Thoughts/Help on 16 Day North to South Itinerary

Hi.
I’m sorry to tell you this, but your itinerary has too many cities.
Being your first trip to Italy, take more time in the cities that interest you most.
Will this be your first and only trip to Italy? Don’t you hope to make it the first of several?
Our first trip only had 10 days and we spent 2 nights Venice, 3 nights Florence, 5 nights Rome.
There are so many things to see in these 3 alone.
I’d like to see you streamline your itinerary.
By the way, we are trying to figure out our itinerary too. We are on our 2nd trip this year and it’s in the north. So, I’m currently trying to figure out after Milan and Lake Como if I should spend 2 nights each in Torino, Verona, and Bologna...or should I cut one and spend 3 nights in the other 2.
I remember last year that 2 nights in Venice left us feeling rushed.
This is all to tell you that I know how hard it is to decide what to cut

Anyway...I'm beginning to think I sound like a a maniac defending the idea of staying in Milan for 3 nights, so I'll pipe down :-)

Well, get ready to defend something else: all those "one night stands". :-)

Note sure if you've been to Europe before, but your pace seems way too fast. Almost every day looks like this...

1. Day N: Train to . Sleep there
2. Day N+1: Train to . Sleep there.
3. Repeat

Even with the efficiency of trains, and the relatively short distances, picking yourself up and moving to another base consumes time and energy. With this kind of pace, you never get a full day in these places - you get part of an afternoon and an evening.

I would suggest you slow down, eliminate some of these "one night stands". And I suspect others here will suggest the same.

hey sen say
your itinerary is crazy and too much. this is not a vacation but a race to see the inside of a train. you asked, you need to get a map and decide what's important and what's not, rethink this whole itinerary, northern italy or southern italy, time needed for check in/check out, train times.
aloha
PS: @dave LOL

It seems like we are all telling you the same thing.
But, some of us are hilarious. "one night stands" lol

I agree with other replies-you are trying to do too many different cities. I totally understand the desire to see more. BUT what you are actually doing is seeing more of the inside of trains and train stations. Take out a stop (or 2) and add days to Florence and maybe Rome. We spent 10 days in Rome(3N), Florence(4N) and Cinque Terre(2N) (ok, and 1 night in Ercolano but it was supposed to be 2, not our fault) and that was moving around a lot. 1 night stays are not great, 2 is ok, 3 is the best (imho). You will not be bored. And you may have too many day trips-do you want to spend so much time on trains? Trying to help, promise you that you will not regret slowing down and actually enjoying the places you go. You also have to believe you will be back. (That helped me!) Good luck-Italy is magical!

Any help/insight is appreciated !

Either add 10-14 days to your trip ( hard to call what you propose a 'vacation') or take the pruning shears to the number of places you are zipping past.

Wow, this sounds like the old Mille Miglia auto race. How fast can you cover 1,000 miles? Sterling Moss did it in 10 hours, 7 minutes, 48 seconds in a Mercedes 300SLR. Your itinerary seems like a modern version of that 1957 race!

Italy is a place to be savored. Tasted. Absorbed. Digested. You’ll go to (but not see) a lot of places and clock a lot of miles and waste a lot of time checking into and out of hotels. Get a good travel guide book. See what’s important to you and take your time. Dolce far niente.

On the positive side -- day trip to Ravenna from Bologna is wonderful!
And when you get to Rome on day 11 you will have time to do laundry and have it dry before you get on another train. That should hold you for the rest of the trip. I'm hoping your checked bags are small/light and your carry-on's are personal-item sized (not 28" checked plus 22" carry-on's -- you will be on a LOT of trains.)
Are you flying home from Naples ?
Enjoy your first trip to Italy (it probably won't be your last.)

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I'm back to the drawing board.

Before my first RS guided tour I was a skeptic, but now I am a firm believer in one carry-on ONLY for a two week European adventure. I love traveling so light, and it's so much easier to lift one light bag up/down bus/train steps and pull over very uneven cobblestones. Europe is not as accessible as in the USA, and in many hotels and public areas elevators are non-existant or really hard to find. In train stations, you may exit one train and need to go down a steep stairwell to go under the tracks and come up a steep stairwell to meet your connection track.
Altho this is not your question, when I saw your proposed itinerary, the first thought I had was how much luggage lifting you would be doing, almost every day!
And especially in Italy, with the pickpockets at train stations, [and elsewhere], the more you're paying attention to your luggage, the less attention you're paying to wallets and purses. In fact, I never carry a purse in Europe: I wear the Exofficio or Scottevest jackets and vests with INSIDE zipper pockets for valuables.
Good luck!

Just to add a thought. I arrived in Milan went straight to Venice 3 Nights. Then went to Florence 3 nights, then Siena, 2 Nights, then to Milan 1 Night. I had 10 days. I was EXHAUSTED. You have 17 days. Look at the train times between each destination. You basically lose the day travel between destinations. The best advise I got was plan to return, so do the "your must sees" in this trip, without making it seem like it's the great race. Enjoy planning!

I agree. Figure out what types of things you are especially interested in seeing. Spending a few days in main cities will allow you to explore and discover more enjoyably. If you like art, consider a few days in Florence.

Thoughts on Itinerary 2.0 are appreciated. We cut out the South:

Day 1 - 9:35 am Arrive in Milan - Sleep in Milan

Day 2 - Day trip to Lake Como - Sleep in Milan

Day 3 - Leave Milan - Train to Verona - Store bags at station - Leave Verona - Sleep in Venice

Day 4 - Venice - Sleep in Venice

Day 5 - Train to Bologna - Sleep in Bologna

Day 6 - Visit Parma and Modena - Sleep in Bologna

Day 7 - Train to Florence - Sleep in Florence

Day 8 - Florence - Sleep in Florence

Day 9 - Drive to Pisa - Drive to Lucca - Drive to Spezia - Train to Monterosso - Sleep in Cinque Terre

Day 10 - 12 - Cinque Terre - Sleep in Cinque Terre

Day 13 - Train from Cinque Terre to Genoa - Sleep in Genoa

Day 14 - Genoa - Sleep in Genoa

Day 15 - Train Genoa to Milan - Sleep in Milan

Day 16 - 10:15 am Fly Home from Milan

Your reboot is almost as bad as your original plan. Suggest you purchase Rick Steves Italy 2018 and take his suggestions for an Italy trip. You'll be much happier.

What's Rick Steves Italy 2018?

Have you plotted out all your proposed travels and figured out the transit/transport between each? I suspect not, but I may be wrong. If you have not done that, I would suggest you do so to see what time is spent 'getting' there vs 'being' there.

With as early in the day you arrive in Milan, I would go directly to Lake Como and spend a night or 2 there and clump your Milan time together at the end.

https://store.ricksteves.com/shop/p/italy-guidebook

If you have never been to Italy, this is where you should start your research. Otherwise, you are likely to waste a lot of time and money and receive rather less satisfaction that you might hope for. Buon Viaggio!

Is there a way to post pictures on the forum? I think I have a similar book, but my English isn't so good sometimes. I could post a picture of the book and maybe you could help me understand if it's the same.

I don't know of any way to post pictures to this forum, but the book is called Italy 2018 and it is written by Rick Steves. If you follow the link I posted, you can see a picture of the cover.

If your reboot of a plan has you flying in and out of Milan, then you shouldn't go south of Florence.

Arrive Milan, straight to Venice by train (2 hr 25 min), 3 nights there.
Venice to Florence by train (2 hr 5 min), 4 nights there.
Florence to La Spezia by train (2 hr 25 min), 2 nights there.
La Spezia to Como by train (4 hr), 4 nights there.
Como to Milan by train (less than 1 hr), 3 nights there.
Leave Milan.

That's still a lot of traveling to my way of thinking, but at least the train rides are not that long and don't take up a whole day, allowing you to plan efficiently. And you can easily take daytrips from each destination.

You'll have to save Rome and south for another trip. Oh, one more thing. Cut down on what you take with you--hoisting 40 lbs up on a train rack is much harder than hoisting 20-25 lbs.

Enjoy your planning!

@joe32F thank you for the concrete question about why I'm not going straight to Lake Como and saving all of Milan for the last days.

I thought about doing this, so appreciate your feedback.

My decision was based on some assumptions:

1) To travel from the airport to Lake Como I have to journey to Milan Centrale. This is 52 minutes.
2) To continue on to Lake Como is another 63 minutes.
3) My wife and I plan to only bring a carry on bag each, but after being on a plane for 12 hours I thought it would be enough to just get off the train at Milan Centrale, get our bags stored at the hotel and breathe before moving on to do some light exploring of Milan including the Duomo.
4) I have found a hotel in Milan for a much lower rate than i can find in Lake Como.
5) To travel from Lake Como to Venice I have to once again make a connection in Milan Centrale, so it didn't seem I'd be saving any time or money by moving on to Lake Como on Day 1.

I realize adding 10-20% of travel time is a good idea and have accounted for this, but these are the 'raw' numbers from italiarail.

Please let me know if I'm missing something obvious here.

Thanks very much.

@jay thanks I was thinking the same thing about no further south than Florence.

Are you mentioning this as a general guideline, or suggesting I cut out passing through Pisa ?

Thanks again.

You're still trying to do too much. For a first trip, I'd skip the Cinque Terre.

This itinerary will allow you reasonable, thought short stays. Allowing you to see most of your listed places.

Day 1. Arrive Milan MXP. Train Malapensa Express to Milano Centrale 52 min. Then go directly to Venice. You're going to be tired, so this day is basically a waste. Use it to reach your furthest location.
Train. Milano Centrale-Venezia S Lucia. (2 hr 25 min)

Day 2. Venice.

Day 3. Venice.

Day 4. Venice-Verona. (1hr 10 min) late afternoon train to Bologna. (50min)
Edit. Forgot to add left luggage.

http://www.grandistazioni.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f6206dab180eb110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD

Day 5. Bologna

Day 6. Bologna day trip to Parma
(55min) afternoon to Modena
(29 min) evening train to Bologna.
(27 min)

Day 7. Bologna-Firenze SMN (35min)

Day 8 Florence. Day trip to Pisa
(1hr)

Day 9. Florence.

Day 10. Florence. Day trip to Lucca
(1hr 19 min).
.
Day 11. Firenze-Varenna (3hr 42 min).

Day 12. Varenna.

Day 13. Varenna.

Day 14. Varenna-Milan (1hr5min).

Day 15. Milan.

Day 16. Milan-MXP by Malapensa
Express. (55min) fly home.

@gerri thank you very much for this information.

I guess one thing I'm really confused about is on page 20 of the Rick Steves 2018 Italy book there is a 'Italy's Best Three-Week Trip by Public Transportation' itinerary.

In planning my itinerary I just basically hacked some of this itinerary.

Par example

Day 1 - Arrrive in Milan - Sleep in Milan
Day 2 - Milan to Lake Como - Sleep in Varenna (I made this a day trip instead to save on moving hotels and no distance/time change in travel)
Day 3 - Lake Como - Sleep in Varenna (I cut this out as Lake Como was a day trip and we don't really want 2 days there)
Day 4 - To Dolomites via Verona - Sleep in Bolzano (I cut this out as we're not including the Dolomites this time around)
Day 5 - Dolomites - Sleep in Bolzano (See above)
Day 6 - To Venice - Sleep in Venice (this is basically my day 3 where we go from Milan to Venice)
Day 7 - Venice - Sleep in Venice (Basically my day 4)
Day 8 - To the Cinque Terre - Sleep in Vernazza (Rick is crisscrossing the country east to west as he's heading down to Rome to flyout, where I'm heading south to Bologna as I'm forming a circle to get back to Milan)
Day 9 - Cinque Terre - Sleep in Vernazza
Day 10 - To Florence via Pisa - Sleep in Florence
Day 11 - Florence - Sleep in Florence
Day 12 - Florence to Sienna - Sleep in Sienna
Day 13 - Sienna - Sleep in Sienna
Day 14 - To Assisi - Sleep in Assisi (One night stand Rick !)
Day 15 - To Orvieto and Civita - Sleep in Orvieto (He's at it again!)
Day 16 - To Sorrento via Naples

Rick also provides guidelines on pages 12-18 on Must-See Destinations and how many days to allocate. Venice - Allow 1-2 days, Cinque Terre - Allow 2 - 3 days, Florence - Allow 1-2 days, etc.

So...anyway...I spent a lot of time with this book and a 2018 Lonely Planet guide that has a 2 Weeks Northern Jewels itinerary that has you traveling from Venice to Ravenna to Bologna to Florence to Pisa to Lucca to Cinque Terre. Between modifying the Rick Steve's Itinerary and the Lonely Planet itinerary I thought I was definitely on the right track.

So...I came here looking for additional valuable insight, which many of you have provided, but I'm honestly confused if I'm basing my plans on Rick's itinerary how is it I'm going so wrong?

"If I'm basing my plans on Rick's itinerary-how did I get it so wrong" depends on how much energy you have. I think Rick's 3 week itineraries by public transportation are exhausting-much more doable on a tour when someone else is responsible for getting you from one place to another. I guess we're wimps, but my daughter and I spent 2 weeks in Scotland and England (stayed in 6 different cities and did some day trips from London) and traveled mostly by train, sometimes to hotels by taxi when we had luggage, and by the end of the two weeks we didn't want to see another train, even though I'm a big fan of public transportation in Europe. For luggage, we each had a carryon and a personal item. I don't remember about trains in Italy, but the ones in England don't have a lot of space in the cars for luggage.

@cala I'm not going to Sienna...I'm not sure if you read the whole thread, or if I wasn't making sense with my poor English, but I posted Rick Steve's itinerary there where he is going to Siena in an effort to illustrate my planning process and see how I went wrong.

What you're not taking into account is that each time you change location, you in most cases, loose a half a day. Going from the station, checking into lodging, orienting yourself to the town. Since you want to stay in Milan, here's a revision of my previous itinerary. The first EDIT: (7) days remain the same.

Day 8. Florence.

Day 9. Florence-Pisa (1hr) there is luggage storage at the station. Early afternoon train Pisa-Lucca (27 min)
1 nite Lucca.

Day 10. Lucca-Vernazza. (2hr 21min).

Day 11. Vernazza.

Day 12. Vernazza.

Day 13. Vernazza-Milan (4hr)

Day 14. Milan. Day trip to Varenna.
( 1hr 03 min)

Day 15. Milan.

Day 16. Travel home.

Leaving Milan for your last stop simplifies your departure.

North’s

1) if you want to go to Como, you do not need to go from Milan Malpensa to Centrale
Instead take train from Milan Malpensa to Saronna then change train and go from Saronna to Como (Camerlata)
You should dedicate 3 days to Como, take time to tour the lake and see all the natural beauties ( lake, mountains) and very nice villas around it.
In Milan, I like going to the Scala for an opera and then the place around the Duomo and that’s it.
In Turin, I like very much the hill side (Collina), Superga Basilic with the Savoy dynasty burried there and the scenery with the special train. Cinema museum is a must and the automobile museum is also of interest. In the early evening, 6pm, go to a cafe storico ( historic cafe) and have apéritivo. Go and have a nice dinner and make sure you taste a plate of porcini’s and/or truffle ( depending the season you are going). ( 1 evening + 1 full day in Turin). An interesting thing would be to go to a football match at the Juve.
Do not miss Piazza Vittorio, Via Roma and the Gran Madre church and area ( nice ice cream at Fiorio)
Rent a car for one day and visit some of the Langhe’s region wineries. The famous Barolo wine is made there. There are also a lot of nice restaurants in the area. Spend one night so as be able to drink and taste wine in the evening but not risk being fined on the road. I’ll continue tomorrow

You do not say where (which area you will be staying in Milan, watch out the area is safe). It seems for me difficult to have a cheap hotel in Milan as you seem to suggest

From Turin ( after the Langhe visit)
I would take the train from Turin to FLORENCE where I would stay for 4 days (3 days visit for Florence and 1 day to visit Siena). I would skip, Pisa, Bologna, Ravenna Verona and C.T ( either Como or C.T, but no time to do both) and leave it for another time.
Then I would either go to Rome for 4 days or Venice for 3 days, then leave back to the US from Rome, Venice or Milano.

I would suggest you read 1-2 guide books and decide on the 3-4 most important places you want to visit, in reasonable proximity and then plan your itinerary for those days. Although I appreciate many aspects of RS’s books, his itineraries are not one of them. I completely disagree with how little time he often suggests spending in a major city or area. And I agree with what others have said - try to plan with the thought that you will return; that can help to take some of the pressure off of having to ‘see everything’ which you won’t. You want time to have a nice meal and just wander around.

Ok...I've read quite bit more and think this is the winner here:

Day 1-9: Milan
Day 8-17 Pisa

I've enrolled my wife in a class in both cities. We usually just spend our vacation at our time share in Boca Raton, so this is something really out of the ordinary for us.

The classes are going to be a real surprise. She's going to learn all about Leonardo Di Vinca in Milan and Classical Italian Thought in Pisa. I never did too good at school, so will spend my time taking in the sites of these 2 great Rennaissance wonders while she's in class.

I'd like to thank everyone for their help on making this a vacation we will never forget !

Ciao