Traffic violation

This is what you did: http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/driving/traffic_cameras_speeding.htm

What you did was rent a car in Florence. Florence has numerous Zona Traffico Limitado (ZTLs) throughout the historical and other areas of the city. Many of the rental car agencies are right in the middle of one of them. Avis has one at Via Borgognissanti 128 in Florence. If you rented from this one, it's right in the middle of one of the ZTLs. They should have clearly told you that there is one road out and one road back in to their agency that avoids the the ZTL cameras that takes a picture of your license plate. Whatever you may have been told by Avis, you somehow entered the ZTL and the camera got you. The cameras and warnings are clearly marked. However, all signage is in Italian. Still, it is your responsibility to be aware of these cameras. Reportedly, the City of Florence writes 600 tickets a day to people getting caught by these cameras. What will happen next is that you will receive a notice from some type of collection agency asking for about $150. This includes all of the late charges and extra fees as you missed the court date where you could have appeared. They never inform you of the court date. You should receive this notice just before one year from the infraction. Here's a link to more information on the ZTLs. You obviously went through one of the blue T locations. http://www.florence-on-line.com/maps-of-florence/florence-driving-map-ztl.html

They have a photo of the car's license plate and the date and time stamp. They trace the car back to the rental agency and find out who had rented the car during that period of time. There is no "think"ing about it, they have proof it was the car you rented so you're responsible. My advice is to pay the fine when it comes to avoid the collection agencies they are now sending after people. Donna

She probably committed a ZTL violation, but the other possibility is a speeding ticket. You can get a speeding ticket in Italy without being aware of it at the time. Speed cameras (called "Autovelox"'s) take a picture of your plate and trace you through the rental agency, just like with a ZTL. The process is all automated; no officer pulls you over. You get the ticket a year later. You also get dinged by the rental agency for an "administrative fee", which is their charge for providing your identifying information to the traffic authorities. Bottom line: if you're going to drive in Italy (or any foreign country), you've gotta learn their road signs. Bottom line #2: best not to drive in Italian cities.

Hertz in Italy billed me for a ticket and later an administration fee. I didn't have a ZTL problem. My car received a speeding ticket by a camera/radar that was mounted on the causeway going over to Venice. It was literally on a bridge. And I didn't remember speeding in a 1.2 liter car with few horsepower. And, you cannot do anything about it--but report the infraction here.

France, As the others have mentioned, you most likely passed through either a photo radar (speed) Camera or one of the dreaded Zona Traffico Limitato (limited traffic) areas in Florence, which are also enforced with automated Cameras. Florence is extensively covered by ZTL Cameras, so many unsuspecting drivers are caught by those. The charge of €41 was for the rental firm providing your name and other information to the authorities. Every rental agreement that I've ever seen has had a clause which states "the renter agrees to pay all traffic infractions and administrative costs" (or something to that effect) so you agreed to that when you signed on the dotted line. You'll be receiving a ticket in the near future, most likely from European Municipality Outsourcing, with more details on the offence. One other point to mention is that some members of the HelpLine have reported that the European agencies are now using North American collection agencies, so ignoring the ticket likely won't be an option (not that I'm suggesting you'd do that). Good luck!

Thank you all for your input. I figured I was SOL. I'll just wait for my ticket now and pay it. Oh well, live and learn.

The traffic ticket may be due to either an Autovelox camera (for speeding ) or a ZTL infraction. It is NOT TRUE that AVIS office in Via Borgo Ognissanti is inside the ZTL. The ZTL has itineraries where access is permitted to access Parking areas. They are highlighted in yellow in the map below. One of them is via Borgo Ognissanti where AVIS is located, that is via Borgo Ognissanti at the corner with via Curtatone. http://www.florence-on-line.com/images/florence-driving-map.html

Yes, the rental agency will rat you out and charge you a fee to do so. I got a traffic ticket in Florence last year, and it was about 1 year before I was made aware of it. I had permission to be within the ZTL. They didn't provide any proof of the infraction other than the location (no photo or video). Being that I use this route out of the city all the time, I couldn't comprehend exactly what the infraction was. It was rather non-specific as to the nature of the crime. I have yet to pay the fine. I may eventually. I was also notified of another offense in Sorrento. I violated the ZTL there during the same trip, yet have never received a citation.

"Yes, the rental agency will rat you out..." They have no choice about it. Italian law requires them to provide your information to the authorities upon request.

This is no different than the scheme that Redflex has worked out with local governments all across America (including my own city). It is touted as a traffic safety program, when it is really just a money-making operation. I'm sure the operators of those camera systems are wining and dining the local politicians.

They can only be wining and dining if people are actually breaking the law. If no one was breaking the law they wouldn't need the cameras and there would be no "scheme" needed. Donna

"...it is really just a money-making operation..." I'm sympathetic to the Italians. Cities like Florence & Rome are centuries old, and are visited by millions each year. If they didn't restrict traffic in some way in the historic sections, it'd be utter chaos. Not to mention the damage done to ancient buildings and monuments by exhaust emissions.

I would caution anyone from believing reports of collection agencies working in the US to attempt to collect ZTL fines from US citizens. This is something routinely trotted out as a fact by some, but I have never seen any actual documentation to support it. The "I knew a guy who knew a guy" anecdotal evidence approaches urban legend status, but I personally have yet to see one person state first-hand they were contacted by a collection agency. Not suggesting you don't pay fines, just pointing out the distinction between fact and crap.

There have been a few posters on this site that have claimed to be contacted directly by collection agencies. Of course, the posters might not be real, just like dead girlfriends... ;-)

Douglas is correct. There are some who like to play the role of the contrarian but the fact is that several posters have reported recently being contact by collection agencies within the US. This appears to be a recently development and you can confirm it by searching for prior discussions on this subject.

Just because you haven't heard it first hand doesn't make it crap. Do the research and see for yourself. It's better to just pay the fines when you get them than to have a collection agency called in to settle the matter. Donna

Neil, I've never seen any actual documentation for many things yet I am quite sure they exist. What do you want people to do? Send the collection letter to you so you can see it? You will need to become considerably more public so that can happen. Were you not watching when the posts were made here saying what had happened? "Trotted out" is a bit rude, don't you think? Do you somehow have more credibility than the other posters here?

Anyone is welcome to prove me wrong. Won't hurt my feelings a bit. But I stand by my statement...still haven't seen a first hand account of someone posting they personally received certified mail from a legitimate collection agency attempting to collect on an unpaid ZTL fine originally issued by EMO. "Legitimate" is intentional here. Believe it or not, there is quite a bit of mail fraud perpetrated by faux "collection agencies." Don't believe me?...ask a cop. My own search found nothing..link to an RS post anyone?

Unfortunately most traffic posts get really heated and then removed. There were two specific threads where the person said a collection agency had contacted them over the fines but those are two of the threads that have gone missing. You don't need to believe us if you don't want to. The fact is that the Italian authorities have hired several different agencies in different countries to collect these fines. It's just something people should be aware of before they rent a car. donna

I think it's a little amusing that traffic violation topics would be so heated that they would be removed. It seems that there are so many other things for us to fight about....like where the best espresso in Bologna is. (there was a VERY heated discussion/debate on Trip Adviser about this topic.)

Two first=hand accounts, one from the US, one from Canada: 4/23/12 10:35 AM CR New York, New York USA Posts: 22 Send Private Message "We too got stung in Florence back in Aug 2009, apparently traveling down a restricted road. What a scam! We didn't receive our notification until Sept 2010 - more than 12 months after our trip. We immediately thought it was fraudulent especially after the news in the international media about the widespread photo-radar and traffic light tampering scam that has been going on in Italy. Apparently Italian municipalities have dolled out more than $16 million dollars in bogus fines. According to the reports we've seen about 20 local government officials and equipment vendors have been arrested for fraudulently skimming off the fine proceeds from these rigged cameras and traffic lights. We got chased down by a debt collection agency here a few weeks ago - who we didn't know from Adam - but have since got confirmation that they are working for EMO the domestically appointed Italian contractor. It makes you wonder how many people here in the US have been stung by this scam and already paid these bogus fines. Looks like it could get interesting, especially when motorist start asking for their money back. If you live in the US beware this agency is very aggressive. Given that it only seems to be foreign tourist that get unfairly caught by these traffic cameras, because they don't know the roads and don't understand the Italian on the signs, it must represent a big cash-cow, and a very convenient way for Italian municipalities to top up their empty coffers - I suppose it could be looked upon as and added tourist tax."
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And this: 8/9/12 6:39 PM Tammy Toronto, ON Canada Posts: 1 Send Private Message "This has been such a nightmare. I just found this forum today. Until now I did not know what ZTL tickets were, and thought it was a scam. Okay, okay, I'm educated now... but none the less, even having the forum advice might not have helped. After all, the forum says Tuscany is the one place you want to rent a car.
You see, I rented the car to stay in Tuscany for two weeks, and got nabbed trying to RETURN the car at the train station in Rome. And I wasn't even driving... my former boyfriend was. And now they have a collection agency bothering me... and they've increased the fine to $650!!!! Quite a lot considering I wasn't the one driving and I didn't know I had done anything wrong for almost a year after. I just finished 2 years at school retraining to try to get a job after my previous career disappeard, and to try to make ends meet rent out one of the rooms in my house to a student for about 650 a month -- and I have to feed him for that, so it's not all profit -- so this bill is DEVASTATING. Anyway, I wish a) signs near tourist places like train stations were in English and b) they couldn't arbitrarily increase fines to more than double. That's like a 100 per cent interest rate. And for those who are going to say ignorance is no excuse... yes, well, there should still be some basic fairness. Doubling and tripling fines they don't even tell you about for almost a year is just plain unfair."

Ok, I was doing fine with this conversation re: ZTL, until the last example from 'Tammy in Toronto', who was peeved that the signs IN ITALY weren't in English for her benefit and that even though she rented the car, and let someone else drive, she is responsible for the ticket. The utter nerve of those Italians thinking she's responsible! head.desk!

It's not a scam, it's the law, Italian citizens get tickets too, a government can outsource to private companies, the authorities have a year to notify you, the fines increase if they remain unpaid, if the first notification is over one year from the date of the violation you can make a case for yourself, otherwise...

@Sasha, You've made a good point by posting those two examples. Tammy and others should realize that it would be impossible to have traffic signs covering every language. Germans, French and other Europeans also get "nicked" by the ZTL areas, so it's incumbent on those renting cars to familiarize themselves with local signs (and traffic regulations) in the countries they're driving in. In the past, I've been provided with a chart of European road signs with my I.D.P. The experiences described with aggressive collection agencies seems to be what others have reported here. I don't expect this situation is going to improve any time in the near future. Cheers!

We had a similar experience in May 2013. Rented a car from the same Avis in Florence, drove the car in the Tuscan countryside for a week, and returned the car to Avis in Florence. Apparently, during the several minutes we were driving on Florence streets in our effort to return the car (outside of the ZTL, as noted in a prior post), we managed to drive in a "public transport reserved lane." We just received the notice to pay 106.23 euros. For the record, we were surrounded by other cars at all times during these several tense minutes on Florence roadways, so there must have been a lot of cars in that bus lane with us.

I've read a few threads on this topic and while I respect the right of any municipality to establish and enforce whatever traffic laws deemed necessary and appropriate, apparently Florence alone issues more than 1,200 traffic violation notices per day and generates 52 million euros in traffic fines per year (see http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm#.Urxf84X1eAE). Several questions come to mind: Are there really that many scofflaws in Florence? Is it possible to drive anywhere in Florence, even outside the ZTL, without receiving a ticket? If the goal is to protect the city center, might there be a better way of accomplishing that objective? Are various elements of the system as well marked as they should be? [No, I’m not suggesting that signage should be in English, but there are way too many people posting to these threads that have no idea that they have violated any law until the ticket arrives.] Is this really more about generating revenue than protecting antiquities? We happily spent thousands of euros during our 2-week stay in Italy, but this relatively small 106 euro ticket is an unfortunate coda to an otherwise good trip.

This is a year old posting.

Many cities in Italy are simply speed traps. And they use cameras with radars to do their work. Nothing you can do about it, other than religiously watch the speed limit signs.

They got me going less than 2 mph over the speed limit on the causeway going over to Venice--where there are no people, no streets, no other cars/traffic and no nothing. It cost me $184.

Just hope the city doesn't get around to sending you that certified letter. You have to go through a payment service in Europe to wire transfer the funds in Euros to a city for a reasonable amount.

David, if they get you just by 3 km/h on the notice, that means you were actually driving at least 11km/h above the speed limit.

The 80 speed limit is well posted on the causeway giving access to Tronchetto. GPS devices that inform speed are also fully updated on that.

I've been reading these posts over the last several years and have been curious about something. All these stories involve rentals which is expected since most here go to Italy for vacation. We lived there for a little over two years and had a company leased car. Though the name on the lease was the company my name and info was connected to it as the operator. I freely admit I was a speed demon leadfoot. I drove around a good bit of Italy from the Dolomites to Sicily, Venice to Ivrea and most areas in between. Mostly autostrada and haulin' butt. I know I entered ZTL's at least twice in Castelrotto and Cesena and suspect I did it unknowingly a few more times. (Never did drive in Firenze though). I think the fastest I ever did was 180 on A14 between Puglia and Emilia Romagna but I would usually average 150/160. There were several other Americans in the same situation with leases etc. and who drove just as fast or faster than I did. I did this from the first week I was in Italy in March of 2010 until June of 2012. Point being is I never got one ticket. Either in the mail or the one time I was actually pulled over. I waited with dread for awhile for either that or the leasing company to contact my company about fines. Never happened. None of my co-workers ever got anything either. Wondered if I would get something either in the mail or from the company I worked for after returning to the states. Year and a half later and nothing. None of my co-workers got anything after returning to the states either as far as I'm aware of. The one time I was pulled over they were more concerned about my military issued DL and that my IDP was expired than my speed (which they weren't sure of anyways). I'm just wondering how it's possible for me to be clear when so many here go for a week or two, travel to two or three cities and rack up fines. Sometimes multiple fines.

I one received a ticket in the mail for a supposed offense from over 5 years prior. This is Italy after all...

Yeah, haven't completely ruled out something showing up one day.

I had been tentatively planning to rent a car on a trip to Italy this summer, but after reading this thread I think it's public transit for me. Somehow I doubt that all the fines are strictly legitimate, i.e., deserved due to some genuine infraction. But even if the overwhelming majority are on the up and up, trying to follow all the traffic rules sounds like more trouble than it is worth in a country with great public transit.