tentative itinerary - suggestions please!

Husband thinks he may want to squeeze in a visit to Les Mees (upper Provence) I think I may want to squeeze in some Loire. Either way we need to get to Bayeux and Normandy so we can see Mont St. Michel and his St Theresa, St Joan sites. THEN at least one night in Paris so as to catch our plane at 9am. I'm almost ready to say one of two things to my dear husband. A) we need to skip Rouen and Lisieux
B) we should just wing it in the car and land where we land while driving around France. Option C is I skip the alpine expedition and/or cut back on/eliminate Cinque Terre Option D is I expand Cinque Terre and the Alpine region and forget about Alsace. HELP!!!!! Clare

Clare, You've received some great advice so far, and my suggestions are along the same lines. I can really appreciate the reasons you weren't able to travel until now, as I've been in that situation too. I can also appreciate your husband's "dictates" as Photography is also one of the most important parts of my trips. As the others have said, don't try to fit too much in or your trip will be nothing but a lot of "whistle stops" and you won't really see or enjoy it as much. As Rick frequently says "assume you will return. With such a very short trip, I'd suggest minimizing or avoiding travel by car, as it's much quicker and more efficient to travel via fast trains or budget air. It's VERY IMPORTANT to allow for adequate travel times between locations! This will usually require at least a half-day, but could require a full day in some cases. I'm assuming you've already purchased air tickets? It would have been much easier working with an open-jaw Itinerary, but I suppose it's too late for that now. In reading the information above, it appears that you've both agreed on: > Paris > Rome > Florence > Cinque Terrre The "optional" parts that haven't been decided appear to be: > Normandy > Rouen > Lisieux > Chamonix > Courmayer > Alsace / Annecy / Mulhouse What I'd suggest is for you to both sit down and agree on a list with each destination organized on the basis of "Most Important" to "Least Important". With that information, it should be possible to work out a reasonable Itinerary for you. Good luck!

Hi Clare, Less is more. If you try to pack in too much, you are likely to find that you have short-changed yourselves on your enjoyment. In Italy, moving around by train (the best way) means packing/unpacking, checking in/out, getting to/from train stations. Even a "short" train ride, like Rome-Florence, eats up a lot of time, picking up your luggage, traveling through traffic to the station, arriving in good time to buy tickets, find and board the train. . . That's half a day's sightseeing - or a leisurely, enjoyable dinner that you are sacrificing. Almost forgot to mention - the trains to/from Cinque Terre are slow and often require connections . . . more time lost.

Clare: Rick Steves has a great little video on trip planning here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wAQuliNkfI . Also, please read Europe Through the Back Door about planning. Less is more. With 18 days I'd do either France or Italy, not both. Chani makes excellent points you should take to heart. Slow down a bit and experience Europe. Don't treat her as a list of items to check off. 3 nights in a location is a minimum for my husband and me. You will long remember a great conversation over breakfast with travelers from New Zealand, or watching kids play soccer in a piazza while you have a glass of fine Italian wine. You will remember these encounters long after you have forgotten the six churches you marched through on your must-see list. Europe is a collection of experience that happen between the great sights and sites you plan around. :-)

"I'm planning my first trip to Europe." You'll be going back...so don't try to pack too much into this trip (but I know that's very, very easy for me to say LOL!). Since airline tickets are purchased (apparently), I might consider something like: Paris - 3 Normandy - 2 (N/T from Paris; perhaps flip Paris and Normandy) Rome - 3 Florence - 3 CT - 2 Chamonix area - 2 Alsace - 2 .........
(buzzer sounds) Arrrrgghhh - not enough days!!! (cont.)

(cont.) Either consider adding another week, or dropping things - perhaps the CT, all the 'little towns'...some of the 'big towns'...I can't answer that part for you. . Travel time is an huge part of the equation, so be sure to look at the train schedules, car travel time estimates, before you get too far ahead in your planning, hotel reserving, etc. I understand your husband wanting to dust off his camera, but you can find 'quaint' in larger towns, too (quaint=neat phtotographic subjects - Art Nouveau, gargoyles, etc.), so don't necessarily think you have to leave the cities for those types of subjects. For example, Paris has kept many a photographer busy for a lifetime...I'd stay there before I spent time chasing Metz and Nancy, at least for a first trip. DON'T treat this trip like a once-in-a-lifetime trip (even if you think it is); you will exhaust yourselves, and have a miserable time. (cont.)

(cont.) I'm not the watercolorist, so I can't answer this question, but I'd cut the CT, keep Alsace (it's on the way back to Paris, and it's a unique flavor in your itinerary), and still try to add a week...Every day you travel and change hotels is approximately 1/2 day lost (NOT including actual travel time) checking out/in, getting to/from the hotel and train station/car lot, etc. Plus waiting to actually settle the bill, etc. (try to do that the night before when possible; often saves time!). All of the "squeezing in" your husband wants to do will completely wreck your vacation...You have to make some hard choices...(I'm currently making some VERY hard choices in my own trip right now, so I COMPLETELY understand how fluid AND frustrating the itinerary planning can be!) Sorry this is more rambling than normal - lots of distractions around here this AM! DO get - and READ! - "Europe Through the Back Door" if you haven't already. And watch RS's "Three-part Travel Skills" videos, available to watch on this site (either on Hulu, or YouTube).

Thanks for the advice! Vernon, I tried to get open jaw but I found that the cost was around 800 dollars more per ticket. Originally it seemed a good idea to fly in to Paris and then out of Rome. I even looked at flying in to London and taking the train across to get to Normandy and then onward but in every possible scenario the cost was just too good to fly round trip in to CDG. And I thought about not using the car too. I'm still undecided on that regard. Although I do see your point, Ken, and it is very difficult to gauge distance using Google Earth. Well, the computer gauges it but it can't take in to account stops and traffic and getting lost :) Benefits of a car? Well, it fits our normal travel mode here in the southern US. We very much like to travel the back roads and explore. It allows us to have all our gear with us and we can stop and shoot pictures as we wish. Last night I had decided that maybe we should just wing it between Chamonix and Normandy, cruising in a westward direction without a real itinerary. Benefits of the train? Speed. The time can be used to offload pictures, study the guide books, relax and digest our experiences. I'm currently reading the Back Door 2010. Sadly, I bought it used through Amazon and someone took Steve's advice and cut out some VERY important pages. In fact, I wish I could get someone to scan the relevant pages for me (on food, alcohol and wine in France). Another unfortunate circumstance is that the more I research the more enticing every little place seems and the more I want to go there. ...

You are right, Eileen. I will go back :) And that's what I keep telling myself. At this point I'm almost ready to put the undecided locales on slips of paper into a hat and pick out 2. I will watch all the videos suggested above this evening. Does it help that I plan to pack very light? This is the norm for us since camping is our regular routine. We're committed to carry one carry on size back a piece. That should make the train travel easier. Sigh! It's overwhelming! Merci, Grazie! I'll report back what we decide :)
Clare

Ack! Vernon = Ken. But you knew that didn'tcha ;) Sorry.

Car vs. train...I am also a professional photographer who has traveled to Europe many times and there is nothing more disheartening to me than whizzing by the wonderful field of lavendar or the field of sheep and not being able to stop on a train. I go to Europe to photograph and having the car and taking the 'road less traveled' is what makes me return over and over. Sometimes the car can be a hassel, but the benefits far outweigh the negatives. As for a place to get inspiration for watercolors...there is a tiny town a few miles from San Gimignano called San Donato..there is a vineyard, a little church and two small hotels, but when I arrived to that town a few years ago as I drove around the last curve there was a group of artists scattered about the town painting with their easles! It was like a scene from a movie! Never would have seen that from the train. Being a photographer I also need my quiet time away from other people to just soak in the scene, and the car allows me that time. I know its not for everyone, but it leaves me such freedom to just take off with my stuff and my camera and see where the road leads me. No car though in cities like Florence, Rome, Paris, etc..but those are not my favorite anyway...I like them, but without the villages and markets and the drive along the sea I would not feel like I really saw Europe or experienced its people.

I know exactly what you mean, Terry Kathryn. I envision myself being incessantly frustrated by the opportunities I will miss by train. I actually thought of renting a car the whole way and paying to park outside of Rome and Florence. And I still may look into getting a car from Florence onward to Courmayeur and getting another car in France. For me and Walter (I take picture to paint from, he makes pictures www.walterbeckham.com or walterbeckhamphotography.blogspot.com/). Our usual expeditions are me driving and him looking out the window, pondering. We stop when he cranes his neck around and gets that look like, "I saw something back there." Or when I see something that I know will translate well in watercolor. Even in the little towns and cities. I don't have to see it all. I just want a chance to see it. Observe the architecture, the lay of the city, people watch. That's what we do in New Orleans. Do you know I've been visiting New Orleans for 15 years and only went to a museum twice - once to take my father to a Jefferson/Napoleon exhibit. And another time to take my nephew to the WW2 museum. Generally, we browse around the French Quarter, take a trolley ride and shoot and explore at will. Clare

I'd agree with the other comments that you risk spending most of the time packing/unpacking and travelling. You want to do 13 towns in 2 countries in 18 days... it's about 2500 miles of travel per Google maps. Relax! You don't have to see everything in one trip! I'd pick a couple of areas where you want to spend time, find a good base to stay in each area and explore from there. Paris is dead at the end of August / beginning of Sep, so I'd get the train to Normandy, rent a car and pick somewhere central to stay in the area. Get the train back to Paris & fly to Florence. Again, find somewhere central, rent a car. Drive to Cinque Terre. Do Siena, Volterra, San Gimignano. Forget Rome for this trip 8 hours of driving you don't need. Fly back to Paris. Spend the rest of the time there before you head back. Everyone will be back from "les vacances", shops, restaurants etc. will be open again.

About your luggage question, Clare - I find that trying to fit everything into a small bag is harder than tossing everything into a larger one. As far as train travel, it doesn't matter if it's 21" or 25" - though it might make a big difference in a rental car. Find out what you are renting. Generally cars in Europe are smaller than in the U.S. Though it might not apply in the places you will be, often suitcases, or especially camera bags, in the back seat of a parked car is an invitation to an incident that would truly ruin your trip. And seriously consider investing in a GPS of your own or as a rental add-on. Otherwise, the non-driver is likely to spend most of her/his time navigating instead of enjoying the scenery.

Clare, Regarding the car rental question, IMHO you DON'T have time to take the "road less travelled" as was suggested in an earlier reply, given the amount of territory you plan to cover. With only a very short 18-days extending from Normandy to Rome, the only way this will work (again IMHO) is with well planned fast trains or budget air. Your time will be more limited given that you have to travel back to Paris for the return flight. From a logical point-of-view, this would seem to leave two choices: 1.) Reduce the number of stops and focus more on a smaller geographical area, which would be more feasible with a car in that time frame. 2.) Use precisely planned public transport and perhaps increase your budget to allow open-jaw flights. With only 18-days, this will still only allow a brief look at the places you'll be visiting, but you'll be able to cover more territory in that time frame and minimize your travel times. Be sure to check any electronic gear that you're traveling with, to ensure it's designed for use on 220VAC electrical systems. You'll also need the appropriate Plug Adapters. Good luck!

Chani, I don't foresee any trouble fitting my stuff in a small bag. I'm pretty low maintenance. I've spent all my life camping and backpacking or horse camping. Once upon a time I could fit everything I needed for a 5 day camping trip into a saddlebag. But I think your advice on the GPS is spot on. That would relieve Walter and me from some of the anxiety of unfamiliar road signs and worries that we are misreading the map. My husband doesn't leave his camera bag visible in the car here in the US! Thieves abound everywhere in the world. Walter is very conscientious of his gear. I imagine he will do like he does here, if he's concerned or he can't tuck it somewhere inconspicuous he'll just sling it over his shoulder and carry it with him. Clare

Clare... I think we probably have a similar 'travel philosophy'.. I visit very few museums even though I love art. I can only handle about 2 hours, then, what I really want to see is the areas that inspired the artists..the hills of France, Giverney, the cafes of Paris, the Tuscan vineyards. I can think of dozens of things I have seen from my road trips and turned around and driven back for that I would have never seen from a train...well, I might have 'seen' it, but not been able to experience it. Wandering the fields of lavendar, the sunflower and poppy fields. picnics from the trunk of the car with the mountains off in the background. These are the memories of Europe that touch my heart.

Just a note about the car... I usually get it at the Florence airport if you only want it in Italy and stay at a hotel that has parking near the freeway, then take a shuttle in to Florence. Then I explore Tuscany and drop the car back in Florence before I take the train to Rome. No car needed there. Other option...just get a car at CDG as soon as you arrive and head out on an 18 day road trip and wing it! I've done that one too.
See everything you can and then end in Paris for a few days after you dump your car. I saw the website... beautiful work..your husband is going to love Europe. (you too)

Re: cars. One thing to note is that in France, Avis car rental is typically available directly inside main train stations or very close by. Have done a combo of rail and car in France, and I really like this approach. The TGV is so much faster for the long distance parts of the trip, and you get to see the countryside on the way. Then you get the full flexibility to explore locally with the car.

Hi neighbor. Our 1st trip we started with our air then backed the rest of the trip in, We did fly open jaw out of New Orleans and I'm surprised it's that much more expensive for you. We opted in through Paris out through Venice. Flying within europe made more sense. So we flew. Only wedged in Brugge, so we could fly for $99 from Brussels. But I doubt there are many bad options. Just what you prefer and what you like, You will have plenty of opportunity to take lots of great pictures. Which ever route you take. The only suggestion, be careful you leave time to enjoy Europe. It's easy to try to cram in too much. Give yourself time to enjoy a glass of wine at the Louvre. Or on the terrace of the Uffizi. Or to really look at the Doors of Paradise.
Remind yourself you can go back to see what you miss this trip.