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Train Conductor Penalties and Actions - Good to Know

Just got back from Rome and Orvieto. I am used to the Northern European train systems, where

  1. machines are rarely broken,
  2. train info is clearly and repeatedly displayed,
  3. conductors WANT you to be both happy AND responsible. German trains run on honor system, which works very well, but if you are a tourist caught without a valid ticket, you are at most calmly and quietly put off at the next stop.

This was very different. We made 2 mistakes, both were unintentional.

  • Train from Fumicino to Rome Termini (main station): We got on the wrong train because it was in the same poorly marked area and had no other readouts saying its destination, outside or inside. The man who checked our tickets to enter (because the machine was broken) only waved us in the general direction of both trains. Technically it was absolutely our fault, but really easy to do and not intentional. We had valid time-stamped tickets we'd just bought, and we were clearly tourists, although respectfullly attempting to speak Italian. Within 2 minutes of boarding train, the conductor yelled at us and demanded we pay the extra money PLUS a fairly reasonable fine (extra 50% of ticket price). We did, but what a way to start the trip to Rome!
  • Lesson learned: check and double check destination of trains, and tickets. Plus, if we had caught the cheap bus to Termini, we would have spent 1/4 of the money and not gotten on the wrong transport.
  • 2) Train from Rome Termini to Orvieto: Our train left from Platform 2est, which was over 1/8 of a mile from the place we started walking in the terminal. We had no idea it was going to be so far until I noticed a sign that said "2est 250 meters". We went from having plenty of time to having to run. The train was just leaving so we didn't even try to stamp the tickets in the yellow (or sometimes newer green) stamping machine. The conductor waved us aboard. Within 2 minutes he was checking our tickets and announcing that because we didn't stamp them (they were time stamped for 1/2 hour earlier from the vending machine, which made it clear we could not possibly have used them before) we would have to pay a €100 fine! When we objected he literally YELLED at us that we MUST pay. We calmly said we would not, that we would get off at the next stop. That upset him further, and he ordered us out of our seats to the entry area, where he proceeded to angrily yell at us. When we didn't escalate and stayed resolute, he allowed that he would do something special for us and only charge us 50 euros. At this point, there was no way I was going to pay this guy, although he made it seem like we were about to be arrested. It was extremely unpleasant. He then told us that there was probably not going to be another train to Orvieto that day (a Sunday) because it was being worked on. We got off at Rome Tiburtina, where we consoled ourselves with the excellent GROM gelato. We got on the next train 2 hours later (after futilely trying to get an answer for what we had done wrong from the TrenItalia ticket sellers there, and buying brand new tickets because we were so scared of doing something wrong again). We STAMPED our TICKETS moments before we boarded, which is evidently the preferred method. Then, we happened to sit next to an Englishman traveling to Montepulciano, who calmly handed the (different) conductor his unstamped ticket, and was calmly handed it back, without a word, hand-cancelled by same conductor. When we reacted with total disbelief, he explained that he left Rome Termini at platform 2est and couldn't cancel it because the stamp machine there was broken. However, the conductor never even asked him about that. We were flabbergasted, 3 hours late to our hotel, out €14 (instead of €100) more, and quite shaken by this 2nd mishap in 3 days. Lesson learned: STAMP all tickets, just before boarding. If you don't remember to do it, inform conductor that machine was broken, which will probably be true.
Posted by
32701 posts

Having taken dozens of trains all over Rome (and Munich) I find it hard to believe one yet alone two Capotreno gents yelling at you unprovoked. In fact I find it hard to imagine any Capotreno coming down the train within two minutes of departure.

Yes, 2 est is a fair way beyond the end of most trains. It is well signed though.

Posted by
11300 posts

I have only once encountered a capotreno that tried to bilk us for a fine. It was in the Cinque Terre in the days before there were automated ticket machines. At that time, in the evenings after 7:00 when the ticket offices had closed, you could buy tickets on the trains from the capotreno. One time when we asked upon boarding to buy the tickets, the capotreno decided no, we were in violation, and she would fine us €50 each. We refused to succomb to her threats, which included hollering "Polizia!" when we goT to our stop. We handed her about double the normal fare, i think a total of €8.

Posted by
11613 posts

"If you don't remember to do it, inform conductor that the machine was broken, which will probably be true." Not a good lesson, in my opinion, especially if there is more than one machine at the station. Conductors on short runs tend to know when a machine is broken (only very small stations have only one machine). In a couple of cases when that happened to me, I found the conductor and explained the problem, or wrote on the ticket the date and time and showed the hand-marked ticket to the conductor, with no problem.

Posted by
4152 posts

I, too, find it hard to believe that you were yelled at twice though unprovoked. I also find it hard to believe that it was just 10 minutes when the conductor started checking for tickets. Either way, if you didn't validate your ticket, this was your fault. You should always be at the station at least 15 minutes prior to departure. The fact that you were running to catch the train says that you didn't allow yourself enough time. This is not the fault of the conductor who had no way to know that you hadn't validated your ticket at another machine. He was waiving you onto the train to be helpful, not in order to catch you breaking the law. The fact that he let you off the train without paying the fine is something you should be happy about. He could have had you arrested and taken to the police station until you finally paid the fine. For the trip to the termini if you weren't sure of where the train was going you should have waited for the next one to be sure. You could have easily asked someone for help instead of getting on a train that was in the station.

All the conductors I've ever met have been very nice and helpful. On one longer journey I wasn't feeling well so I went to the bar car for a soda and snack. The ticket I had was for the entire party so I left it with them. When the conductor came through the bar car I explained what was going on and they asked which seat and carriage I was in. He came back later to say that he had talked to my family and my ticket was fine. He didn't have to do that, he could have tried to fine me or made me go to my seat to show my reservation.

Everyone needs to be sure of what train they are getting onto and need to validate any ticket that doesn't have a seat reservation or wasn't bought online. If you do those two things you shouldn't have any issues.

Donna

Posted by
7737 posts

Good reminders of the importance of getting to the train platform in plenty of time to deal with problems like this. But you did say something that I think shows a fundamental misunderstanding on your part:

they were time stamped for 1/2 hour earlier from the vending machine, which made it clear we could not possibly have used them before

The point wasn't that you might have used the unstamped ticket before, but that you would be able to use an unstamped ticket again if you didn't get caught.

And, remember, if your ticket is for a reserved seat on a specific train, there is no need to validate it as it cannot be used any other time.

Posted by
15797 posts

...if we had caught the cheap bus to Termini, we would have spent 1/4 of the money and not gotten on the wrong transport.

Jetlag and disorientation are two of the reasons I often recommend the shuttle buses. They take a little longer than airport express trains but they're almost impossible for confused, bleary eyed arrivals to screw up. And they are sometimes quite a lot cheaper - as in the case from Fiumicino to Termini.

You can usually pay the driver directly, and no validation of tickets is necessary. Pre-reservations can be a good idea for especially busy times of the day, though.

Posted by
518 posts

At large train stations there would definitely be multiple machines, at least one for every track and in other parts of the station.

Posted by
83 posts

We were lucky with our "mishap" last summer. After hiking to Monterosso from Vernazza and enjoying the beach a while, we proceeded to the train station to buy tickets to return to Vernazza. The ticket seller showed us the number 3 in writing ( so I know I didn't misunderstand his Italian) when I asked which platform the train would arrive on. The train came, we boarded, and proceeded to whiz right passed the villages... First stop was La Spezia, where we quickly got off!!!!

We carefully studied the schedule board at La Spezia to figure out how to get back to Vernazza. When the train came, my husband asked a train employee to verify that it would indeed stop at Vernazza.... That we had accidentally ended up where we were.

We boarded the train. Yep-you can see what's coming- I didn't think we needed new tickets, as we were still "in route" to our destination.

The gentleman my husband had talked to came into the car checking tickets. He explained ours were no good, and charged us 5 euro each for new tickets. My husband was going to put up a fuss... But I realized our mistake ( and that the gentleman was being very kind in NOT fining us) and we paid quickly.

Then we watched as he berated a couple in the next seat for not having tickets, and fined them 50 euros each!!

Whew!!!!!!!!

Peg

Posted by
4385 posts

A train conductor is like a cop, they're operating pretty much on their own, there are rules and much of the time it's up to him/her to decide whether to follow them or take advantage of their authority. And who's to say that "fine" ends up going into the company till at the end of the day? Tourists are easy marks and some folks can't help but take advantage. Others go out of their way to help. I guess that's called human nature.

Posted by
78 posts

On our recent trip we took the train from Milan airport (MXP) to Milano Centrale. We validated our tickets and had no problem when the conductor came to check. An American couple sitting in front of us had not validated their tickets and had no idea of this being a requirement. The conductor told them he was nice guy and let them off the hook. Sometimes you get lucky.

Posted by
7737 posts

The accounts by Peg and Roger (and the end of the OP's account) confirm my theory that it never pays in Italy to be confrontational or defensive when in these sorts of situations. The idea that "the customer is always right" is not one that you find in Italy. Instead, you are at the mercy of that person and honey gets you better results than vinegar.

Posted by
32198 posts

Travelling by train in Italy is always an interesting experience, and ticket issues are only one part of that.

I've seen Capotreno's from both sides - some can be lenient and just charge the cost of the ticket or reservation, and others that take the "hard line" approach. With the latter category, pleading ignorance and smiling nicely doesn't work!

I'm in Italy now and so far on this trip NONE of my Regionale tickets have ever been checked. That happens sometimes and I'm sure the one time I forget to validate a ticket is the time my ticket will be checked.

I'll comment further when I'm not using a 4" screen.

Posted by
4535 posts

If you board the wrong train with the wrong tickets, you do stand a chance of being fined for not having a ticket. Most conductors will probably be sympathetic, but not all.

The conductor is also not responsible for you barely making your train and choosing not to time stamp your ticket. Ordering a fine is pretty common practice when it is not time stamped.

I have had Italian conductors yell at me for not having a stamped ticket. I did pretty much the same thing that the OP did and eventually was just asked to leave at the next stop (this was a bus) - but only after threats of police being called and so on. I held my ground (I had more time than money then) and eventually paid nothing. But it wasn't a pleasant experience.

I have seen people all over Europe be fined on the spot for not having valid tickets. Both locals and tourists. There was a suggestion that this is more of an Italian thing - not true at all. One can NEVER expect to just be asked to get off at the next stop.

My suggestion if you ever to find yourself on board with an unstamped ticket (for whatever reason) is to search out the conductor immediately and explain that you didn't get to validate it. Most likely (untested) they will realize that you are not trying to scam the system and therefore will be understanding. If you wait for them to come to you, you are asking them to trust you.

Posted by
120 posts

The first time I traveled to Italy I used Rail Pass, and I was supposed to write down each trip. One time I forgot, and the conductor actually filled it out for me. There are kind souls in Italy, as well.

Posted by
752 posts

After four months of validating my train tickets, I forget to validate at the Napoli train station. It wasn't the first conductor who looked at the ticket and just laughed. It wasn't the second conductor who handed the ticket back to me and never said a word. It was the third conductor who threw a massive fit next to me in the aisle. He talked so fast that I zoned out and said "Non Capisco." I said that more than once. Eventually i became catatonic. I had already given up trying to follow his speeding volley of angry words. He probably threw in plenty of threats too. I wouldn't know. I was so spaced out by then, I felt immune to everything he threw at me. After a long time, he gave me one final mean look and walked away.

Thank God. The truth is I was terrified. I was going to Riardo and there was Nothing outside the windows.

After that I figured out how to help myself remember to validate my tickets. I visualize the validating box on the way to the train station. I pretend it's my friend so it's the first thing I head for when I arrive at the station. Sometimes guys hanging around the validator say it's broken, but they don't know that I don't care. I shove the ticket in and sometimes it comes out with a hanging chad type hole in it. Holes are OK. I found that Conductors don't mind holes. Holes work. Funny looking characters work too!

Posted by
5678 posts

I have to say that all these stories really diminish my desire to revisit Italy. To paraphrase the Liberty Insurance ad, "News Flash! Tourists who don't speak your language will make mistakes and they aren't out to scam the Italian Railway System!" Ye Gods. This is zero tolerance in a new venue. Way back when I traveled in Italy from Brindisi to Roman, to Florence and Venice all by train, thank God we didn't have to worry about this. I know about the need to buy tickets in advance--there are select buses hear in NY--but I also see the bus drivers, just tell the tourists to go buy a ticket. Sometimes they even wait! Now, you cannot dodge the transportation police if you are scamming.

Posted by
4152 posts

Actually, Pamela, there are thousands of tourists who try to scam the system every day. People purposely don't buy or validate tickets and then use the excuse that they're "dumb tourists" and "didn't know we needed to". It's a bunch of crap. It's the responsibility of everyone who plans to travel to another country to find out the rules of that country. Why would a person think that travel is free? There are signs up warning people to validate their tickets and still people get onto trains without doing it and then blame the police or Italy itself for being harsh and not flexible. If you want to travel then you need to do the research into what is expected of you. It's so easy to ask the simple question, "do I need to validate this?" when buying your ticket or before boarding that it makes no sense to not have it done.

I'm sorry but I don't have any sympathy for those who get caught without a valid ticket. There is no excuse. The "I was running to catch the train, I just got off a long haul flight and was exhausted, I was in a new environment and didn't know what to do, I didn't know I needed to validate it, I couldn't find the box, I don't speak the language....." reasons are all just excuses. This might seem harsh, and I'm not trying to be, but blaming a country for not being flexible with their laws is out of line. Who should Italy hold accountable to follow the rules? Just Italians, just Italians who live in that area (as others who are visiting could be considered tourists), just Italians who own homes in that area? No, everyone must follow the rules or suffer the consequences.

Donna

Posted by
8293 posts

Donna, you said what I have been thinking all along. Thanks.

Posted by
32701 posts

Well this individual seems not to like train crew doing their job wherever it is.

On the 3rd of this month, in reply to an informative post warning of a strike he wrote:

"The RMT Union is planning a strike ..."
Aren't they always. What are the workshy, lefty twonks whinging about this time?

Nice way to talk about fellow humans, isn't it?

Posted by
1 posts

The OP shared their experience. Maybe a benefit of the doubt is warranted. Whatever the intent of people, it is on their conscience. It is not anyone's job to worry about the other travelers and who paid or did not pay. It is a personal choice to believe or not believe the OP's experience.

Just because someone has traveled frequently or knows a certain country better than a newer traveler does not give anyone carte blanche to demean another's experience or opinion. Certain things were implied, and it was reasonable to infer what was meant.

We have seen varying opinions on many things on this forum. But, at times, I have read the replies of certain long-time posters who have frequently and consistently come across with very harsh, sarcastic, brash, and condescending tones to new and regular posters. Has it been forgotten that we were all "new" at something at least once? - a job, a move to a new neighborhood or city, traveling? Some people are very good at organizing, planning and researching. Others may not be. If a person no longer has the patience or the inclination to show such, then perhaps this forum is not for that person.

Posted by
15797 posts

As we could use a little lightening up here…

I was so freaked out about the whole validation thing on our first trip that I tried to stuff EVERY ticket into the machines - even the ones for reserved seats which don't really fit and didn't need it.

Yes, you may giggle. I'm sure the locals did.

Posted by
11613 posts

Thanks, Kathy! I laughed. Last year I was so used to the Italian validation process that I tried stuffing a ticket into I-don't-know-what/kind-of-box in Brussels, and the train staff just laughed out loud, and gently pointed out that "this isn't necessary here".

Posted by
15797 posts

Tourists can be both a source of annoyance and endless amusement for the locals depending on what sort you are? I'd much rather make them laugh than grouch, I guess!

Posted by
518 posts

For every post regarding how unforgiving the Italians (or fill in the blank with any other country) are to tourists, I just have to ask, how kind, understanding, and helpful are we to tourists here in our own country? Especially with regards to public transit. You're rushing to work on the subway and a tourist family is struggling to negotiate the ticket vending machine and the entrance gates, holding up the line in the process. Do you help or do you yell at them?