I recall RS saying that service fees are built-in to restaurant tabs. Only give a few EU if the service is exceptional. But I am in Italy now, and almost none of the restaurants will allow you to add a tip to a credit card payment. One said that it was against the law in Italy to charge more to a credit than the total of the bill - so you have to leave it as cash.
I asked an Italian friend, and she says they leave 20% tips.
Is there any clarification about what to do?
Tipping is not necessary or expected.
Your Italian friend is flat out wrong.
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/italy/restaurant-tipping
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/italy/tipping-ac4fd967-923a-4ccb-9fcb-9f4442b7d7ff
Your Italian friend is not simply wrong: if she is really Italian, she is actually lying and she knows it.
There is no line for adding a tip because the "US style" mandatory tips are unknown and any money added to the bill this way would go to the restaurant, not to the waiter. Same for the bread&cover charge and the service fee: none of them goes to the waiter
A table can round up the bill, as an example if the bill is 48 € and you pay cash you can leaves a 50 € note. That's what Italians mean when they speak about tipping.
Note: the table rounds up, not each customer. In short, there is nothing wrong in not-tipping and the waiters' salary is not your business.
I have known this friend for 10 years, and she is a very nice lady. She is not in the restaurant business. So why would she lie to me? Several waiters in various restaurants explained that the cover charge goes to the owner, but the service is not included.
Over in Austria, the same thing but the waiters were a bit more aggressive about asking for tips.
When did this change that the service charge is not built into the check?
Last May, I had a waiter demand a tip at a restaurant in Naples. I told him I paid the coperto and no I did not need to give him any money and we left. They are so used to Americans tipping extravagantly it makes it a bit awkward for those of us who don’t, although I do usually round up and tip more when service goes beyond what is normally expected.
So why would she lie to me?
I have no idea, but an Italian living in Italy that speaks about 20% tipping is either lying or got hit in the head. Imagine adding 20% to the bill for no reason!
the service charge is not built into the check?
Again : waiters (I hope some waiters) say that "service is not included" because they know you are an American and that you are used to tip. Reply that you don't care or ignore them. Waiters' salary is none of your business. You have to pay what's written on the check, not a cent more.
Look, let's put it this way: if they asked tips this way to Italian customers, they'd get more F. words & punches than notes. And they know it. Ok?
Now, if you need to show off, if you want to encourage a double standard you are free tip 20%. It's ridiculous, but do as you prefer. You are harming your fellow countrymen that will visit Italy in the future, not me. I'll keep on paying 20% less and nobody will bat an eyelid.
I told him I paid the coperto
There is no connection between the cover charge and a tip, those money do not go to waiters. Even if they add a % fee to the bill calling it "service", it doesn't go to waiters. Waiters only get their monthly salary and the coins you leave on the table.
Do it all the time in America
Dario is correct. I've never seen a place to add a tip on a credit card payment in Italy. You tip the server in cash, and usually only the amount you would round up for the bill.
Day tripper, I'm not sure what you do all the time in America, but it may not be acceptable elsewhere. When in Rome....
When I hit add reply it posted Day Tripper. I am not Day Tripper. When I post it is usually on my laptop or iPad. This is on my phone???? Strange real strange
I've never seen a place to add a tip on a credit card payment in Italy
Well, actually there is one that I know of. It's the restaurant at the Airport Hilton at Rome Fiumicino. Their credit card slip does have an extra line for the gratuity. It's the only place where I've seen it in Italy, and since I stay there every time I fly out of Rome early in the morning, I checked again this past summer, and it was still there. Maybe because nearly all patrons there are Americans (probably also there the night before their flight home).
Interestingly though, this year my wife proceeded to leave some tip on the credit card slip (less than the typical 15%+ as in the US however), but the waiter promptly stopped her, and told her that if she wanted to leave a tip to leave it in cash, because if she left it in the credit card slip, the tip would actually go to Hilton, not to the waiter. So she deleted the credit card slip entry, and left something in cash instead.
One said that it was against the law in Italy to charge more to a
credit card than the total of the bill
I wonder how this compares the EU Final Price Policy.
BTW, in the US, according to the Wage and Hour Law, tipped employees must be paid at least the minimum wage. If their tipped employee wages (lower than min. wage) plus tips do not add up to the minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the differance. So, sometimes the tip you leave might be going to the restaurant, not the employee, because it just decreases what the employer has to contribute for the employee to get the minimum wage.
Also, when a restaurant adds a service charge for larger groups, the restaurant is under no legal requirement to give all or part of it to the tipped employees. They can keep the entire service charge, but the employee must still make minimum wage.
I've never seen a place to add a tip on a credit card payment in Italy
In over 160 days in Europe since 2000, I've never used a credit card to pay for a meal at a restaurant - never; I always pay in cash. The waiter gives me a "receipt", that shows the total bill, and I give him, in cash, the amount, rounded up for the tip. He gives the restaurant the amount from the bill, in cash, and keeps the extra as his tip.
Just came back from 2 weeks in Italy. Coperto (cover) charges have become more commonplace even in restaurants that never used to charge them. No need to leave a more substantial tip other than a euro or two. Listen to the above persons who are giving you good advice and don't ruin it for the rest of us. Anytime I left even 50 cent tip at a bar, the persons working were grateful.
Funny story...there is a fixed price with taxi drivers taking one to the airport. On our way there, our driver took a turn off the main road, and took some side alley dirt road for several hundred meters. My wife and I thought "this is it!" He then proceeds to make a quick move back onto the main road, bypassing the traffic altogether. 2 euro tip was greatly appreciated by him, and us!
Depending on the situation, I will occasionally leave a euro or two on the table, especially if it is just a lunchtime sandwich & beer. For more forml dining it often depends on the restaurant and staff. I leave cash on the table. But that's just me.
In Rome, between Trevi Fountain and Spanish Steps (very crowded with tourists) we stopped to rest, have a drink and a pizza and the waiter, as we paid our bill, kept asking for ‘something for me’. NO. And I left but I did see a couple at another table dig in her purse to give him something. Quite aggressive toward tourists.
If you start tipping you’re setting a bad example and making it more uncomfortable for other tourists.
ps, in NewYork a couple of years ago in October, I noted that the restaurant had added a 18% service charge but also had a line for tips. When I asked the waiter, he said they did it because tourists didn’t tip. Welcome to NY.
What Dario said is correct: tipping is not usual in Italy.
I work in tourism and I know that for the most of Americans tourists (not only US, even other countries) is normal leave a tip, so the most do it. Often even overtipping. When a tourist give me a tip I remember that is not mandatory in Italy: if is say that he knows it and want to leave it anyway I say thanks, because of course an extra money is always appreciated. But always remember that the person who is working has just been paid for is job (the waiter, the guide, the tour leader, te taxi driver...).
Another point of view: when you are tipping somebody you are tipping only the last person of the working process. But your experience is good not only thanks to his job: there are several more people who are doing an hidden work and are not tipped. Maybe you are tipping the guide with a lot of money and nothing is given to the travel agent who have worked months to create the perfect tour and arrange everything smoothly. And often you have asked a discount! Because purchase a tour for 200€ and leave 40€ of tip is OK, but purchase it at 240€ is to much!
About illegal of tipping on the credit card is true. A restaurant (or any shop) has to check every day that the cash received (billets, coins, but even credit card payments) matches the total amount of the billings. If the balance is not correct is a problem. If the balance is positive (more cash than bills) is easy: you remove the extra cash and keep it to refill the cash in days when is lower (little mistakes sometimes happen). Or to cover little extra expenses. Not legal, but it happens. I don't know how if is normal use the "extra cash" for tip the workers.
I was just in Italy, in the north (including Firenze). In exactly 1 restaurant, in Siena, there was a comment that "service is not included", which sounded like a scam, but we did leave about 10%. The rest, about 30 places, had no request for tips.
As many have pointed out, if tourists tip, this will create an expectation in the future of tips, and will increase pressure for tipping. Don't tip, folks.
They never ask for tips explicitly in the US. But they still expect them.
Does anyone know if the wait-staff gets anything at all from a fully paid check with no extra tip?
I know US waiters get minimum wage but actually make a huge amount on tips - especially weekends, places with a lot of drinking, and attractive female waitresses. A lot!
But I don’t know if Italian waiters are paid decently or get any cut of the pie.
And also to keep in mind that some Europeans have a salary of $1000 a month and that’s kinda middle class. So they don’t need $300 a night to pay their way through a US university.
Of course I want to be reasonable and kind. But I don’t need to throw money at them unnecessarily.
The same hotel we stayed exactly 1year ago is now double. Our travel money is disappearing faster than fresciarossa passes a wheat field.
I’ve been in Italy about 10 days, first Rome and now in Florence. I rarely tip, especially since I’m charging almost everything. Twice in Rome, I had a waitperson “ask” for a tip. The first guy asked if I wanted to include the tip on my card (No). Another gave me the bill with “tip” and a line for the amount handwritten on it. I just circled the original amount. He didn’t question me on it, but I have to think many people would have added a tip.
Thank you Dario and Ricky.
I'm not sure how to get t info through in his case.
Don't tip in Italy. Period. It is not the USA. The economy is different. The rules are different.
Actually tipping is not a good practice, period, even in the US.
Read below.
I hope you read the article above, so that you understand the problematic implications of tipping.
And now some facts about Italy's restaurants.
Coperto (Cover charge), sometimes Pane e Coperto (Bread and Cover Charge)
It relates to the cost not only of the bread basket (sometimes made in the restaurant) but also of the table equipment (tablecloth, cutlery and napkins). The practice has a well-defined historical origin. It was in fact introduced during the Middle Ages in medieval inns and charged to patrons who stopped in the premises to eat their own food (the equivalent of the brown bags) to find shelter from the cold, hence the (rental) cost of the "covered" place and the borrowed silverware.
There is really no justification for this charge nowadays, but the practice has remained and it is basically an extra revenue stream for the restaurant. It has been banned by some regional governments (like Lazio, where Rome is located).
If the menu says"Pane e Coperto €3", it means that 3 euro per person sitting at the table will be added to the bill. Often the menu may say "pane e coperto included", meaning that you won't see that extra charge in the bill (basically it's already built in the price of the menu dishes).
Servizio (Service Charge)
With this item, which is around 15-20% of the total bill, it was customary to pay the waiters when there were no employment contracts yet. Also in this case, it is an additional cost that we still find on the restaurant check today, despite the fact that the employees of a restaurant must be employed with a valid employment contract in compliance with Italian labor laws. As explained by others above, the proceeds of this amounts go to the restaurant owner, not to the waiter. The restaurant staff only gets the wages established by the employment contracts, which in Italy are negotiated nationally with the labor unions for the specific category of work and vary by level (of experience and job function). The current national minimum (monthly) contract salary rates for each level of restaurant/hotel workers are in the tables illustrated here
Like for Pane a Coperto, if a restaurant menu specifies that the "Service is included" it means that you won't see a separate charge for service (10%-20%) in the restaurant bill, because the dish price is inclusive of everything. If the menu specifies "Service is not included" it means that the restaurant is warning you that the 10%-20% service charge will be added separately in the bill, because it is not included in the dish price. Restaurants sometimes state "service not included" in the menu to let you know before hand about that extra service charge, so that there are no disputes when you receive the bill, which it happens in restaurants where there are patrons from countries (like the US) where this practice is not present.
this seems to result in people mistakenly assume that "service" means the same thing as "gratuity"
There is one thing about service in Italy - at times it is not as attentive as in the USA. Rather than a service "encounter" being initiated by the wait staff, the patron has to initiate. You may be sitting there, for some time, waiting for the wait staff. We finally figured out that we, the patrons, had to initiate the process. The "tip economy" approach leads to the wait staff being VERY attentive to the patrons in the USA. So, in Italy, you initiate.
Another issue in Italy is that there seems little pressure to "turn" the table. If you are there, the staff assume that you will decide when to leave, and there is little of the USA "so, can I interest you in a desert", which often precipitates the decision to finish and open the table.
These are both positive and negative.
I'm curious regarding Coperto and Servizio. Are there instances where these amounts can be excessive? Are the amounts listed in the menu as in Servizio will be 20% of menu item, or can the restaurant charge whatever they want and the customer will just need to wait for the bill to find out?
On the isle of Capri - they turn tables - there might still be food on your plate and they take it away and hand you the check.
In the bills I am seeing in Italy, I don't see any service charge itemized. There is a cover charge, food, drinks, etc. So nothing is listed - but these are often hand written bills, or simple lists from a machine. They are not those computerized bills that say how much VAT or internal charges are hidden in the fees. So thats why its confusing.
Exactly how much do these waiters/waitresses get without tips for working 5 hours or whatever? Is it $3/hr or $15/hr?
I have no doubt that if you give huge tips, they will be very happy in the same way I would be happy to find a $100 bill on the ground. That doesn't mean that I should expect $100 bills or that I deserve it.
And when did this all change? It seems that service was always included in past years - maybe that was France?
Rather than a service "encounter" being initiated by the wait staff,
the patron has to initiate. You may be sitting there, for some time,
waiting for the wait staff. We finally figured out that we, the
patrons, had to initiate the process.
This is also because of the different concept of what is considered "good service" in different cultures.
In Italy if the waiter comes to your table "unsolicited" it is considered VERY BAD SERVICE, a sort of rushing you out to increase the table turnover. That is actually the practice in the US. You may think it's good service, but the waiter's "encounter initiation" in the US has also the purpose to make sure you keep ordering while at the table, otherwise please get the hell out because I need new customers here to make more money for the restaurant and for me.
I still remember many years ago, when my boss at the time, took our entire city sports department (I worked for the City of Florence then) to a famous restaurant (I don't remember the occasion). It was past 10pm and the owner/waiter came to our table to take the order before we called him. My boss (a huge former water polo player for the Italian national team) got up and started an argument with the owner. I thought he was going to punch him, and I felt very bad because the owner was a friend of mine that did the military service with me a few years earlier (he was the cook in the base, and of course the entire battalion gained at least 30 lbs during that time in the service). The owner (my friend) had to profusely apologize saying that he wasn't trying to rush us, he did so because the kitchen was closing at 10:30pm and he wanted to make sure we ordered before.
As you correctly said, the practice of rushing you out does not apply to restaurants in Italy (although some tourist traps, like in Capri, might) and actually even the waiter has no incentive to turn over tables, because s/he getting paid the same whether s/he waits on two parties per table per night or on just one.
The same applies if you want the check to be brought to the table. A waiter would not do that unless specifically requested, because an unsolicited check brought to the table will certainly start a fight.
So if you want fast service in Italy, you'd better signal the waiter that you want him/her at the table, because otherwise they will not come.
I'm curious regarding Coperto and Servizio. Are there instances where
these amounts can be excessive? Are the amounts listed in the menu as
in Servizio will be 20% of menu item, or can the restaurant charge
whatever they want and the customer will just need to wait for the
bill to find out?
There are no laws imposing the specific amounts to charge on restaurants.
The customary coperto (where applicable, since some restaurants don't have it) is generally 1.50 to 3.00 euro per person. Some fancier restaurants may charge maybe 3.50, I don't know, but whatever amount is charged must be written in the menu, so you don't have to wait for the bill to find out.
Same rule applies to service charge. Most restaurants charge 10% to 12% of the total bill, some more expensive ones maybe more. Whatever the percentage, it has to be stated in the menu, therefore you will know before you order.
The service charge is not itemized. It's one line equal to the percent of the total bill. Therefore it's equivalent to the tax line.
If for example the subtotal bill before service charge is 100 euro, and the service charge is 12%, there will be a line at the bottom of the bill that says SERVIZIO 12% Eur. 12,00
So the grand total will be euro 112.00
The value added tax is 10% for restaurant service. This amount is included in the price, therefore you won't see an extra 10% added in the bill, because the price charged is inclusive of the VAT (IVA in Italian). However you might see the following in the bill.
Total Eur. 100
di cui IVA Euro 9.91
Which means total is euro 100, of which euro 9.91 is VAT (at 10%)
, I don't know, but whatever amount is charged must be written in the menu, so you don't have to wait for the bill to find out.
This is true for everything on the bill, if it isn't written on the menu (that must be posted outside) you don't have to pay it.
Middle ages aside, it's not easy to give all tables all the bread they want for as long as they want... and break-even without a cover charge; especially when a small restaurant with few tables caters to Italians who eat tons of bread and occupy a table for the all night.
I was thought not to get close to any table if customers were still reading the menus. I was told It was "rude service" and I think it's still true in Italy like in the US.
The past month in Italy, and still for 2 more weeks, we’ve used a credit card to pay when possible, then we leave cash (or just coins in many cases) as a tip. A Euro or two is considered pretty generous, but if there’s exceptional service, give what feels right.
One case where NO tip was left was at a restaurant in Rome. The waiter flat-out told us to just pay our tip in cash, and leave it on the table, before we’d even finished our meal. That was presumptuous- in the US, in Italy, or anywhere. Our private guide the next day was outraged to hear that a waiter would automatically expect a tip (maybe just from Americans?), and to give instructions at that.
Oh, at another restaurant in Rome, we left a modest tip, and the waiter immediately went over and put it in the “tip jar” for the restaurant. I assume they spread that amongst the entire staff. Good to think the dishwashers get something for their efforts at a good place, as well as the chefs and serving staff.
Thanks Roberto and Dario for the additional information on coperto and sevizioi.
Another question. When traveling to Portugal, it is common for bread or olives, to be brought out while reading the menu. There's an additional cost associated with this and if not wanted, then it's just waived away. Is there something similar in Italy? If bread is brought to the table, is this part of the coperto or an item with an additional cost written somewhere on the menu?
Bread in the basket is usually covered by the coperto, that is why it is often called "Pane e Coperto".
I don't recall ever seeing an additional charge for bread only.
Thanks Roberto
After I tipped the waiter 5 on a bill of 50 tonight in Puglia, I talked to the manager and asked about the tipping situation. He confirmed that there is no service built in to the bill - and indeed I saw no such break down on the computerized bill. He confirmed that people usually leave cash tips. I asked how much...10%...20% ... and he said "whatever". So this is in line with what my Italian friend and other waiters at other restaurants have said.
Our waiter thanked me a total of 4 separate times for the tip of 5 eu. I think its worth it to me to see such gratitude for a measly tip - compared to the US where they would expect 10-15 and probably not even thank you. I just feel better to be a good guest - if the service is decent and no funny business with the billing. There were a few times, that I just didn't leave a tip, but normally a little tip gets big appreciation.
Regarding the cover charge, the way I look at it, is that if order swordfish in the US, I might pay 25, but I am only paying 16 (or 9 in Naples), so the cover charge is kinda already built-in to the US bill, and every thing you order in the US is more expensive. So the Italian way is actually cheaper for the customer.
In the past month in Italy, I have paid from 1.50 to 4 per person for cover charge ... with there being absolutely no connection to what you pay and what service and bread you get. Its just a ploy to make money for sure, but if the meals are reasonable it works out fine.
I kinda consider the drinking water another cover charge. You can't just choke on your food. And when you order water, tap water, non-bottled water... it doesn't seem to work out well many times.
The practice of bottled water instead of tap water is something that gets to me. Not the cost, but just all of those plastic bottles being used for what purpose? I'd be happy to pay for tap water instead if that was an acceptable option. I guess America has the excessive tipping and Europe had the bottled water thing.
Italians rarely drink tap water, even at home, therefore it would be unusual for a restaurant to even consider it. It’s just not part of the local practice, besides the fact that bottled water is also a bit of extra revenue for the restaurant. Having a busboy walking around the tables with a carafe of water filling your glass might be an option in the US where busboys are paid the minimum and are basically paid by tips, but in Italy it wouldn’t be feasible with the minimum salary required by the employment contracts. Proposing to Italian restaurants to forgo the extra revenue (bottled water with big markup) and having instead extra cost with no revenue (extra staffing cost with no water charge) would not be a winning proposition. At least in Italy they don’t charge $25-30 for a wine corking fee, so why complain?
Acqua del Rubinetto - the trip we’re still on currently, we’ve asked for it, and sometimes get it. Several times, we’ve been told that tap water anywhere in Tuscany is unfit for drinking. Funny, at our hotels and rented apartments, it’s been great. All the ice cubes in the Aperol Spritzes that so many people are having throughout Italy - did they get poured into the ice maker from bottles of San Pelligrino? Don’t think so.
As mentioned earlier, the excess bottles sure seem to be unnecessary and wasteful, when a better approach can be used.
I had a server in a restaurant in Italy tell me that tap water was not safe to drink because it had to go through all the ancient pipes to get to the tap. But the water going through the ancient system to reach the outdoor fountains is OK?
I drink tap water everywhere I go (with the exception of LA and some other California communities because it tastes so bad) but everywhere in Europe I have found tap water to be good or better. And like others have said, the plastic bottles are a a huge concern.
As I said, most Italians don’t drink tap water at home, because in many cities it has a funny taste (I guess due to the water treatment). If they don’t buy it at the grocery store (where it’s very cheap, even less than €.25 for a 2 liter bottle), they fill their own bottles at natural springs (when suitable) or at special dispensing outlets, installed by municipal water districts everywhere. These dispensing outlets dispense water that is treated with special methods that make water better than the tap water coming through the lead pipes to people’s homes. In this case, people reuse their bottles, therefore there is less environmental impact. The water is provided by water districts for free, therefore it’s even cheaper than the store.
Since Italians have this cultural practice of preferring to drink water other than the tap water coming in the home through the pipes, restaurants do not serve tap water, although some have started to serve specially treated water from the above mentioned dispensers using reusable bottles (for environmental reasons)
Some of you may not conceive or even object to the practice of not drinking tap water, for whatever reason (plastic waste or whatever) but it is what it is. Italians also can’t conceive the American cultural practice of not using a bidet after using the restroom, but also in that case, it is what it is. Every country has its own cultural idiosyncrasies.
Regarding the restaurants in Italy, there is also the fact that bottled water is extra revenue for them. Bottled water is, as I said, very cheap in Italy (€0.15/lt), but since it’s sold at at least €2 a bottle in a restaurant, that is a nice mark up. That is why if you ask a restaurant for tap water, some may find the excuse that is not safe for drinking, which is a lie.
But I don’t understand all the fuss here. Restaurants in the US apply at least a 500% mark up on wine while they charge at least $25 for corkage fee. In Italy restaurants only double or at most triple the price of wine, while the corkage fee (diritto di tappo) ranges from €5 to €10 max. Why, considering the extortionate practices of American restaurants, there is such a huge problem with paying €2 or 3 for a bottle of mineral water? I know it’s not the concern with plastic waste, since in the US we generate twice the amount of plastic waste per person as Italy (105kg per person in the US vs 56kg per person in Italy, according to the World Bank). Just get with the program and order bottled water. You’ll still save money over eating out in the US. You can drink all the tap water you wish when you return home or even when you are in the hotel in Italy (You can use the hotel bathroom sink tap or even the bidet, if you like).
Come to think of it, when you buy a cappuccino in the morning, they give you a small cup of water at the swankier places. I paid 1.50 for a cap delivered to the table in a cute friendly coffee shop this morning in Polignano a Mare, and it came with a plastic cup of water.
So either they served me the undrinkable water or it is drinkable. But of course you can’t necessarily taste pollutants and microbes.
In Austria, Switzerland, and Finland they all claim to have the best natural drinking water and no need for bottled water. Although that mountain spring water may pass through an aging decaying pipe system with some colonies of microorganisms
But the water going through the ancient system to reach the outdoor fountains is OK?
In condos, like mine, the last mile is under our responsibility not the City's. Since my fellow residents have been postponing the modernisation costs of that last mile for ages, I decided to install an expensive additional filter in my apartment. Restaurants are often located in the older buildings of city centers with the same "last mile" problem and Restaurant owners follow a simple rule: any cost that can be postponed must be postponed as long as possible.
The water coming out from public fountains is totally safe, because the all system is under the responsibility of public bodies. While condos can ask the NHS' local branch to routinely analyze the water from the taps, cities must do it.
just all of those plastic bottles
I'd never dream of drinking still water at a restaurant, I want it sparkling when I go out for dinner. But even stranger would be a restaurant that puts plastic instead of glass bottles on the table.
I can confirm about credit cards. I tried to tip by "rounding up" like I do in Germany and Austria at a wine bar at the market at the Milan train station. The staff urged me not to, as it would go to the management of the market, not to their shop or to any of them.
In discussions there and elsewhere in the north, they are delighted to get cash tips, but it is absolutely optional. Servers are paid a living wage, though I have no idea what that amounts to in somewhere like Milan or Venice.
Anywhere that has adopted the cafe culture from Vienna, which seems to be a lot of the northern cities that at one time were owned by the Hapsburgs, will provide a small glass of water on the side with a coffee. This started in Vienna as a way to show off the city's excellent tap water. All the cities I visited had excellent tap water and public fountains that could be used to fill up water bottles.
In Siena, the Campo has a fountain, the Fountain of Joy. The fountain is celebrated as it provided free, clean, drinkable water for normal people.
We see those kinds of fountains all over Italy. Its unclear if the water is tested. In LA, there are reservoirs with water for drinking water, but dogs can urinate in it, animals might die in the water, who knows what kind of moss or algae or germs are growing, or what kind of pollutants are in the water. Some years ago, there was a thing called acid rain where even rain water was so polluted, it was dissolving stone statues.
In many places you can buy a liter or 1.5 L of water for 15-30 cents. So I just buy the water.
I did try one new trick this trip. I went to an camping/outdoor supply store and bought a 2 L soft bottle to hold water for drinking, instead of carrying around those big bottles - but sadly it seemed to leak, so I am carrying the big bottles.
Its unclear if the water is tested
It isn't unclear:*unless there is a "Non potabile" sign the water from public fountains is tested and drinkable. I wrote it a few hours ago.
Just like I wrote that there are no mandatory tips in Italy, that your friend is wrong and that waiters's salary is not customers' business. You won't have an hearth attack if you accept that different systems from yours are neither "wrong" nor "worse", but just differen.
Feel free to think I am wrong, I often am. But not to write that something absolutely clear is "unclear".
ps In continental Italy all drinkable water comes from underground springs and only from underground springs. The only dog that can piss in it is Satan's puppy.
So you are saying that every city park or odd corner water spigot is tested regularly? Is that tested for microbes and bio-hazards, contaminants, pollution, residues of pesticides, antibiotics, drugs, and hormones .... or all of the above? I have a home water quality tester and its a simple device that checks for one thing. The way I look at it, is it worth the risk of getting a water born illness to save 25 cents buying some bottled water.
I am saying that any
odd corner water spigot
without a "Non potabile" sign near it
is tested regularly
and it's been drinkable since the Romans' Era. The Joke about spring water being the only natural resource in Italy has some truth.
Incidentally, it works the same way all over EU Europe, it's nothing special.
@Dario
I remember I've had a discussion about this topic in the US. Somebody was trying to tell me that water from public fountains in Europe is not drinkable although the sign saying ok to drink. But actually it felt the other way arround becasue I was shocked (every time) how much the water tasted like chlorine in the areas I've visited in the US. Only after a while I was getting used to it.
Different countries with different opinions I would say :-)
Drinking dodgy water is like being exposed to COVID … not everyone gets sick but some might - especially the old and weak.
Look in any public fountain with standing water usually has algae. Maybe it won’t make you sick but in the same way eating food off the floor won’t make you sick most of the time too.
"Look in any public fountain with standing water usually has algae"
I hope you did not think that anybody will drink this water? Only the water running fresh from the faucet will be drunken. And as mentioned there must be always a sign confirming that this is drinking water.
There must always be a sign that it is NOT drinking water.
"Some years ago, there was a thing called acid rain..." - No need to panic, it's still around. A pity it can't erode the tipping culture.
@rachele
Agree. Could be mentioned no drinking water as well :-)
I'd never dream of drinking still water at a restaurant, I want it
sparkling when I go out for dinner. But even stranger would be a
restaurant that puts plastic instead of glass bottles on the table.
Count us in for sparkling too, Dario. And the water we drank from public fountains - especially in Rome - was not only safe but very cold and good! We only bought one plastic bottle and just kept refilling it to keep waste to a minimum.
Basta! Basta!
OK, turning in now about midnight, following a nice dinner in Bologna, followed by incredibly fabulous gelato/sorbetto.
Dinner tonight in Bologna: total bill was €80, including €25 bottle of wine. We paid by VISA card, and left a €2 tip. Generous, cheap, or unnecessary - that what we did.
Regarding water for us two, we were asked if we wanted still or frizzante water. I asked, “Del rubinetto?” and we were promptly brought a pitcher of tap water - excellent water. It wasn’t fizzy, but oh, well, it needed no bottle, and there was no charge. The €3 copperto cover charge per person covered the bread, and I assume, also our pitcher of water, plus its refill. We also bought a very good bottle of 100% Sangiovese local wine, which was €25, although they had much pricier bottles, too.
One of the flavors of gelato was dark chocolate, which they just call cioccolatto. I was told that some people ask them for milk chocolate, but dark is all they carry. Sounds right to me!
We had lunch in Bari (Puglia) and bill was 52, handed a 5 to waiter. He did a good job.
Yeah it’s his job to do a good job. That is the difference between there and here. He gets compensated by his employer to do a good job. While here…
What exactly is his salary? I am pretty sure its a small fraction of my salary. I spoke to the manager of a nice hotel in an Austrian resort town, and he told me made about $1100 - and he was not a waiter. The college educated young lady managing our apartment in Pulia said something about a flight to the US being about 2 months salary, and then saying it was $500. I am not sure if I heard correctly she was making $250 a month. Even someone on welfare in the US probably makes more than that in a week.
This tip is a fraction of what an American server would expect. So it does not hurt me to spread some good cheer. Its kind of charming how a few bucks makes their faces light up. A little generosity reflects well on us too. (Recently there are articles about how badly behaved American tourists in Italy).
I have had a couple of meals where I left no tip because I was not all that happy too.
With the many thousands of dollars a trip costs, its not a big deal. And I go home with good memories. And I would hate to think "Yeah I enjoyed a great meal, and then I stiffed the waiter and saved 3 eu". I would rather remember I had a good time, and they were happy too, and it was good all the way around. Thats what I want to remember for the rest of my life.
I am neither a server nor on welfare so I don't know the exact numbers. That is not hearsay, that is conjecture. I am pretty confidant that an attractive waitress at a bar on a Saturday night is making $50/hr for a 6 hour shift, ergo $300 - which might be more than the server in Italy makes in a month.
Regarding what my Italian friend said, that is called direct testimony, not hearsay. The several waiters and managers I talked to also provided direct testimony, although their motives may be questioned since they have a potential direct financial advantage to giving their answers.
I know a few Italians where I am now, and will ask them in the morning too.
I am reading through all of this tonight and just want to give a shout out “thank you” to Roberto & Dario. I always appreciate that you willingly share to help us understand better, not just an answer, but also the cultural reasons behind it.
My husband & I love eating at restaurants in Italy because we can enjoy the meal without being hounded by the US wait staff asking us “how is your meal?”, etc.
@Cyn:
I envy you.
We are also just turning in after a nice dinner at a Greek restaurant in Palo Alto (California). My brother in law and I both ordered Moussaka for $39 each, my wife ordered a dish of arnaki (lamb chops) for $59, which she shared with her sister. We also shared an appetizer ($10) and a dessert ($14). Wine bottles ranged from a minimum of $50 all the way to $2,500 per bottle, so we passed. We ordered two 1/2 liter bottles of sparkling water ($9 each) instead, and then we relied on tap water. Sales tax was about 10% (added to the bill). The restaurant also added a 5% living wage surcharge, which apparently is charged because they pay waiters more than the minimum wage ($15 in California). We weren’t charged the automatic 20% gratuity because our party was less than 6 people, but we added a tip of maybe 16-17%. So we spent over $250 in 4, with no alcohol, but maybe I should be glad that tap water was free.
The food was good, if after Bologna you pass by California you can try it. No coperto charge either.
We stayed a few days in Bologna too, and went to a restaurant recommended by a local as the best .. the place he takes his mother, it was called Trattoria Leonida. I was say it was good not great. That area has a number of restaurants, and a nice little square. I forgot what we paid but I think it was about 18 for salmon and 16 for pasta.
I'll throw one other bit of info to you. The Italian young lady that has been helping us in Puglia mentioned that its her dream and the dream of most Italians to come live in the USA. They know we make tons more money than they do too. I would rather then not see us as penny pinching tightwads who can't give 5 eu tip. We are fortunate we live where we live - and its only through fate that we have this money, and they do not.
The minimum national contract salary for a waiter ranges from €1300 a month to almost twice that depending on the lever of experience, qualifications, seniority. Those are minimums for each level.
Salaries in America are higher in practically every profession, however we must consider that the cost of living in Italy is lower, and many expenses that we incur in America are heavily subsidized by the Italian government or are even free. Food, as you noticed, costs half what it costs us in America. Housing costs are often much lower too. Renting a 2 bedroom apartment in Florence costs from €700 to €1200 a month. where my mother lives in a small town in Tuscany, the same apartment will cost less than €450 a month. In addition, Italians don’t pay what we pay in healthcare costs or tuition costs (both university and child care). Elderly care is heavily subsidized too and a nursing facility or assisted living facility costs almost nothing compared to the US (about €1700-€2000 a month in Tuscany for an Alzheimer’s patient 100% dependent for ADLs, who does not qualify for government help). Therefore comparing salaries between countries without considering everything else is misleading. Italians are often mesmerized by our high salaries, but when I tell them how much we need to shell out for the most basic living costs, their excitement fades quickly.
Well I stand corrected - at least to some extent. I talked to two trusted locals in Puglia and they say they don't give any tips at all - maybe 2 eu if they are very happy. However, my other friend who lives in Venice and seems to go out a lot said 1/5 (20%). And every waiter and manager I have spoken with have said that service is not included.
$1300/month for a 40 hour week about $8/hour which is not too bad when you can rent an apartment for 600 eu or less.
I guess I am going to continue to tip but much lower.
I can't believe this thread has gone on this long, Please don't tip. Don't take your country's norms to Italy just because you want to. Sure Italians always say moving to New York, for example, is a dream. But you have to realize they're thinking like tourists. Like others say, as soon as you tell them how much things cost in the US, they blanch, Plus complaining about Italy is right up there with soccer as the national sport. Don't act like the big shot Amurrican--do what we do in Italy. Walk up to where the cash register is, ask for the bill, and pay it. No tip is expected. Complement them on the meal, say you'll be back, Leave it at that,
Tipping in Italy is only done by ignorant tourists, really. The system is different. The bills do not have service covered because SERVICE IS COVERED BY THE SALARY. Of course wait staff want to convince you otherwise. That way, dumb tourists will give them money FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER.
I don't see why this is so difficult. IT'S A DIFFERENT SYSTEM. This is why we travel - to have experiences with different ways of living and working. NOT TO MAKE ITALY INTO THE USA.
"I can't believe this thread has gone on this long..." - I'm quite sure I'm not the only one looking forward to the OP's informative responses.
Oh boy.
I'm trying to understand how the OP- (whose bio indicates a fairly well traveled poster- 10 trips to Europe) doesn't know that tipping anywhere in Europe is not the norm, not expected and not necessary.
Puzzling as to why OP would insist on forcing his culture while in a foreign country.
Some people just do what they want to do despite cultural norms, good advice and good behaviour. It’s just how it is.
Nothing left to see here.
Let’s move on.
Lets review who is saying what :
The actual waiters, say they are not getting any service payment and indicate they would like tips - but they have a financial interest in the matter. They are the ones who would know better than anyone how much they make and what is standard procedure.
Various American tourists say not to tip. However, they do have a financial interest since tips are coming out of their pockets. And they are outsiders. The insulting comments about those who disagree do not strengthen their argument, and indeed the anti-social comments toward fellow travelers more generous than them, suggest that their resistance to tipping might be indicative of the same kind of negative feelings toward the waiters, rather than inside knowledge on how Italians behave and think.
Restaurant managers - who do not benefit financially by tips, but they might be looking out for the interests of their employees. They also say the waiters do not get any service payment.
RS himself recommended small tips.
One Italian friend living in northern Italy her entire life (including now) says to tip 20%, some more recent contacts in southern Italy say nothing or 1-2 eu for good service - which is pretty close to what RS originally said too.
So I would say the most likely scenario is that the waiters are paid some sort of minimal living wage, but small tips are appreciated and somewhat expected.
I am going to ask other local Italians to get a better data sample - people not in the restaurant business. I will update later.
Americans obsess about tipping.
Others, not so much.
@ Aussie
Hear, Hear.
"that tipping anywhere in Europe is not the norm, not expected and not necessary."
In Germany it is mostly expected and many people doing it more or less - depending on how generous they are.
I do 10% but of course only when I was happy with the service.
Tipping in Germany is no must but a thanks to the waiter.
I'm a local, and I live in Venice.
As Roberto and other people said, tipping is not expected in any Italian resturant or trattoria, it means that if you don't leave any tip, nobody gets offended or think that the customer is unsatisfied with the service, it's absolutely normal not to tip.
In some cases, expecially when the service or the food was exceptionally good, Italians (but not always and it depends from person to person) leave from 3 to 5 euro or even more on the table, but it is rather an "informal" way to tip, there is no a specific percentage on the total price of your meal and It is not done "by default"
Said that, If you want to leave the usual 20% nobody will forbid you to tip: of course, extra money is always well accepted.
The problem is that many restaurants , expecially in big touristic sites, have learnt that tipping is a common custom in US so they expect to receive a tip only from Americans.
At the end, the choice is yours: you can stick to the American tipping culture or pay only the price of your meal like the rest of the Italians usually does; I'm not saying that one choice is better than the other one, since the decision on how to spend your money is yours.
My good friend lives in Venice, is a native Italian, and seems to go out a lot and she says she gives 10 eu on a 50 eu bill.
Two people in Puglia who rented us an apartment said they give nothing, or 1-2 Eu.
But today I talked with the landlord at our new apartment and this guy seems to be pretty sophisticated, He says he gives about 10% tip. He said service is not included - in agreement with all the waiters and restaurant managers we have spoken to.
I have three conclusions tentatively :
Conclusion 1 : Italian servers have a better relative base pay than the rock bottom pay servers get in the US, so a tip is not as critical to them. However they appreciate even small tips.
Conclusion 2 : You don't have to tip but more sophisticated and educated Italians seem to indeed give decent tips of 10-20%.
Conclusion 3 : The non-Italians speaking with such firm authority about not tipping at all, and spicing up their comments with subtle insults toward those of us who wish to be good guests and generous to our hosts, are not necessarily correct, and their style of communication makes it harder to have an honest discussion.
I wil ask other native Italians to continue my scientific research on this topic.
I am coming to learn that people just love to find anything to argue about. First of all there is a difference between talking about random strangers, and addressing someone here who has made a post. Second, by saying one group is better in some way, does not necessarily mean the other group is worse. Third, its a confusing situation, and you could contribute by adding useful information rather than personal attacks.
Conclusion 2 : You don't have to tip but more sophisticated and
educated Italians seem to indeed give decent tips of 10-20%.
Wow, I'm not sure what to think about this as our resident (current, former or occasional) Italians on this thread pretty much either don't tip, don't tip to those amounts, and/or say the practice is not expected or "usual". I'd never think of any of them as lacking in education or sophistication. All of them bring valued insights and assistance to these forums.
It's entirely possible for you to do you, as they say, without speaking unkindly of the Italian RS community members and other citizens of Italy?
you say
I am coming to learn that people just love to find anything to argue about.
I think that's true. Despite being told by locals and people who live elsewhere but regularly visit family in Italy you will continue with this until you get the answer you want.
Fine.
You keep using the term service, That's money to the owner not the staff.
You hang out with well-to-do people who like to splash the cash. You'll find that the vast majority don't. Believe it or not (you won't) and do as you wish but don't denigrate others because they don't say what you want them to say.
if people want to tip let them tip. People upset that "Americans" tip and then the waiters will want others to tip, just don't tip then.
Not all Americans tip and not all Europeans don't tip. Whatever floats your boat.
I doubt that your research can give you a univocal answer. It's like asking people if they prefer to go to the grocery store, located few miles away, by car or by bike.
Some Italians will say "well, I prefer to take the bike because it's more environmentally friendly and healthy", someone else will say "I usually take the car because I don't want to waste my time", I can tell you that in general most of Italians tend to use the car to get around except in some downtowns closed to traffic, but it doesn't mean that people who ride bike are more educated or sophisticated than the other ones. It's simply a choice.
At the same way, there are Italians that leave few euros as tip, Italians that drop more money (nobody calculates a specific percentage), and Italians that don't tip.
The majority doesn't tip.
So, at the end, are there any consequences if I tip? No
Are there any consequences if I don't tip? No
The only thing, as I said in the previous post, is that, since tipping is very common in US, some restaurants owners have learned to press Americans in order to get a tip. This is not done with Italian customers.
Such double standard is not honest at all and this is why many people suggest not to tip in Italy.
I'm glad this is still going. Nigel, watch out, it's creeping up on your titan of a post.
I have my own rule for tipping, dictated by rational superstition. The following foolproof, no-guilt strategy has paid out for me. Thirty-three is my lucky number. Long ago I decided to leave a tip of exactly thirty-three cents after each meal or drink, no matter the size of the bill or in which country I happen to be in. I receive the odd nasty look or snide remark, but so what? I'm hardly going to bump into the disgruntled waiter from Pienza scouring through the streets of my hometown, brandising a heavy pepper shaker in his hand. Nothing really bad has happened to me or the missus on our holidays, so I'll continue with my my carefully considered tipping logic.
To further underline my superstitions, and to make the holiday go as smoothly as possible, I treat inanimate objects with respect and give them pet names. In Italy, for example, my Smart Fortwo is Enzo, my backpack Piccolo Aiutante. Give it a try, it works for me.
Bravo Tobia! That's exactly how it is.
Most Italians NEVER or VERY RARELY tip at restaurants, except for the occasional few euros to round up the bill paid in cash at the table.
And most Italians don't even pay their bill at the table, but rather walk to the register on the way out and pay (cash or charge). Customers are even supposed to take the check with them on their way out and until a few years ago you could be fined if you didn't have the check with you for at least 100 meters away from the establishment. Italians don't leave the check on the table.
Just because practically all Italians I know do not normally tip at restaurants except for rounding up the bill (up to maybe 5€ or so to round up to the next multiple of 10), does not mean Italians who do not tip are uneducated or unsophisticated. My Italian friends and I never or very rarely tip at restaurants in Italy, although most of us hold advanced university degrees. I will only accept the charge of being an 'unsophisticated' troglodyte.
According to an Italian travel blog, roughly two-thirds of Italians don't tip at all. This of course means that one third do. How much? I would guess anything over about 10% would be an outlier although there will be people who do.
Third, its a confusing situation, and you could contribute by adding useful information rather than personal attacks.
No, it's not a confusing situation. The situation is very clear. Tipping is not a part of Italian restaurant culture for most if not many Italian customers. This has been said, without any confusion, in about 70 posts. This is about as clear as any issue that I have seen.
It's clear. It's not confusing.
But when ignorant tourists tip, they change the culture. This is bad. This is imposing idiotic USA culture on Italy. It's rude to do this. When we visit another country, we should be polite and not be ignorant ugly Americans. That's why my wife and I do not tip. We are polite, and try to not mess up the tourist environment.
I googled "how to tip in Italy", and this was the first response:
I asked an Italian friend, and she says they leave 20%
Holy Doodle, I don't even leave that at home.
I am coming to learn that people just love to find anything to argue about
That is my favorite thing about the internet!
Leaving a tip, even a rounded up small amount, to the owner of the restaurant when the owner is also the server (it happens often in small trattorias) is consider outright wrong in Italy.
I had a colleague in California (not Italian, but from India) who would do the exact same thing in the US when we went out to lunch during our business trips. If the server was the owner or a family member (it happens also in California, in small Asian or Mexican restaurants especially), he wouldn't leave a tip. I felt a bit embarrassed but that's what he did.
But how do you know if the server is also the owner?
But how do you know if the server is also the owner?
I don't know.
That's why I err on the side of caution and don't leave any tips to anybody.
They all look owners to me.
Lol perfect answer!
I have already been advised on this forum that I am an "Ugly American" and personally responsible for the deterioration of European society. Nothing left to lose - I would rather tip someone who shouldn't have received a tip, than fail to tip someone who was depending on tips to make ends meet.
It's ok to be ugly.
I get flipped off all the time in the US for being an aggressive driver (I guess I drive like an 'ugly' Italian).
But for some reason when I answer back and people hear my accent, they always tell me to "Go back to Germany".
I have no idea why Germany. I don't even look German. Maybe because they think I drive like I'm on the autobahn.
I googled "how to tip in Italy", and this was the first response: https://mominitaly.com/tipping-in-italy/
A tipping suggestion from a touristic guide who work probably only with Americans who are welcome to leave high tips.
In my region (Emilia-Romagna), but is the same in the most of the Northern Italy, is believed that a worker has to receive a fair salary, not begging for tips. If you receive your salary tips are not needed. Are appreciated? Yes: of course. But a worker shouldn't rely on tips or we are not talking of free workers but slaves (in fact tips were created in France and England to give something to survive to servants who weren't paid...).
You don't tip the owner of a restaurant: exactly why? Aren't you telling that a tip is because you have appreciated the service done? If the owner is serving you very well, why don't tip him?
On the other side, if you believe that tipping is only to give a salary to an underpaid worker, how often you tip for a clerk? Maybe the one at the post office, or the intern paid few hundred dollars a month in the another office.
Do you often tip the young guy who had fixed your car after a repair? Don't you think that probably his salary isn't higher than the one of a waiter? The 20% of the repair cost maybe... If not: why? Is there any difference than tipping a waiter?
The writer of the quoted article says "gas station attendant => No tip". Why? A guy who pass the whole night at the station with the risk of an armed robbery don't deserve a tip?
How often you tip your garbage man? Do you believe is more paid than a waiter? In Italy is probably much less paid!
99% of times, when you find an Italian says that in Italy we always tip, is an Italian involved in jobs where he expect to be tipped.
As said in other posts, I work as a touristic guide. 90% of Americans tip me. By other European I receive tips from the half, more or less. From Italians I have received a "real" tip once or two times in five years (I did tours with Italians almost every week): somebody left me the change (maybe they have to pay 24€ and give me 25€ without ask the euro back).
So, when an Italian says that they "always leave tips" and that in general 30% of Italians leave "always a tip", they are lying! But greatly lying!
90% of Americans tip me
So ricky - do you accept the tips? Or do you thank the Americans and say that tips are unnecessary in Italy?
I don't have much to add but I'm just trying to get this post to reach the number of replies of the record setting Nigel's post.
Anyhow, Ricky, who works as a tour guide in Italy, also confirmed that we Italians are cheapskates.
So if you Americans want to leave 20%-30% tips at restaurants in Italy, go right ahead. I'll keep on being a stingy cheapskate.
Just be aware that eventually Italian waiters, regardless of how good the service is, will come to expect that you (and you only) leave them a generous tip. And that is not good for the American cheapskates who travel to Italy.
Tip. An acronym of “to ensure promptness”. A bit like “posh”, Port Out, Starboard Home.
So now a couple of usages.
A tip, a gratuity for a person providing service.
A tip, a piece of advice.
So, using the second usage.
“Here’s a tip, stop posting, just stop!”
Have you noted how many cruises, especially the river cruises, are being advertised as "tips included" ie you aren't expected to tip waiters, bus boys, maitre d, room maids, fitness instructor etc? It has been priced into your tour price. Are you still going to tip 10% to 20 % of a $5,000 pp cruise?
On the other hand more people in the personal service industry in Canada such as hairdressers are expecting 10%+ tips. Service must be included in these personal services so are we implying that they are not charging enough or are we trying to help these people avoid paying taxes on their earnings?
The latter, babyboomer, the latter.
Sorry Aussie! We are still far from the 2500+ replies in Nigel’s post in the General Europe section. I’m not stopping.
Chiming in. We are just about finished with our 9 week stay in Italy and have never been pressured to tip. We have occasionally left a 1 or 2 euro coin or a bit more (personally to the staff member) if we noticed something extra that was done for us or just how much the individuals had to scurry to keep up with the service and still remain kind and understanding. Usually, we have just paid the bill and gone on our way after expressing our thanks for such good food and service.
Sometimes a twinge of American guilt has passed over me for not tipping, but then if Italians generally do not and I certainly haven’t seen them do it much, and we aren’t expected to do so, that twinge subsides quickly.
So ricky - do you accept the tips? Or do you thank the Americans and say that tips are unnecessary in Italy?
Usually before accepting it I remember that in Italy is not mandatory and necessary. If they say that they know and want to give it anyway I accept it and thanks the tourists. Sometimes I have even given back part of the tip because too high.
And I never asked the tip to anybody. Probably I'm too proud to don't be treated as a servant? Maybe....
There are even colleagues who ask part of the income to the shops if they bring tourists there.
If 90% of Americans tip, do the waiters notice the 10% who don't
In some touristic areas (Florence, Rome, Venice, Cinque Terre...) waiters expect tips from US visitors. I have several colleagues who prefer working with Americans than Italians due to tips.
Is because Italians are cheapskates? Not in my opinion. 90% of Italians do jobs where you never are tipped. If you are lucky you receive a panettone for Christmas. So they don't understand why they should pay more (and black market!) for a service. The background is a too much left-wing point of view that here a lot of people are not understanding: a worker should receive a fair salary. If not you are talking of servants or slaves, not workers.
Have you noted how many cruises, especially the river cruises, are being advertised as "tips included"
That is correct.
I have even worked for a TO from Australia who wrote on the program "you have to leave 5€ per day per person to the tour leader as tip". Exactly why? If is mandatory why don't directly put that "tip" on the total cost: only to reduce the final cost or increase the black market? And the most of TOs have problems to find tour leaders because the standard wage is too low...
For that group (40 people) the wage was 120€/day. Tips should be 200€ per day! If the TO directly charge the tip in the cost it become 35€ more per person (was a 7 days tour): it could offer 250€ as daily salary to the tour leader and gain 70€ more per person! A little increase in a cost that was probably around 2500€, more incomes for the TO, much more happy the tour leader.
OK: I have contributed today to reach the Nigel's post! Now I go to the Ferrari museum.
The charges added to the bill at the end separately instead of being built in the price of the item are a marketing strategy. These charges may consist of (depending on the locality):
1. Coperto
2. Service charge
3. State Sales tax (in Italy the 10% VAT must be included in the menu price therefore it is not added later)
4. Living wage charge of 5% to 10% (very popular now in restaurants at least here in California)
5. Gratuity (15%-25%)
In America we don’t have the number 1 and 2 added separately (but they could become popular here too one day) but we have the items 3 to 5, which collectively could add 25-40% to the listed price in the menu.
By having those items added later, the listed menu price remains artificially low and not reflective of the actual price.
It is a marketing strategy amply used by utility companies, for example, which add various fees to the cost of the kWh (energy distribution charge, energy generation charge). That allows utility companies to advertise a low cost per kWh, which is not reflective of the actual price you pay. The same is used by car dealerships, which add additional charges (like destination charges, documentation charges, title charges etc). They are all marketing gimmicks that inflate the final price you pay, but which allow vendors to advertise a lower base price, in the case of restaurants the listed price in the menu, in the case of tour operators the tour price.
I would be for laws forcing vendors to list the price inclusive of everything. Therefore the $30 dish on the menu would need to appear $40, which is what you will actually end up paying for it.
I've never heard of a living wage fee before, or just never bothered to look that closely. What's the point of leaving a tip then?
Allan
Here is an example of the living wage add on (read the small print at the bottom of the menu). It is becoming increasingly popular in high end restaurants here in California (and maybe elsewhere).
It is a marketing gimmick, as I explained above, with the added benefit of the “virtue signaling” that comes with it, which basically makes you feel good about paying an additional 5% over the listed price, for the purpose of creating a better world. I’m surprised they are not calling that “poverty elimination charge”.
Expect also an additional add on charge for “climate change fight charge” of an additional 5% added to the bill, coming to a restaurant near you.
Importing the UScustom of tipping 20% to Italy is distorting the service culture. It's like the importation of McD's and Burger King - they replace Italian or other native businesses with foreign invasion businesses. I certainly agree that Italians deserve the opportunity to eat the kind of unhealthy garbage that leads to 35% of US residents being obese. But I don't patronize these foreign invaders.
When we are tourists, we go to other countries to learn from them, not to import our bad habits. That's why I do not tip. Tipping is a pernicious and bad US practice. Many in the US do not like it. So, why, when we go to a country which has a different system, do we persist in bringing in US practices?
I loathe tipping --- it feels weird to hand some other adult a paltry amount of money to tell them you thought they did a good job, like giving treats to train a dog. It's implying that someone is not a professional and has no intrinsic pride in their work. And if a worker hints or begs or acts like your best buddy for tips, aren't they demeaning themselves?
The only letter-to-the-editor I ever wrote was when someone asked in the newspaper how much they should "tip" their child's daycare teacher. A daycare teacher literally has your child's life in their hands and if a few extra bucks motivates them to do a better job, they shouldn't be a teacher. (I'm a retired teacher.)
So, anyway, my husband and I are always so happy to NOT be tipping while in Italy --- never gave a tip, never been asked for one in any way. At home, we are generous tippers, but only for workers for whom it's traditional, and, also since COVID, for a few more of the front line workers.
I agree with Roberto that hidden costs and all the nickel-and-diming that goes on is a pain. And I agree with everyone who is saying that we should not be polluting Italy with our tipping culture.
Again … some native born Italians I know who go out a lot tip. Like many things, other countries follow American’s lead.
Many people tip maids in hotels, guys who way their cars, etc too.
why would you tip somebody to weigh your car? why would you even weigh your car?
Like many things, other countries follow American’s lead.
Oh my god.
Apologies to all of our friends from Italy, France, Germany, Norway, Croatia, Denmark, Belgium, England, etc, etc, No, many of us do not want you to "follow our lead", whatever that means. It ain't all that great. It's more interesting to experience how you do you, and what travel is all about. IMHO, I wish we followed some of the better practices of our friends abroad.
Yes. They definitely know not to follow our lead.
Like many things, other countries follow American’s lead.
Wow, just wow. You remind me of a past poster formerly known as Spindler.
I doubt they will follow the lead on this one. So far I don’t know many Italians who tip significantly (more than a few €€) at a restaurant. I know of a couple of ultra rich friends of mine who do (or at least I’ve seen them do it). But is part of their rich people pompous arrogance to make feel workers like slaves
Like many things, other countries follow American’s lead.
Nothing short of cringe-worthy, that!
I don’t about cringe worthy. Every country does dumb things. They should do their own dumb things rather adhere to our dumb things - but it would be just as bad copying Brits, Aussies, French, etc.
As for tipping I think it’s right - just not excessively as has shoved down our gullets by the wait staff industrial complex. They work harder at McDonalds with no tip.
Any Italian website you read will tell you that Italians, when they leave any tip at all at a restaurant, leave an amount that is just a round up amount. So if a couple spends €55 or €56, they might leave €60, but I guess €5/€55 is indeed almost 10%. I’ve read, and also witnessed, that some restaurants put a cash tip jar near the cash register. This was done because Italians generally don’t pay the bill at the table but rather pay at the register on the way out. I’ve also read that Italians tip restaurants even less now, especially after the pandemic, because paying in cash a rounded up amount and leaving the change on the table is becoming more rare, as many payments are made by card now, and Italian card slips don’t give the option to add a gratuity.
So you are free to believe the anecdotal evidence of the Italians you asked, but the literature says otherwise.
Frankly I consider the tipping culture wrong for all the reasons mentioned in the Washington Post article I linked in one of my previous comments above. And if we should feel obliged to tip a restaurant waiter why not the city bus driver who safely drives us in Rome or the mechanic who fixes our car or the rental car attendant when we pick up our rental? Most workers provide a service, but somehow only some are entitled to tips? Why not all of them? In the end there is no reason other than the vestiges of some ancient custom when workers were largely slaves of the privileged rich.
The term "bubble" implies a small, insignificant, and transitory aberration. But I think you would find that most Americans live in large urban centers. One source I found suggests CA equals the population of 20 states put together. I am also confident you would find the urbanization rate has steadily increased. I would hazard a guess that 80+% of those Americans who travel to Europe are city dwellers
Are you arguing that we should compare the tips a waitress makes in the Greasy Spoon off the Interstate in Arkansas with a bilingual waiter in Paris in an elegant restaurant?
And the final words is not "do whatever you want". Its be a reasonable ambassador for your country by respecting local traditions.
There is probably no rule that you can't take your shoes off, put your feet up on the table, and proclaim the food tastes like it came out of the backside of a horse. But I think we would agree thats rude - just as refusing to tip at all after excellent serve
Are you arguing that we should compare the tips a waitress makes in the Greasy Spoon off the Interstate in Arkansas with a bilingual waiter in Paris in an elegant restaurant?
Why is tipping in France in this discussion? France is different than Italy.
more sophisticated and educated Italians seem to indeed give decent tips of 10-20%.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
Are you arguing that we should compare the tips a waitress makes in the Greasy Spoon off the Interstate in Arkansas with a bilingual waiter in Paris in an elegant restaurant?
Well no, because their salary structures are completely different. Because they are in the United States and France, not because she is in Arkansas.
