eritrean, Sudanese). They ran down a slope and onto the train just as it was starting to move and piled in and filled the aisle. No one could leave their seat. For this entire 20 minutes the train car was not in the control of the railway, there was no conductor and no one to challenge these people's behavior.

So yes, there is an ongoing refugee crisis in Italy, and yes it can affect the trains.

I heard just a snippet of an NPR story this morning which said that 2016 was the deadliest year for migrants and refugees since WW2.

Here is an interesting site with data on the crisis:

https://missingmigrants.iom.int/latest-global-figures

So, Tom, what happened after 20 minutes?

There's something inherently wrong with using a report of one incident well over a year old to illustrate current conditions. Hardly helpful to the OP. I'm more inclined to accept the information given by people living in the country or those who have visited within the last couple of months - and even then you're dealing with individual experiences that may or may not reflect the true ongoing conditions.

Re: prior poster Tom_MN's account....you have to keep in mind that a) this story was from 2015 and may not be representative of current conditions and 2) more importantly, it was in northern Italy near the Austrian border (most immigrants were trying to get to Germany). While not impossible, I don't think such an occurrence is as likely to happen on some random regional train in Southern Italy. I was in Sicily last year (closest to Tunisia where many migrants came from) and rode the trains and did not notice anything at all. I didn't notice anything in Malta either, despite many immigrant landings there. Neither my anecdote or Tom's is predictive of anything, it's just a few data points...the best thing to do is to keep abreast of the news at the time of your actual departure, which is months from now. My take is there's no point in worrying about something that may or may not come to pass...having a Plan B is fine (you can always rent a car, right?)

I haven't seen a refugee-caused rail-disruption report since March of 2016 and that one didn't involve Italy. There were some issues in different parts of Europe back in 2015 - a long time ago now - but those didn't really affect travel within Italy much, as I recall. Really, I don't think you have a thing to be concerned about.. As far as Italian trains go , strikes are what you cross fingers against! Got caught in one of those once but I still love Italian trains and, bless 'em, the Italians don't complain about the tourists overrunning their rail system during high season! :O)

As Dario apparently lives in Italy, I'm sure he (I think you're a he, Dario?) is most likely to have the current skinny. I'm seeing nothing at all of concern currently in The Local or on Trenitalia.

http://www.viaggiatreno.it/viaggiatrenonew/index.jsp

Have a wonderful time, and don't forget to validate regionale tickets!

But the OP isn't talking about street vendors, blockbuster sites like the Louvre, or France....she's asking about Southern Italy (it would really be helpful to know where exactly). This is a real apples to oranges comparison. If you're in the most touristed city in the world at one of the most touristed sites in the world, then you can expect street vendors to congregate there because they go where there are opportunities. Southern Italy isn't as marketed or touristed as heavily as even Northern Italy, let alone France and Paris.

Texwinmama, if you think the vendors outside of the Louvre "pestering" people queueing to enter is a recent phenonemon caused by migrants, think again. At least 12 or 15 years ago while waiting in line at the Louvre we were constantly asked to buy some trinket or other. They are poor devils trying to stay alive.

Agnes's response is a breath of fresh air in this discussion. Since the OP's question is about southern Italy, half of the responses above are not helpful, nor was the "Are you serious?" comment early on.

Jackie,
The state department website would be an appropriate official site to obtain any warnings about travel to any country.

Especially in Rome you are going to have fight off the street vendors and the pick pockets. I would worry about that before the migrants.

Agreed; it would help to know just how far south the OP is going. I never think of Naples, Sorrento and the AC as "Southern Italy" but oodles of posters seem to put them in that category.

A good friend of mine traveled solo around Puglia a couple of months ago using the trains and didn't have any problems.

Nigel, when Dario's response was prefaced with "are you serious," it seemed to show a disrespect for the person asking the question and could tend to discourage a person from asking more questions on this forum. No, I am not upset with the "truth" but how does one know something is the "truth" or a "fact" without any evidentiary backing. I look at these forums for information from people who have experienced traveling in various areas. I get a lot of helpful hints which I research more fully so that I can optimize my time and travel dollars. I have seen a tendency of some posters to diminish some questions. The purpose of the forum should be to encourage the free flow of information to help others enjoy traveling.

James E., I spend a lot of time in Roma and disagree strongly with your last post. One may have to say "No" more than once to some vendors, but "fighting them off" or being surrounded by pickpockets? Was this your own experience?

Italy is generally spoken of as having north, central and south areas. Regions are usually the dividing lines, so southern Italy would start with Campania and include Sicilia, Basilicata, Puglia and Calabria.

@Tom_MN

When we took this train route last month, the train stopped for a while at the Italy/Austria border. 8 or 10 Polizei boarded at the back of the train and walked through the cars toward the front. Then we were on our way. The police stayed on the train until the next stop.

Totally agree with Zoe. Was in Rome for 10 days a few years ago and an entire month quite recently. Never ever experienced a pickpocket. For vendors I just politely say no or shake my head "no" and keep on walking. I was never hassled or hustled by anyone no matter what area of Rome I was in. It's a marvelous city!

After 20 minutes we arrived in Innsbruck and all the migrants scattered. It was an unsettling experience and I had the feeling that it happened all the time. This was a month or so before the migrants coming into Hungary from the east captured the news.

I'm not surprised that police are guarding this segment now.

Textwinmamma those weren't refugees pestering you..lol .. and they have been in paris for many decades..

OP I think you will be just fine.

I liked jkcs post the most.

We could all be refugees tomorrow.

Zoe, the answer would go too far off topic (trying to behave) Short answer, family member & friend. Google: top pick pocket cities. Primary point, bigger things to consider than migrants in Rome.

Tom_MN,

"Leaving Brennero, the last stop on the Italy/Austrian frontier, for Innsbruck (about 20 minutes down the mountain), our train was overrun with refugees, about 30, their faces appeared to be East African (Somali, Eritrean, Sudanese). They ran down a slope and onto the train just as it was starting to move and piled in and filled the aisle. No one could leave their seat."

The authorities must have corrected that problem by Sept. 2015 as when I went through Brennero, there was a huge contingent of police officers on the platform. If there were any migrants about, they would have had NO chance to board the train.

This seems to be the most recent thread on on the issue of the refugee crisis. I don't want to start another thread to ask my question but it is not about Itally but more about the refugee crisis in general.

In 2014 I spent three months travelling around Europe, I stayed in youth hostels and used a Europass to travel by train.

I get from this thread that the train system through out Europe is pretty much up effected by the crisis? Yes, no?

How about the youth hostels? Have they been effected by the crisis?

Are there places to avoid? Would East block countries such as Hungary, Cezch republic, Slovakia, or Poland be less problematic. From the news it seems Paris and Sweden are experiencing problems to avoid?

If immigrants are on a train is because they purchased a ticket and have the same right as anyone else to be on it.

But how can you tell they are immigrants and not Italians?

There are over 5 million immigrants in Italy. Well more than half of them come from Europe (mostly Romania, Albania, Ukraine, and Poland), and you can't tell them apart from Italians. Of the 1+ million who come from Africa and Middle East, more than half come from Mediterranean countries, so they are also hard to tell apart from Italians.

Of the 1/2 million that come from the Americas, most are of European origin (Peru, Ecuador, and Brazil are the top countries of origin but most are white since black South Americans are notoriously poor and less able to travel that far), so they are also hard to distinguish from Italians.

So we are left with about 1/2 million from Black Africa and less than a million from East Asia and the Indian subcontinent that can be distinguished easily. There are 60 million residents in Italy. One in 50 people will appear to be clearly a non white immigrant. Each train car has over 40 seats and there are 12 cars for each train (over 400 seats per train). So you might expect at most 10 seats of those 400+ per train to be occupied by a non white immigrant. Hardly a reason to book your tickets early. I'd be more concerned of seats occupied by North Europeans and American tourists. Those do indeed affect train seats availability much more than migrants, especially in the Rome-Florence-Venice line.

"I get from this thread that the train system through out Europe is pretty much up effected by the crisis? Yes, no?
How about the youth hostels? Have they been effected by the crisis?"

To address these two particular issues: 1. I'm not sure what you mean by 'pretty much up effected' - is that a typo? it doesn't make sense to me, but from mid-summer of 2015 - early summer 2016 there were some very sporadic issues on trains from countries of entry (such as Hungary) to countries of final desired destination (usually Germany, Austria, and on to UK). That influx has pretty much been curtailed by the countries of entry and I'm not aware of any particular issues with trains in the last 9 months. 2. I'm not aware that there was ever an issue with youth hostels, never heard anything about that.

I'd be real careful about believing everything you read in news reports in the US, especially in right-leaning, conservative, anti-immigrant news sources. They have a tendency to overblow every little incident however minor to 'prove' their point. Do some research on well respected independent news sources to get the real story.

The most likely 'issues' you might run into in Europe now are occasional protests against immigration and rare one-off incidents of violence by European residents against targeted groups believed to be a 'threat' to them. Neither of these is likely to affect tourists , trains, or youth hostels. Europe is quite safe for tourists.

but from mid-summer of 2015 - early summer 2016 there were some very
sporadic issues on trains from countries of entry (such as Hungary) to
countries of final desired destination (usually Germany, Austria, and
on to UK). That influx has pretty much been curtailed by the countries
of entry and I'm not aware of any particular issues with trains in the
last 9 months. 2. I'm not aware that there was ever an issue with
youth hostels, never heard anything about that.

Nancy hit it on the head. I deal with people traveling from “entry countries” to “desired destinations” on a regular basis. When things were bad I spent a lot of time finding alternative forms of transportation and routes for guests. I had guests stranded and one rerouted to an internment camp, so it was indeed a mess. Now there doesn’t seem to be any issues at all. Something may change in the spring when it warms up, but I sort of doubt it. Still worth keep informed till then.

As for the rest, Nancy and I agree in part.

To borrow Nancy's words with some modification: I'd be really careful about believing everything you read in news reports in the US and Europe, especially in narrow minded right-leaning and left-leaning, news sources. They tend to either exaggerate incidents or avoid publishing facts to 'prove' their respective points. In the absence of truly independent new sources these days, its incumbent upon you to do some research and draw your own conclusions. But this goes well beyond your question

The most likely 'issues' you might run into in Europe now are occasional protests for and against immigration and rare one-off incidents of violence by migrants or European residents. Neither of these is likely to affect tourists , trains, or youth hostels. Europe is quite safe for tourists.

Why is Bruno kicking this old thread up the line? Any facts to support people being kicked out of their homes?

Gone now, Zoe. Just unsubstantiated drivel masquerading as information.

But I'd appreciate Zoe taking a poll of Italians vs. migrants when she's over by dere in the next few months, and gauge the responses :)

Inquiring minds wanna know!

Who's Bruno? I'm missing something here.

Ken, Bruno was wiped by the mods. Good thing. :O)

Kathy,

Thanks for that. I couldn't find any Bruno in the thread, so that explains it.