Train fine. I don't know who is right?

Ok the app maker said that Trenitalia makes it very difficult to search for the correct rates for the correct ages so they make assumptions based on journey length. The fact we went between regions means the app defaulted to age 14.

They were kind enough to offer reimbursement for the fine. 8 euro isn't going to bust the vacation budget! But it was a kind gesture.

Point being, why are there different ages for different trains? By the time I die I will be an expert in European train travel. Until then I'll keep racking up the fines.

To add to that, last time we were here 6 years ago we did a day trip Florence to Pisa. I knew nothing about validating tickets... Just selected the train, bought tickets, and hopped on. Never knew! So we technically traveled illegally for 8 total journeys without even knowing. So we're coming out ahead!

That's the reason it's better to buy directly from the provider, in this case Trenitalia, it will offer you the offers that apply to your group and ages. Third parties make this type of mistakes.

I don't have an Apple device, so I guess I can't use the App you mention, but I think it's a third party App, not from Trenitalia.

I did look up Orvieto to Firenze on the Bahn schedule website, which I think has access to the official database for all European trains. The Bahn show two classes of train from Orvieto to Firenze, Regionals and Inter-City trains (the Inter-city trains go to Firenze Rifredi, not SMN). When you filter for regional trains, you get the trains that go directly to Firenze SMN, and when you filter for high-speed trains (not regionals), you get the ICs. So apparently ICs are "national trains".

Since you say that the train is a "Regionale Veloce", why would you not expect it to be a regional train?

I think this experience shows why you should always deal directly with the company that runs the trains, not some third-party.

The fact we went between regions

If regional trains were only allowed to run inside their own region, you'd have to walk between a lot of stations to cross regional borders, wouldn't you? The train you were on is a Tuscan (region) train. The reason one terminus is in another region is probably because Orvieto is the closest large (20k) stop (hub?) to where the train crosses the Tuscany-Umbria border. The two other stops between the border and Orvieto are in pretty small towns.

In Germany, regional trains are run by state-based organizations called SPNV (Schienenpersonennahverkehr), and regional train tend to belong to and run primarily in their SPNV. In two cases, Rheinland-Pfalz and Saarbrucken, and Sachsen, Sachsen-Anhalt, and Thüringen, several states are combined into one SPNV "region". In 2012, I went by train from Dresden (in Sachsen) to Freising (in Bavaria). The trip consisted of two regional trains, with the change of trains in Hof, in Bavaria close to the border between the two states. Bavarian regional trains run to Ulm in Ba-Wü, to Salzburg and Kufstein in Austria, but stop in Hof, near the border, where you can change to Sachsen regional trains.

I suspect Italy might have a similar system. Tuscany and Umbria might be combined into one "region". Hmm, the Bahn shows that there is a regional train that runs direct between Rome (Lazio) and Firenze (Tuscany) via Orvieto (Umbria). So I don't know how they define regions. I do see a classification of "macro-regions" for Italy, of which there are 6. The central region consist of Tuscany, Umbria, Lazio, and Marche.

It says "Regional Veloce" on the name, so it is a regional train, not a national train. The Trenitalia website clearly shows 4 to 12 is the child rate on regional trains. So pay the fine, knowing that it makes up for all the free rides your 14 yo got.

I did buy the tickets direct from Trenitalia. Paper tickets at the Orvieto train station. But when you buy tickets it says nothing about ages. Based upon the other app and the research I did, I assumed she was a child. After all, she is a child on the long distance trains we've been on. Why would it be different? So it never occurred to me there was a difference between trains.

I get regional is in the name. Point being, even in the Trenitalia app, it doesn't clarify what is a child. I didn't realize there was a difference in the definition based on the Trenitalia train. On a high speed train, she's a child. Otherwise she's not.

Point is, it's a gotcha. I wonder how many fall into this trap. It's possible I'm the only idiot.

Mistakes, I've made a few. When you ride a regional train in Italy, they are cheap because they are partly subsidized by the regional government. So when you ride, say a thank you to the tax payers of Italy. The price is a few gotchas. Consider them educational opportunities.

I guess it begs the question... Which are the national trains? The ones with Regionale in the name are easy enough. But inter-city? It's that regional or national? What's the cutoff? And how is a tourist to know? Nothing in the RS guides that I can find.

Years ago we travelled through Itally with an 8 year old, a 12 year old who turned 13 and a 14 year old. In those days you purchased from a person. Even with the kids standing beside me I would get different answers as to how many "Ragazzi" I had! So I'm not sure you can entirely blame the app.

A Regionale Veloce is a regionale. Intercity or FR are National. The regionale discount applies to kids 4 to (almost) 12 (up to the day before they turn 12). From the day they turn 12 and after they pay adult fare.

Regionali do cross borders, generally to a bordering region. For example there are Regionali that from Florence (Tuscany) go to Rome (Latium) or Bologna (Emilia Romagna). But if you want to go to a non bordering region using a regionale, you will need to change regional trains at least once. For example there are no direct regionali from Florence to Naples (which is in Campania) since Campania does not border Tuscany, therefore if one wished to travel there on Regional trains only, s/he will need to change trains (most likely in Rome).

Consider your 8€ fine a pay back to the Italian taxpayers who subsidize the trains (not just Regionali since even Freccia tickets do not cover the full cost of the railway system) for everybody, including tourists.

I'm traveling in Italy now with a 13-year-old and have purchased Trenitalia tickets on the app, website, and station ticket machines.

The app and website automatically apply the correct child or adult pricing based on the passenger age you enter. When I purchased a ticket with both intercity and regional segments, the website applied the child price to the intercity segment and the adult price to the regional segment on a single ticket.

On the ticket machines, there is a little information button next to the number of passengers that shows the age rules when you touch it. Since passenger age is not required on the ticket machines, you have to know what type of train you are riding to know the correct fare.

The conductor is always correct. Even when he is not. Pay the fine and enjoy the trip. But a good reminder, buy from the source. At lest then you would have some support in your argument.

Thanks. Just for clarification, I did buy direct from Trenitalia.

“ Thanks. Just for clarification, I did buy direct from Trenitalia.”

Can you please clarify this? From your previous posts it seemed you bought your tickets via the Trenit app. This app is from a 3rd party, not Trenitalia. Where and how did you buy your tickets?

My sincere apologies. I shall clarify.

I used the Trenit! app to compare prices and travel times on the route we were to take. Based on the ages I input it suggested to buy 3 adult tickets and 1 child ticket on Trenitalia.

At the train station using the Trenitalia kiosks, I selected 3 adults and one child. I validated the four paper tickets and got on board not realizing the definition of child is different based on the type of train.

Even if I would have bought via the app it redirects directly to the Trenitalia site. But I bought my tickets in person at the train station kiosk.

If Trenitalia offers the App on its own website, I think it is entirely CORRECT to say that the OP DID buy DIRECT from Trenitalia. Now, if Trenitalia is incompetent in some way (... gasp! ... could that be???), he'll undeservedly, take a beating.

https://www.trenitalia.com/en/purchase/mobile_ticketing.html

If Trenitalia offers the App on its own website, I think it is entirely CORRECT to say that the OP DID buy DIRECT from Trenitalia.

It actually suggests that it was the third party app that was at fault, and Trenit is not on the Trenitalia website. You could suggest that Trenit is seeking to confuse by using such a similar name.

Caveat emptor, again, of being mislead by these third parties.

Had the OP checked (even if not purchased) directly with Trenitalia then they would have had to input the actual ages of the children, presumably the Trenitalia app/website would have then correctly calculated the fare.

Trenit! is a third party app sold on the Apple App store, not a part of Trenitalia.

Thanks Scott B for clarifying. So you used the 3rd party app Trenit to look up fares, but bought your tickets directly from Trenitalia. In that case it was very generous from Trenit to reimburse you for the fine you received.

Trenitalia does indeed refer to an app on their website, but that is their own app, not the app the OP used.

Excellent. I think we've sorted that all out.

Tldr... On high speed trains, 14 is a child... everything else, 11 is a child. Put it in your guide, Rick!

Off to Siena today. Never been!

@Scott B- Maybe you would like to suggest a guidebook change directly to RS tours on this form- https://www.ricksteves.com/forms/guidebook-feedback-form

Ah! Thanks.

Another tidbit we figured out. We had to check out of our room in Florence at 10am. We can't check in in Siena until 3pm. So we needed to burn time. But what to do with our bags?

Any of the Duomo passes are good for three days. We did the Duomo a few days ago. But the ticket is still valid. So we simply checked our bags into the complimentary baggage check east of the Duomo and were able to explore Florence nearly an entire extra day. With trains every hour, no rush!

Probably wouldn't work for rollaboards but they took our backpacks no problem!

BTW, I have found in these situations, I go to my new hotel and check in.
"Sorry sir, but we can not get you to your room until 15:00."
"That's OK, Can I leave my bags here until then?"

"Of course sir, no problem."
"See you at 15:00 then."

So the bag check at the Florence Duomo will take any bag under 25kg even if it's a rollaboard. Note you need a valid Duomo ticket to use this service. Worked great for us!