Traffic ticket More than a year later. Consequences of NOT paying?

You were in a rental car?

If you broke the law pay the fine.

It is typical that it can take a year or more to get a fine from Italy. They go through a drawn out process to find out who the car belongs to and who was driving it.

As for the consequences of not paying, they are sending collection agencies after people who refuse to pay their fines. This could mean higher fines and marks against your credit score. Pay the fine. It's the right thing to do for breaking the law.

Donna

I don't know about Spain, but in Portugal if you don't pay the road tolls, they won't let you back in the country. You owe it, so pay it!

Do a search in the gray box at the top of the page or under the menu if you have a small screen, and you will find dozens of similar questions.

The bottom line at the end of virtually all is that you earned the ticket so pay it.

Of course one of the consequences will be that your conscience will always be there telling you that you are normally law abiding but you decided to go to the dark side, and you will wonder what the next temptation will be. And your mind, late at night, will have you wondering when the knock on the door will be.

Sorry, but nobody here is going to advise you that's it's ok not to pay the fine, regardless of the possibility of little or no consequences.

It was a rental car, and we saw no sign that said we were driving in a restricted zone. We are not trying to break the law, but how do we know they are correct? We are careful drivers, speak italian, and have been to Italy many times.

If you are a decent guy, and I hope you are, you'll pay the ticket and be done with it. If you are not a decent guy you will not pay and you will brag to all your friends about it. That's what not-decent guys do.

It was a long time ago.. I doubt you can really remember the exact streets you were on that day over a year ago.. so saying " we didn't see the sign" doesn't mean much. These tickets are issued because of photos of your car in the area.. so you must have missed the sign.. its a very easy mishap..

The tickets is likely not more then you pay for a dinner out.. so just pay it and be done with it .

This question.. what are the consequences of not paying.. has been asked many times in the 10+ yrs I've been on this forum but I have never read an answer to the question that wasn't preaching to pay it or speculation as to what could happen.

I'd like to know what exactly will happen if it's not paid.

I suspect no one actually knows. If "they" can actually do anything, it probably depends on what town gave the ticket, ie, how organized and efficient they are in pursuing you.

Does anyone definitively know the answer to the question?

Even if " they" can't actually do anything about it if you do not pay, does that excuse you from not paying? I really do not mean to be Miss Goody Shoes here but to me it is black and white. You got a ticket? Answer: pay it.

Susan: we received notification from Budget France that we had been flagged by a camera and our credit card was automatically charged a $45 admin fee to turn over our name and address to some French authority. Since we were never contacted with any fine notice the fine went unpaid, now 14 months. Nothing has happened.

Our experience was the full Kafka: although we paid this fee we don't know what our crime was, where it supposedly happened, or even who made the accusation. It is hard to look at such a system as not being royally f-ed up.

Before our recent trip to Italy we read many online horror stories about rental cars, various camera enforcement speeding/red light/driving in restricted zones/parking tickets, many of which have gone to collections agencies in the U.S. after being raised to $2000 or so. If I recall, these agencies can be successfully fought off as the process does not have legitimacy in U.S. Court (or something).

In any event, those places in Europe where this type of enforcement exists I will never rent a car in. It's way too unfriendly to tourists.

To answer the question without judgement, if you are American, Canadian, or English nothing will happen. You may get a notice in the mail that will look officious but is unenforceable. Your rental car company will or has hit you up for about 50E for giving the authorities your information. There are no Italian governmental enforcement mechanisms for traffic violations by non-EC cars (England declined to provide its driver's info).

We just got a notice that we did pay a toll in Italy. We were there in 2012, for the life of me I do not remember. The total charge is about 8 euros, I am going to ay it since it is small.

First of all if you received a notice from the Municipal Police of the City of Lucca, the notice should state the type of infraction, with the date and time.
If you don't pay, what happens depends on the city. Some cities, assign the debt to an international collection agency. These agencies have affiliates in North America. They will contact you and harass you at every hour of the day, as they normally do. They could possibly refer you to one of the credit bureaus, but I don't know if they actually do. However they will likely not take you to an American court if you don't pay. The debt is not enforceable in American courts and it would not be large enough to justify court costs. To make that debt enforceable in the US, the creditor (collection agency) must first apply for recognition of the debt in an American Court and actually prove they were assigned the debt.
If you go back to Italy within 5 years (that is the statute of limitations for traffic violations) you could face consequences if you get pulled over and your name somehow shows up. You will not be arrested when you enter the EU, because traffic violations are not communicated to the immigration authorities.
Another possible consequence, although I do not know if this really happens, is that the rental car company might put your name in a black list and possibly prevent you from renting from them again.

Roberto summed it pretty well. There has been a couple of reports on this site about the debt being turned over to local collection agencies. But no follow up to those reports. Personally doubt if they could go into a US court and get a judgement. That would have to be the next step. However, nothing prevents any collection from putting a notice with the credit bureaus of an unpaid debt. And then you get the pleasant job of fighting the credit bureaus to remove incorrect information. And, of course, during that whole it will be a drag on your FICO score.

I don't think anyone can advise you one way or another because we just haven't reading anything in the past few years about how they are going to collect the fine. But as the world gets smaller with less privacy, who knows. I would be concerned about credit reports unless you have no future need for credit.

Normally, you would have received a ding on the credit card you used to rent the car as a "service fee" for telling the Lucca authorities your name and address. Did you notice that?

Thank you Tom, Mike, Roberto and Frank! Finally, an answer to the question.

I have never gotten a ZTL or speeding ticket, or any moving violation, anywhere in Europe so the answer doesn't affect me personally, I just wanted to know the answer to the question after all these years.

I am astounded that the moderation allows a discussion on how to circumvent a foreign law. If these are your intentions, please stay home. Italy will be better without you.

shoppe, let's ask the question another way. Suppose you get a job that sends you to Italy, before your passport number gets changed. Do you still care about how it's their fault for not telling you that you were entering a ZTL? Or do you care about your own best interests?

I got a ticket for a moving violation (in New York City) that I did not agree with. But I know that when it's a case of your word against the cop's, it's pointless to plead not guilty. You could say that I have a stronger moral reason to refuse to pay that you have. Your attitude seems to be, why should I pay if they can't do anything to me? Welcome to investment banking, buddy.

No one has suggested how to circumspect the laws.. they have asked what will happen to them if they do not follow the law.. not quite the same thing. Of course it suggests that if there are no real consquences then some less ethical folks may choose to not follow the rules and pay the fine.. but I don't think anyone thinks that's ok.

Community Guideline #8 is admittedly a bit vague: Do not help people break laws. Speaking of the existence of law breaking is OK. Sharing how to circumvent visa restrictions, scam hotels, or perform other illegal acts is prohibited.

I appreciate all the replies from people who did not assume I am just a person who is a law breaker. I am NOT trying to break a law. But getting a ticket over a year later out of the blue was a shock. Thank you to the woman who said she just wanted to know. I also have heard about people driving in Italy for a weekend and getting 6 tickets for something that they had no idea even happened.

I'm still curious, did you get a charge in the $50 range on your credit card from the car rental agency between when you returned from Italy and when you received the ZTL ticket in the mail?

Shoppe: only 12 U.S. states have camera enforcement for traffic laws. Many states have had courts rule such devices contrary to state and U.S. Constitutional protections. Those of us only used to immediate enforcement of traffic or parking violations justifiably feel this months/years delay of enforcement utterly bogus. It's simply not worthy of payment.

My solution is car rentals in Europe only where camera enforcement is rare (UK, Ireland, Scandinavia, Czech Republic, etc). Trains work for the most part elsewhere anyway.

ZTL (restricted traffic zones) are a pain, however those violations are really easy to avoid. They are well signaled. If you rent a car, just park outside the historical centers and find also accommodations outside those areas and you will do fine. I'm still amazed that people get those types of fines, because they are really easy to avoid if you look at the signs.

What I find difficult is to comply with speed limits. Even here in California I have a hard time driving under 75-80 mph on the interstate. I haven't gotten a speeding ticket yet (in California or Italy) but I don't know how long my luck will last. Especially in Italy where they are enforced by cameras.

But in spite of the risks of incurring into tickets, I encourage everybody to rent a car when visiting rural areas of Italy. There is simply no other way to truly enjoy those areas.

Traffic law is different from other law, even here in Toledo (traffic cameras are up here). The burden of proof of innocence is on the ticket recipient, as it is in European countries that use traffic cameras. The photo of your license plate is proof of the violation occurring.

Carrying on a bit:

These systems are getting a lot more sophisticated. They can photograph the driver's face to help prove guilt. Being fined with no proof of who's driving is a major constitutional challenge. They have also replaced still photos of license plates with continuous video so a technician can verify the violation is not justified before the fine is sent, say sliding on ice slightly into the intersection when stopping for a red light and realizing that the safest action is to clear the intersection and drive through the red.

Constitutional issues still to be addressed: enforcement cameras remain the ownership of a vendor who keeps a cut of the take (40% or so). So unlike a traditional traffic stop where the local govt is fining you for a dangerous action, a vendor is making a citizen's arrest for profit. Can a person get a fair trial in this type of legal action for profit scenario?

An additional constitutional issue would be certain classes would be excluded from enforcement, say those who's faces are covered for religious reasons so can't be cross referenced with file driver license photos.

Please note that the US constitution is irrilevant to this thread. We are talking about an administrative violation that happened in Italy where the relevant laws are the Italian ones. Would the original poster write to Lucca's Polizia Municipale, they would be able to send him/her a time stamped photo of him/her entering a forbidden zone with a car. They traced the license plate to the car's owner and the car's owner declared it was rented to the original poster. This is how the fine originated; as long as the fine is notified to the car owner within one year, it is legal. All forbidden zones are marked with signs.

What I find offensive, as an Italian, are people discussing the rights and wrongs of not paying a legally issued fine. You have misbehaved, you pay the fine, stop. This is the decent thing to do. Frankly, we have enough people coming from abroad and thinking that in Italy you can do as you please. If you are one of them please stay home.

Shoppe, it's very easy to get a ticket for driving in a bus lane, speeding or entering a ZTL. Not being aware of committing the infraction just means they weren't paying as much attention to their driving as they should have been.

Anyway, avoid the collection agencies and possible marks on your credit score by paying the ticket.

Donna

A few more observations: As Donna says, it is very easy to get a camera generated fine in Europe even driving your best. In the US, typically only very flagrant traffic law abusers are caught so there's a stigma with getting a fine in the US, that you must be a bad driver. Even safe, normal driving in Europe can trigger a camera fine.

I have no problem, not the slightest, with Italians "breaking US law" and drinking alcohol at age 18 when in the US.

As to safety, the jury is still out as to whether enforcement cameras make roads safer. Some studies say yes, others do not. Typically locals know where the fixed enforcement is and adjust their driving to accommodate that so it becomes a de facto tourist tax. The average in Europe is 50% of camera enforcement fines go to tourists.

Take for example viale Guidoni, a large avenue leading to Florence airport. It saw on average one or two dead persons per year in road accidents, till the moment the authorities put two speed cameras and a camera to check for compliance to red lights. Since that moment there were no more fatal accidents, and we are talking over a period of about ten years. Probably ten or more human lives spared. Of course locals know about the speed cameras and nobody speeds anymore. But cameras are preceded by signs so everybody are warned as well. Of course they are signed in Italian (or should they be signed in all the languages of the world, just in case a tourist from Thailand or Chile drives by?).

If there are speed cameras or no drive zones, there are often serious reasons, they are not necessarily there to raise cash from tourists. So what?

I'm with Iachera on this. When you drive somewhere you are not used to driving, you need to learn the rules there and obey them. That includes knowing what the signs say and mean.

My husband has a heavy foot. He's gotten speeding tickets in France and Switzerland (don't even ask about the US). The French ones came quickly. The Swiss one arrived almost 2 years after the infraction.

We've paid them all promptly. We never thought of the speed cameras as somehow targeting tourists, but rather as targeting speeders.

We have also driven in northern Italy. Fortunately, he kept his speed down and never strayed into a ZTL or anywhere he shouldn't have driven. But if he had gotten fined there, we would have paid just like with other countries and at home.

I add European traffic fines to my costs for the car rental and hence for the overall costs of the trip.

Respect the country where you are driving, obey their traffic laws and pay the fines if you break them.

I don't agree with some of the comments above on how these infractions are handled in the US.

It is not true that in America you get stopped only for the most egregious violations. In some jurisdictions you get fined for going just 5 mph above the speed limit. My only fine (in 1991) is because I did not come to a full stop at a stop sign, I only almost stopped but the wheels were still slightly moving, at an intersection where I was the only car for miles. The officer was hiding there just catching suckers like me. I don't see the difference between a hiding officer stopping people for minor violations just to meet their monthly quota and a camera.

It is also not true that cameras aren't used extensively in America. Here in Fremont, nearly all major intersections have cameras catching people going through red lights. The fine comes on the mail. It's a high def photo so you can see the face of the driver. The owner has the burden of proof he was not the driver. My brother in law got one of those.

In California so far cameras aren't used for speeding, however CHiP officers hiding behind bushes with a radar are much more common than speed cameras in Italy. At least cameras tend to be in the same place, policemen move around.

"But cameras are preceded by signs so everybody are warned as well. " This isn't true in every country, cameras
are not signed in France (but they are signed in the UK).

"I add European traffic fines to my costs for the car rental and hence for the overall costs of the trip." This is smart, practical advice. It can be hard to obey every law the first time one drives a road even at home and trying one's best. Taking offense is definitely the wrong approach and I think a lot of Europeans would be surprised that some Americans do take offense.

Here is the list of US communities with camera enforcement: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/printablelist?print-view

There are approximately 25,000 communities in the US and only 442 have red light cameras. An additional 138 have speed cameras but they mostly overlap the red light list. the largest cities, New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, have camera enforcement.

Kind of interesting, although the Europe map is less complete and does not show restricted entry or parking zone cameras.

http://www.photoenforced.com/us.html

http://www.photoenforced.com/europe.html

Bingo, Tom: Chicago's one of the 442 that do have red-light cameras. They're brutal...

Living in suburbia, I only drive into the city when I absolutely have to, and because it's gridlock much of the time on the city streets--at any given time of day--one instinctively tries to make a light when it has turned yellow. And that's where they getcha. They also have such a backlog that you often don't receive the citation for 2-3 months. As in, "I was where? When?' And the pictures tell the story--oh yeah...

Although I would probably advise shoppe to pay the SOB and be done with it, not receiving any notice from the municipality of Lucca for a year makes me want to fight it. Saying oh well, that's Italy doesn't cut it with me. I've been to the homeland twice, have not rented a car, and won't in the future either. Trains are fine with me.

Jay, the law in Italy is they have up to one year from the time they find out who was driving to issue the ticket. It's their rules for their country. You agree to these rules when you rent a car there. You also agree to the service fees imposed by the rental companies. I don't understand the desire to fight a ticket that is a legal ticket. If they have a photo of the car and plate driving in a ZTL and you were the one who had rented the car then why would you try to fight the ticket? Just because it didn't get to you on your timetable doesn't mean it's not legitimate. Comparing how Italy or other countries in Europe do things to how things are done in the U.S. is pointless. Their rules are their rules.

Donna

I hope that the OP is not bothered by the ongoing, somewhat related discussion.

Donna: In my case in France, I have a right to be peeved without being presented with any details of the fine. I mean Budget France completely screwed up my reservation, it was at least 100 euros over my printed out online reservation which I had with me and I had to return to the airport the next day on my vacation time to get a manager to give me the rate I had booked (apparently the evening staff cannot override the computer's incorrect rate). Why would they then suddenly be a competent organization and handle this fine correctly? Without even being told where the fine occurred (oops, we were in Tours that day) we don't know if they even had the correct month or vehicle.

As I have said previously, prefer to not bother with cars and this year or two delay on what might eventually come in the mail.

Chicago: How is bad weather is handled in camera fines? Do they just ignore periods of heavy snow or freezing rain? There are times where a person has to run a red light to "be safe" in foul weather. Sudden stopping may not be possible and it is more likely if one forces the car into a skid that it would just leave a worse, icier situation for the next driver to come along.

If you are driving fast enough to "have to" run a red light then you are not driving for the conditions, and are unsafe.

I was driving at 20 mph in heavy snow and was stopped by police who said I was too fast for the conditions.

This has gone definitely off-topic, but interesting nonetheless...

Donna, as my post states, I would advise the OP to pay the ticket. Doesn't mean I would have to like it, however, if it happened to me. In my two trips exploring Italy, I have become an expert at assimilation in large cities and small villages as well. And I was not aware of the 1-year law to issue tickets in Italy. Another reason not to drive there.

Ah, Tom, being up in the land of 10,000 lakes you understand! Yes, in snowy, icy weather, in your state or my city, the red light cameras take on a whole different meaning. In those conditions, I drive like a senior citizen, with a two-car-length force field around me. A hard stop to avoid even a yellow light almost guarantees you will be hit from behind. But if you happen to run one & see the tell-tale flash, the gendarmes behind the camera system don't give a whit what time of year it is--you're going to get your ticket. The city being billions of dollars in the hole pretty much cements that.

Nigel, that was a slight exaggeration of mine upthread. I don't run red lights in the city as a rule. If I did, I'd have a thicket of tickets in the mail or I'd be constantly stopped by one of many 'Chicago's Finest'. I've gotten about one red light ticket a year for the past three since the program was instituted, not a bad percentage considering how often I have to be there.

The time notification of traffic violations in Italy are:

• For a vehicle registered in Italy: 90 days.

• For a vehicle registered in a foreign country: 360 days

• In case the vehicle is a rental vehicle registered in Italy:

  -Within 90 days the authorities must notify the owner (rental company), as noted above
  -The rental company has 60 days to communicate the name of the client (driver) who actually committed the infraction
  -From the date the authorities receive the name of the driver from the rental company the authorities must notify the driver within the following terms:

  -90 days, if the driver (renter) resides in Italy.
  -360 days, if the driver (renter) resides outside of Italy.

Payment must be made within 60 days from the notification, to avoid additional charges.

In case you are contesting the fine, you must do so, in Italian, by writing to either the Prefect of the Province in which the infraction occurred, or the so called Giudice di Pace (Peace Judge) within the same jurisdiction.

Depending on which jurisdiction you got your fine from, you might be able to see the photo of the car at the moment of the infraction online, by going to the link provided in the fine notification.

As I explained earlier, the only known risks of not paying are:
1 - You get harassed by an American collection agency affiliate of an international network (we use those agencies in our hospitals to collect debts from foreign tourists who get admitted to our hospitals ER, especially in SF, and not pay). There is also the possibility the agency might report you to a Credit Bureau for failure to pay your debt. Not sure how easy it would be for you to have that removed from your credit

2 - You return to Italy within 5 years and get caught at a police checkpoint

I also agree with those who say that you must obey the rules of the country where you are driving, regardless of whether the signs might be different or in the local language only.

If I'm an Italian who speaks no English, rent a car to drive from SF to Sacramento, and I'm pulled over driving at 80 mph, I cannot claim that I thought the sign I-80 (the interstate between SF and Sacramento) was the speed limit. That would make it very convenient for those driving on 101 along the SF Peninsula.

So saying that the International - No Motorvehicles sign does not exist in America is no excuse.

Just to add to Roberto's explanation of time limits Italy imposes, there is another wrinkle to be aware of (forgive me though, I do not recall my source, so going by memory) and that is in regards to those that reside outside of Italy. The 360 days or one year may more accurately apply to EU residents where there is some reciprocity between drivers licenses between EU members, so definitely, for a German, if not notified in a year, the issue goes away, but if they fail to pay, their license or driving record can be adversely affected as well. This is some of the teeth put into laws in the EU.

It is a bit more unclear for someone from the US or Canada, and the one year time limit may not apply, true, they cannot get your license taken away or penalize you with "points", but the fine does become an outstanding Civil claim, which could affect you either through Collections activity or on a later trip.

I got a speeding ticket from Germany (or Austria?) several years ago -- apparently from a radar camera that I didn't even see after I exited from the highway and approached a town. Anyway, the speeding ticket was about $15-20, the administrative charge from the rental company was about $25-30, and the charge from my bank in the US to do a bank-to-bank payment was about $50! There seemed to be no other way for me to pay the ticket.

Thank you Roberto for all the information. I paid this morning online. I now know the rules that neither the rental car agency or the Hertz were able to communicate. Thank you very much.